Overpopulation

Igotadose · 03-01-2022 6:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411477#Comment_118411477

Exactly the same?

Moore works for energy companies now. Guess they paid more than Greenpeace.

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Patrick_Moore#Clients

But, he's in favor of some GMO's which I support - the world is overpopulated and with resource availability shrinking, we'll delay the inevitable resource wars by providing GMO crops to fill bellies. Golden rice is a great idea.

NB: Don't have a lot of use personally for the Greenpeace hysterics. But, this isn't the 'save the whales' thread, it's about overpopulation.

Koonin's book mentions overpopulation's contribution to global warming. He's not as convinced as to the remedies is all - but overpopulation is a thing for him, too. Personally I think it's too late for the ideas being bandied about like 'carbon taxes' and 'sequestration' and Paris accords. Especially if they don't go hand-in-hand with population reduction.

c.p.w.g.w · 04-01-2022 1:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409297#Comment_118409297

Well she doesn't, if we all went vegan, without fossil fuels we would run out of farmable fertile land within 20-30 years...even at the current rate due to monocrops we are going to lose lots of farm land in the next 20 years

Pawwed Rig · 04-01-2022 1:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118415315#Comment_118415315

The implementation is someone else's problem. You can hardly expect a teenager to solve the worlds problems.

Anyway I am not endorsing Gretta Thunberg as in general I think she was a pawn used to embarrass Donald Trump and is just one voice but I am glad to live in Ireland where we have done degree of food security.

osarusan · 04-01-2022 1:33pm

It can be framed as 'over population', but it would probably be more accurately framed as 'wasteful consumerist societies'. People living in developed countries with a high standard of living (which produces serious waste) are simply not willing to take the massive hit to their living standards, and no political party within an asses' roar of power is going to advocate such policies.

There's a bit of lip service with various weak treaties which are soon broken or have their deadlines extended, but most people are pretty content to go on as they are, and governments are happy just to just kick the can down the road and hope the electorate forget about it.

Thelonious Monk · 04-01-2022 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118415377#Comment_118415377

We are net importers of food though, nearly all of the island is used to produce beef and dairy for export. Nothing can grow on our uplands because of sheep. 55% of all fruit and veg comes from North Dublin alone, goes to show how little variety there is in farming on this island. We should be looking at producing far more fruit and veg here and cutting down on meat and dairy production which is highly polluting and having drastic affects on our land and waterways.

04-01-2022 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118415468#Comment_118415468

People love to point to developed countries... as if such practices don't happen elsewhere. Living in China, I saw rampant consumerism where everything was heavily packaged, and most was wasted in the end. China has a massive food delivery industry, with every dish (rather than meal) getting its own plastic container, and plenty of plastic bags. You can see the same happening throughout most of Asia, including Vietnam and Cambodia... because it's all cheap to provide. And then people go out behind their apartments or into the countryside, to burn most of the waste from all those purchases. The same can be seen in Africa, and while I haven't been to S.America, I assume its the same there too considering their own problems with pollution.

The point being that this is a global issue. Poor nations are likely to have just as much waste as developed nations, but be lacking in the recycling or other environmental gestures that developed nations commit to in the hopes of reducing the problems involved. Developed nations consume more in the way of resources, but developing nations waste just as much (since populations are generally higher, and educational awareness/appreciation about environmentalism is much lower)

whisky_galore · 04-01-2022 3:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118415920#Comment_118415920

Ha Long Bay looks great from a distance and in blockbuster movies, up close it's full of plastic shyte, cleaned out of large fish (if you want to see fish life, try the restaurant). They can't fire up hotels fast enough for c.1 million and growing numbers of Chinese tourists.

Buy anything from a needle to an anchor in SE Asia and you will get the obligatory free plastic bag with it. There's a fetish for plastic there so much so they cover furniture with it so it stays clean. So yes, everyone needs to pull together or else it's a waste of time.

donaghs · 04-01-2022 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118405026#Comment_118405026

The world cannot sustain population growth at its present rate - e.g. going from 6 to 7 billion between 2000 and 2011. 7.9 billion now. Most of the growth is coming from Africa (List of sovereign states and dependencies by total fertility rate - Wikipedia) , but its a bit simplistic to suggest all these people are living in mud huts with minimal carbon footprints. People from rural areas will gravitate towards cities, and others will seek a better life in the developed world, with a developed world lifestyle. "Survival into adulthood" is clearly the norm, rather than a hope - so there is no reason to have such a high birth rate, except cultural practices.

04-01-2022 5:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118416113#Comment_118416113

So yes, everyone needs to pull together or else it's a waste of time.

But they're not going to. All my university students received classes on environmentalism as part of their high school education, doing presentations and the like, to understand the pollution in China. However, I've seen them return home, and re-embrace the traditional perspectives of how rubbish is handled, or a host of other behaviors. Chinese people (and other Asian/African nationalities) place huge importance on traditional behavior, often ignoring modern science in favor of repeating what their parents or grandparents did. Here's an example, a story I was told by one of my students, who spoke about a government expert who came to their village, who sought to change the natives habits regarding animal waste being thrown into the river/lakes nearby... in spite of the authority/power that the government has, the expert was listened to, obeyed while he was there, and the moment he was gone, the villagers returned to the past behavior, even though it was well known that vast areas of the areas around them were polluted from the waste being deposited. I've seen similar happen in parts of Africa, where infrastructure/facilities where installed to handle waste (animal waste in particular) but the locals avoided using them, in favor of doing what they've always done before.

The point is that around the world, in developing nations, especially in the rural areas, people will continue with what they've always done, regardless of education and scientific progress. It's one of the reasons humans are going to have so many problems with water, and water sources in the near future. Even, in Ireland, I know that many people in West Galway will burn most of their rubbish, even though they know it's bad for the environment. It's what they've always done, and shipping rubbish away isn't terribly practical. It's well known that factory (and fish packaging plants) dump their waste into the sea (around Spiddal and NaForbacha), but there's little actual interest in stopping it, in spite of health warnings preventing people from using the beaches nearby.

TBH I'm very skeptical of environmentalists who seem to expect anything to really change in how humanity deals with pollution/global warming/climate change, etc. I've spent a lot of time in developing nations, and I've seen very little to suggest that anything will change there, and the developed nations "doing their bit", isn't going to matter much, when the most populated areas in the world are doing whatever they wish, and there's no realistic way of changing that.

Strumms · 04-01-2022 5:29pm

Look at bookies odds at the likelihood of countries leaving the EU..

there is now serious euro-scepticism in establishment EU states like Italy, Greece, Poland, France, and Spain

Italy are 3/1 to be the next state to leave…

All more or less to do with immigration and the absolute devastation and carnage of its impacts on those countries and their peoples…

serious financial, social, health and security implications that are now tangibly impacting the daily lives of citizens…thanks to unfettered immigration train…that is a catalyst for this over population..

the ordinary citizens of the EU are getting screwed… while those arriving and businesses in the Union are quids in….more consumers for businesses and free money, accommodation, healthcare, travel and supports for those arriving….

Too many people is not good, unsustainable and a disaster.

Thelonious Monk · 04-01-2022 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417000#Comment_118417000

If you think it's bad now wait until the mass migrations start when climate change starts to kick in more and more

Ubbquittious · 04-01-2022 6:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118410337#Comment_118410337

It depends on what it is.I used to work in a factory that made electronics, stuff 25-30 years old would come in for repair, bit of soldering and ready to go back out. Other stuff used to come in that was a few years old and due to the design was fit for the bin.

Phones are nearly all rubbish nowadays compared to how rugged they were 20 years ago. This is because of market/design trends, an enforced race to the bottom and a few other things. What is really a load of sh1te is electronics that are permanently bound to some cloud based service and after 5-10 years or whenever the company folds the device becomes worthless. There are multiple examples of this happening, twould be no harm if there was a stop put to that kind of carry on or if people could be convinced to buy non-cloud items.

Igotadose · 04-01-2022 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417286#Comment_118417286

This is another good reason why the only mitigation is population reduction. More people, more problems. The posts about traditional practices that are harmful is another reason - if you have fewer people engaging in harmful practices, you do less harm.

steddyeddy · 04-01-2022 6:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118404357#Comment_118404357

I have to laugh at things posts like this. In terms of destruction to the planet it's over population in the developed world that is the problem. Overpopulation in Africa doesn't even register. The developed world uses several times the resources that the developing world does so I'm afraid it's the west (and east) causing the problems here.

rossie1977 · 04-01-2022 7:20pm

No need to worry. Many countries are expected to see their populations halve by 2100 including China https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/7/15/population-in-more-than-20-countries-to-halve-by-2100-study

Igotadose · 04-01-2022 7:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417649#Comment_118417649

Lots of 'maybes' in the study in the Lancet that this story is quoting. And, by 2100, the damage'll be done. We're already in a temperature feedback loop due to CO2 in the oceans.

Plus the population peaks in 2064 then starts to drop, so fun and games (and floods and fires) until then.

tommybrees · 04-01-2022 7:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225433/overpopulation

Hi Bill

04-01-2022 10:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118417649#Comment_118417649

China's population growth slowed firstly due to the one child policy, but also due to the modernisation and subsequent changes to their demographics, with the movement of young people to the cities, where the costs of living were higher, thus decreasing the ability of people to have larger families (the policies on small families typically being relaxed in rural areas, even with some government incentives in place for more children in certain provinces). There's also a problem with fertility due to the high pollution, but that's a lesser concern in rural areas.

With the relatively recent blows to the Chinese economy, along with some government pressure to return people to the rural areas away from the cities (due to the need for labor in agricultural zones), we're likely going to see a new growth in Chinese population rates, because simply put, poor people tend to have more children to meet the demands of agriculture, and can usually support larger families all by themselves. (along with the older population dying off, because life expectancy isn't close to what it is in a developed nation for most Chinese people, especially if they're living in the cities where pollution remains very high)

Look at the population growth rates around the world, and it is the developing nations that have retained most of their population growth (before the cost of living and standards of living have increased to match their new higher standards)... but it's mostly nations that still have a sizable percentage of their population in or near poverty, or where a large portion of their industry is devoted to agriculture (or similar labor intensive industries).

I'd say there's plenty of reasons to be worried about overpopulation.

Markcheese · 04-01-2022 10:37pm

But also reason to fear rapid population decline - what'll europes response be to falling populations or china's ?

Is Europe going to bring in immigrants to shore up their economies ,pay pensions and run everything ? How will that play out - ? Social unrest - increased rasism ?or careful integration ..?

Will Russia or china happily take in large numbers -or quietly fade away ? Unlikely ?

Is The Hispanic population in the states going to keep climbing - and how'll the hardcore republican take that ?

Arthur Daley · 04-01-2022 10:53pm

If Europe's population is naturally scheduled to fall, then surely these onerous pension payments (which seem to be always crippling the place...mmm) will also fall.

The countries are cheaper to run with fewer people. No? Am I missing something here.

04-01-2022 11:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418662#Comment_118418662

Pensions are unsustainable regardless of the population due to rising costs and expectations in living standards (older people costing more due to demands on health and daily care). Europe will likely continue to bring in immigrants because all the major nations continue to rely on their manufacturing base, which tends to need relatively unskilled labor (but people want better standards of income, so they leave as their education increases, thus requiring more unskilled labor to enter the nation). But yes, social unrest, and increased racism is highly likely across all of Europe, as the burden for supporting increased costs will fall on the middle classes rather than the immigrants, and so anger/bitterness will increase.

Integration and assimilation aren't on the books. Not really. No European nation has any kind of effective system in place towards integration even after 30-40 years of needing to deal with it. Multiculturalism is the main objective, where foreign cultural groups have the right to retain their own identities, and hold no loyalty to their host nations, even after naturalisation. That's changing somewhat now, but it's still the norm for most European nations.

The US is a clusterF... it's going to be a mess regardless of what happens.

Quantum Erasure · 05-01-2022 4:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418765#Comment_118418765

Spain between 1950 and 2015, immigration of people in their 20 in the 2000's (and a corresponding rise in births) but a lower birth rate generally will lead to a top heavy 'pyramid' in the next 20 years

Strumms · 05-01-2022 5:08am

Population decline isn’t forecasted for Ireland …the ESRI predictions are for rapid population growth in fact.

28,000 houses, sorry new houses per year are needed just to keep up with population growth. The fûck will they be built?

net immigration per year will be over 15,000 people. Over 41 people per day, to be fed, accommodated, housed eventually, gifted medical cards…

Danzy · 05-01-2022 5:42am

A largely unacknowledged cause of the civil war in Syria was its run away population growth, doubling every 20 years.

No country could provide the opportunities, structures or supports to deal with that.

Much of Africa has that same unsustainable growth but without the resources Syria had or even near had.

Arthur Daley · 05-01-2022 11:02am

Afghanistan has grown a lot too since the US invasion in 2001. This context is never provided in news reports.

Arthur Daley · 05-01-2022 11:09am

But surely once these population pyramids in Spain or elsewhere are done, they are done.

We know the overwhelming majority will not survive their 80s and countries will revert to their sustainable long term population levels. The 1970 to 2000 period could be viewed as a bubble rather than the norm.

This concept is talked about by the green lobby every day. We must train ourselves off big cars, air travel etc. That was a temporary, unsustainable phase they say.

rossie1977 · 05-01-2022 11:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118419558#Comment_118419558

Older study had Irelands population increasing to just over 6 million in 2100 but new study has the population peaking in 2057 and dropping to mid 4 million range by 2100.

Both show the over 65 population ballooning though over next 80 odd years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118418537#Comment_118418537

We aren't going to see a rise in Chinese population or big movement out of cities to rural areas. Not happening.

Just look at a population density map of China. You can basically draw a line right down the middle of the country. Everyone live east of the line while nobody lives west and for good reason as much of that area is the highest mountains in the world and the driest deserts.

05-01-2022 1:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118420089#Comment_118420089

I don't think people realise just how big Chinese provinces are. The Chinese population has never been heavy in the West, with the majority living in the Eastern provinces, because that's where the majority of their agricultural zones are. People tend to focus on the cities because they see the huge numbers living there, but each province holds far more than the cities, encompassing huge areas of arable land. The move from city back to rural wouldn't be hard to accomplish, and is already happening in any case, because the promises made to bring people to the cities have failed to manifest, and also the degree of corruption/abuse of people is far higher there. There's been a rake of scandals in recent years relating to the abuse of young women moving to the cities to work in the factories, and the one thing you can be assured of, is the pressure by families on others to keep their children safe. It was only the heavy expectation of financial success, and the expectation of greater freedom that lured young people to the cities, but quite often, people experience worse conditions in the cities, and with the government crackdown or return to traditional values, there's actually less freedom in the cities.

Time will tell... but let me point this out. When I first starting teaching at universities in China, most of my students would have wanted to graduate and move to the bigger cities for the opportunities represented. However, considering the sheer amount of unemployment (in the last few years) most of my students have been moving back home to the smaller cities, and rural areas.. also because they see the rural areas (and smaller urban areas) as being better for raising a family.

zom · 05-01-2022 3:41pm

"Children born in developed countries produce far more CO2 waste than in the 3rd World."

So destroying 1st World economies and culture will be environmentalists solution?

Igotadose · 05-01-2022 3:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118421673#Comment_118421673

There's no 'solution.' There's only mitigation. Without population control and growth reduction (soon, not in 2100), it's all over save the shouting.

Overpopulation

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