Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

Choochtown · 01-12-2021 12:48pm

Regarding the Census, the religion question was heavily loaded to encourage people to choose their tribe.

The numbers would be vastly different if the question was:

Do you practice a religion? Y/N

If Yes please tick the box below to indicate what religion you practice.

One eyed Jack · 02-12-2021 3:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250267#Comment_118250267

The religion question isn’t any more loaded than any of the rest of the numerous questions on the census. It’s simply written the way it is because the question is used to determine religious affiliation or none among the population, not individuals adherence to or the veracity of their faith or anything else. The way it’s written makes it easier to compare to the answers given in previous census in order to see trends in the data, there’s no conspiracy behind how the question is worded.

What you’re suggesting is asking a different question entirely, one that frankly, assumes either people who aren’t religious are a bit thick, unusually lazy, or just not bothered. If any of those assumptions were true, I don’t see how you imagine there would be any vast difference in the numbers.

Lobbying to have the question changed is less about statistical accuracy, and more about representation of people who are not religious in the census data. In practical terms though I don’t see it making any real difference in policy when data can be drawn from numerous, far more relevant, reliable and accurate data sources such as the primary and post-primary online databases which are intended to replace the annual school census - it’s less about the numbers of bums on seats in the pews, and more about the numbers of bums on seats in the classroom. It’s worth taking a look at the drop down list for religion -

Religion (drop-down list)

Roman Catholic

Church of Ireland (incl. Protestant) Presbyterian

Methodist, Wesleyan

Jewish

Muslim (Islamic)

Orthodox (Greek, Coptic, Russian) Apostolic or Pentecostal

Hindu

Buddhist

Jehovah's Witness

Buddhist

Lutheran

Atheist

Baptist

Agnostic

Other Religions

No Religion

No consent

https://assets.gov.ie/109019/d6c3ac3d-6afa-4f62-bd54-85f56eeab349.pdf

The question as it’s written in the upcoming census is probably more along the lines of what you had in mind, assuming of course that parents and guardians are filling out the census forms with the same honesty and integrity as they’re filling out the schools admissions forms for their children, and not just telling porkies in order to get them into specific schools of the parents or guardians choice, for whatever their reasons may be.

It’s question 12 -

https://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/census2021/Sample_Census_2022_Household_Form_English.pdf

Choochtown · 02-12-2021 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118254843#Comment_118254843

Thanks for that OeJ.

I do think it's an improvement on the 2006 Census where the question starts with the assumption that everyone has a religion.

It was very blunt: "What is your religion?"

Now they've added "if any" to the end of it which is a slight improvement.

But, compare it with the next question: "Can you speak Irish?" then it has the follow up with How often?

If the religious question was of the same format it would ask: "Are you religious?" with a follow up of "What religion"

If the Irish question was worded as the religion one it would say "How often do you speak Irish?" with an option for "Never"

Given that according to the 2016 Census 48% of the population attend mass regularly and 40% speak Irish these 2 factors are not dissimilar in size so why ask the question in a different way?

So I would argue against your opening line that "The religion question isn’t any more loaded than any of the rest of the numerous questions on the census"

Also I'm interested why you would think that people who claim not to be religious would be seen as "a bit thick, unusually lazy, or just not bothered"

Why would this assumption be made?

Would you say that anyone who ticks the "No" box to the "Can you speak Irish?" question would have the same assumptions made about them?

boardlady · 02-12-2021 4:42pm

Here's my tuppence for what it's worth .. I am non religious and we are a non-religious family. That said, there is no escaping the fact that himself was brought up a catholic and myself a protestant. The kids go to (what is really the only option locally) and it is of course an RC school. In my humble opinion, an optimal way to help instill tolerance in your child is exposure to all those differences in our society - be those differences religious, sexual, racial etc, you get it. I liked that my kids got some RC teaching - after all, having some religious teaching opens up the mind to the fact that religions are out there and are an integral part of OTHERS lives whether you follow any faith or not yourselves. One of mine even opted to make his communion as he didn't want to feel left out! I struggled a bit with this, but he has now made up his mind that he is a non-believer. He remains interested in religious class though and he enjoys the studying of different religions although he has no faith himself. Opting to 'shield' your child from all religious instruction is a sure fire way to pique their interest and, possibly an almost rebellious wish to walk with the rest of the flock! You may not be a believer or have any interest in engaging in the wider world of religions, but can you impose that on your child? They must make their own choices.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-12-2021 4:44pm

@One eyed Jack That question is much better than before. I don't know why you're going on about "porkies" on school admission forms, the baptism barrier has been abolished.

@Choochtown "Given that according to the 2016 Census 48% of the population attend mass regularly"

Eh? No question about that on the census.

@boardlady "but can you impose that on your child? They must make their own choices."

Most religious parents impose, or at least try to, and that's not seen as at all unusual. Double standards but not for the first or last time.

02-12-2021 4:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118257493#Comment_118257493

There is a difference in teaching children about all religions and indoctrinating children into one religion. Also, children getting communion so that 'they dont.feel left out' is one of the biggest problems. How will education ever become secular, when all the children keep making sacraments

boardlady · 02-12-2021 5:03pm

I'm sorry op, but as someone else mentioned, very few responders to your query have actually stated their own beliefs. You, however, have recited several catholic rituals/beliefs/incantations .. whatever you like to call them. I almost feel like you are the one doing the preaching here! I am not trying to personally attack you, and I understand that you had a simple question about how to approach your child's teacher, however, you have exposed through your posts that you have an intolerant and almost obsessive disdain for the RC religion. You are at an almost fanatical level of hatred of others' beliefs. Do you see where i'm going with this? I think your level of horror towards some of the atrocities committed by the RC church is understandable - we're all aware of what went on - but are you going to be this heavy handed with your child? She will learn of your feelings - regardless of her education - and she will make up her own mind in the end. Your intolerance is on a par with the religious fanatic itself.

RealJohn · 02-12-2021 6:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246968#Comment_118246968

I would say quite a large number go irregularly, and a larger number again go at Christmas and/or Easter. I would say that there aren’t many who tick the Catholic box on the census who never go to mass at all, and many of those who rarely go would very definitely still identify as Catholic.

RealJohn · 02-12-2021 6:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246865#Comment_118246865

It’s difficult to leave officially but it’s not difficult to select something else on the census, and most don’t.

Choochtown · 02-12-2021 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118257512#Comment_118257512

My apologies. My figures are from a 2006 RTE poll. https://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=44521

My main point was that the 2 questions (Religion and Speaking Irish) were phrased and structured differently.

There was an assumption with the religion question that the person answering practised a religion.

There was no such assumption with the Irish speaking question.

I still don't think the question on the new Census is perfect (I think it should be phrased like the one below it) but I do agree with you that it is much improved and less misleading.

02-12-2021 6:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118258080#Comment_118258080

What would you suggest they pick?

Hotblack Desiato · 02-12-2021 7:37pm

Whatever people tick on the census should have no bearing on our education system. But there is no separation of church and state in Ireland which is very unusual for a developed country.

RealJohn · 02-12-2021 10:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118258246#Comment_118258246

Whatever option best reflects their actual position. If they actively want to leave the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith, ticking the box beside ‘Roman Catholic’ definitely isn’t it. IF that’s what they want, which clearly isn’t the case for the vast majority, since they don’t do it.

RealJohn · 02-12-2021 10:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118258461#Comment_118258461

Yes there is. The state’s structures should reflect the wishes, viewpoints, and culture of its citizens though, which is why there’s a strong Catholic presence in the education system.

02-12-2021 10:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118259639#Comment_118259639

What religion are you?

That's the question, nothing else, not do you practise a religion? Not do you consider yourself religious? Nothing, just what religion are you?

Anybody who has been baptised into the Catholic church, cannot leave, therefore they tick that box. There is no option.

hopefully in the next one there will be.

One eyed Jack · 02-12-2021 11:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118256209#Comment_118256209

It was very blunt, but it follows the same format as the census in England and Wales which asks the question - what religion are you? I get that for anyone who has no religious affiliation the question is immediately jarring, as if it places an undeserved emphasis on religion, but it’s really no different than the question what is your sex? I can understand how for anyone who is non-binary, that question could be considered a leading or loaded question.

I get where you’re coming from with pointing to the previous question about the Irish language, but if the religion question were actually to follow the same format, it would still be as problematic - “are you Christian?”, as though questions about languages haven’t already been asked elsewhere in the census, and overlooking the fact that the census is available in a number of other languages besides english. If one speaks any of the over 100 languages spoken in Ireland that aren’t represented on the census, I can understand their annoyance too. It’s also an issue on the question of nationality - the presumption is that the person filling out the form is Irish because Ireland is the first tick box on the list.

Essentially, the comparison between questions you’re making is based upon your own interpretation, and that issue would be an issue regardless of how the question was worded or how many different ways there were to attempt to collect data relating to religious affiliation in Ireland. We could do like other countries such as the US and France and just not ask the question at all, but then that would also mean we would have no data on people who have no religious affiliation.

My point wasn’t about people who claim not to be religious, it was about your suggestion that the figures would be very different if the questions were different - the underlying assumption in your argument being that people who claim a religious identity even though they’re not particularly religious, are either a bit thick, unusually lazy, or just not bothered, and they would answer a different question differently which would give the answers which would support the underlying assumption in your suggestion. Because the question is subjective, and based upon self-assessment, I’m not sure you’d get the answers you want. I’m just not sure for example a Muslim who doesn’t pray five times a day is going to think this makes them any less Muslim when asked on the census about their religious practices or convictions. I would suggest the same is true for many people with regard to their religious identity - it’s entirely dependent upon their own subjective interpretation.

I would suggest that the same assumptions absolutely would be made by some people of others if there were a question on the census that asked “can you speak english?” There would be no basis for the assumption of anyone who’s first language is not english, but that wouldn’t stop anyone from making the assumption all the same. It goes back to your earlier point about tribalism - we don’t often think of things from the perspectives of other people who are different in some way from ourselves, whether it be religious identity or none, or a language which it is assumed everyone can understand already and there is no need for the census to be translated into other languages.

One eyed Jack · 02-12-2021 11:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118257512#Comment_118257512

The question really isn’t any better than before as it still assumes that people have a religious affiliation, and the “if any” is a bit of a tail end nod to people who do not have a religious affiliation. I don’t imagine having “None” as the first option on the list will have much of an impact on how the question is answered either tbh. Soon as someone reads the first part of the question, they’re likely to go looking for the option that best describes their own subjective interpretation, same as they’re likely to answer any of the rest of the questions about housing, employment, etc.

The reason I made the point about people telling porkies is because first of all it’s not a crime to lie about one’s religious affiliation in order to gain admission for their children into a school with a religious ethos, and secondly there is the fact that it’s still quite commonly believed by many people that they have to do so in the first place - they’re not aware that the baptism barrier hasn’t been a thing now for at least three years. The OP doesn’t appear to have been aware of this either -

background: it’s a religious primary school, normal enough stuff. She’s in senior infants now. Our family is atheist. Last year we didn’t bring this up for obvious reasons. But we don’t want her praying, being taught anything religious, or anything like that. Neither do we want her singled out and ostracised in the class.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-12-2021 3:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118259657#Comment_118259657

So theocracy is A-OK if a majority of those indoctrinated from birth say they want it. You'd do well in Saudi Arabia, but I have higher ambitions for my country.

RealJohn · 03-12-2021 7:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260862#Comment_118260862

Not your country, pal. It’s our country, and our country is a democracy, which is why its structures reflect what the majority want. That last post is doubly ironic since you seem to want your religion (the belief that there is no God) imposed instead, against the wishes of the majority.

RealJohn · 03-12-2021 7:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118259750#Comment_118259750

And you can select ‘no religion’ (or something to that effect. Nobody has to tick the box saying Catholic if they choose not to. Pretending that people are forced to tick the Catholic box because of the way the question is phrased is completely disingenuous, and you know it.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-12-2021 11:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260960#Comment_118260960

The sheer unadulterated arrogance of your post stands out above all. What we have we hold, might is right and minorities don't matter.

I don't have a religion, "pal", and I don't want anyone imposing a belief or non-belief in god(s) in schools. It's not much to ask in a supposedly developed country.

I must have missed that referendum on giving a church control of over 90% of our primary schools. Even if the silly census question is accepted as being accurate, that's still way out of line with the proportion of catholics in the country.

Treppen · 03-12-2021 1:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260960#Comment_118260960

Our country wants the state to indoctrinate all our children?

RealJohn · 04-12-2021 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118262705#Comment_118262705

Our country wants schools to teach what parents want taught.

RealJohn · 04-12-2021 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118261803#Comment_118261803

It’s not way out of line, it’s slightly out of line, and only because historically, it wasn’t out of line. “Silly census question” says it all. Facts don’t matter, only what you want.

You can claim you don’t have a religion, but your view that religion shouldn’t be taught in school is a religious view in itself - based on your own faith that not teaching religion is right.

Your continued attempts to play the man and not the ball (“minorities don’t matter”) just provide more evidence that you know your argument doesn’t hold up, so you’re attacking me rather than my argument.

Treppen · 04-12-2021 3:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118267672#Comment_118267672

Parents aren't a homogeneous group.

So in one school if you had a split down the middle between wanting indoctrination and not wanting it, the country as a whole supposedly wants Catholic indoctrination so that's what the school has to do!

That sounds wrong to me.

RealJohn · 05-12-2021 2:19pm

The fact that you keep saying “indoctrination” rather than “teaching” says a lot about how balanced your view is on this. You’re also making up unrepresentative scenarios to try to prove your point, which speaks to the strength (or lack thereof) of your point.