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ESRI confirms Irish welfare dependent population is TWICE that of Germany or France

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    I have to hand it to you.

    That post is pitch perfect PC from start to finish.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This makes little actual sense.

    You talk about how its great that people can earn the national average wage, along with getting social housing... and then leap to those who need "our" help. You're talking the old style of communist/socialist models for housing the population, ignoring just how prone they were to corruption, inefficiencies and abuse. Besides that any system where people on the national average wage supposedly need or should receive social housing makes a mockery of any kind of personal responsibility in financing, and essentially reinforces the nanny state model. I suspect you're also ignoring who would ultimately end up paying for all this, hoping that your preferred groups wouldn't be bothered.

    Social housing should be there for those who are definitely in need. Not people who can afford a house in the countryside, and commute to work. Your advocacy supports all those people in Dublin who can't bear to leave, because they want to live close to their parents, or whatever idiotic reason that prevents the natural pushing of people out of high cost areas, when they can't afford to live there. The natural evolution of cities is that people are pushed to the suburbs when they can no longer afford the costs of the city itself... and then they're pushed out of those suburbs, as the value increases. People have the choice to step up, get the required education/skilled/employment (which is available through government initiatives) or move further out to areas where they can afford to buy. Part of the reason we have a housing crisis is people like yourself who believe people shouldn't have the leave, with the government/taxpayer picking up the bill for this artificial resistance to movement.

    You're assuming some kind of high moral position by claiming you're representing the less fortunate but you're not really. If anything you're decreasing the resources available to provide for the less fortunate by giving to people who don't really need those supports. No doubt you're one of those posters who never question where the money comes from, believing that the State can endlessly provide for everyone, without any consequences to the majority. Your last comment about the rich failing to pay their fair share reinforces this impression. The vast majority of people in Ireland are middle class, and our "rich" segment are a relatively small percentage.. and they already pay a hefty amount in taxes. Just as the middle class do. This is just more of the traditional jealousy towards those who were born into better circumstances, and the desire to make them pay for it.

    The problem isn't that the rich aren't contributing enough. The problem is that posters, like yourself, have this inaccurate perception of Ireland, and believe it's capable of (and should) providing a standard of living that only the bigger or more wealthy (with generational long-term wealth) can provide.. and even those nations are struggling to do so. Ireland has done well economically, but times are changing... and honestly, expectations such as the above are likely to break the camels back, creating more and more costs to the economy without seeking to find any kind of balance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 990 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    Why does that not happen in other countries like Germany and France? Explain the gap in workforce participation rates please between us and other countries. Clearly the system is discouraging and dis-incentivising low paid work and if you disagree give us a detailed analysis why rather than telling us how you feel.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,438 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Maybe you should have asked those questions BEFORE you made up stuff about it being easy to get on disability allowance? Maybe you should have spoken to some people with disabilities who've actually been through the process about how 'easy' they found it?

    Maybe it's not so easy to get doctors to struck off because the stories about them fraudulently signing off on disability applications didn't actually happen?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,438 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Have you spoken to many people who've gone through the process of getting and keeping DA? Give it a try.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Have you?


    No doctor wants the equality authority or some other QUANGO accusing them of discrimination, much easier to say Tim Pat is disabled



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,438 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Yep, loads of them. You should try researching what happens in the real world, rather than in your imagination. The Equality Authority hasn't existed for about a decade btw.



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Given my background I see a lot. Both parents were youngest in big families so some of my first cousins are already grandparents.

    In the last 10 years, and this is no exaggeration, 75%+ of my cousins who aren't working have had their kids diagnosed ADHD. I can think of half a dozen others who got council houses within a year or turning 18. I know plenty are on the sick, one who was working under the table in a pub (50+ hours a week) then got on the sick.

    My sister used to believe the "no such thing as a free house" thing. But as I said, her and her mates are hitting their 30s, couple of mates she went to school with don't work, both have a kid or 2 and literally a brand new house for one of them. Well, almost new. It was rented to someone before for about 18 months. And because of that they got 3 new beds, new sitting room furniture and kitchen appliances. Obviously her and her fella had to "pay their way". Yeah 100 quid towards about €5k of stuff. The rest of her friends, mostly met in college, are trying their best to get on a deeds to a property before they then start trying to have a kid.

    I've seen it the whole time growing up. Kids with scum parents who never lifted a finger but the parents would go crying to the dispensary and send them off to the Gaeltacht for the summer. Unfortunately my parents had a bit more pride.

    I saw cousins who dropped out of school get all expenses paid trips to the States and Canada to work/train for a while. They got paid for it, all costs covered and their dole was sitting building up for them when they got home. But if I don't find a government doc showing it then it never happened right?


    As I was saying earlier about standards of living... there is no justification for spending like we do on "the poor". If you're not working then a 2nd hand sofa will do. I make about the average wage and have to pay my own rent so in my current place I got the cheapest bed and mattress I could and got a 2nd hand sofa for 50 quid. That's life. Since when should everyone be entitled to brand-new **** just because they want it?

    I see the moaning on Facebook. The "this is disgrace" when they're expected to pay for or do something themselves. I see (literally) grannies in their 20s and more in their 30s having offspring who despite growing up in welfare situations have a nice place to live, better clothes, toys and electronics than anyone I speak to on a regular basis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    often denying whats plainly staring you in the face is a pre requisite of being a good progressive , otherwise you might form " awful opinions "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    Humphreys trying to change the way social welfare benefits are paid.

    Payment back to post offices to prevent fraud. Definitely agree with this. Of course not for a disability payment.

    Payment to be scaled on your previous employment. Not sure how this will work with people who have never worked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    They get the minimum (or what it is currently)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭malinheader


    I can hear the cries of discrimination already if this was going to happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,078 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    You would imagine that the country is not perpetually running a deficit the way some posters are suggesting further and further giveaways. We have the greatest standard of living in human history but we still feel aggrieved and entitled to more. A man on the dole in Ireland is richer than most people in Mumbai, why does he deserve that? Because of the location of his birth?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,595 ✭✭✭Damien360


    Not a great comparison although I see your point. The man on the dole in ireland is much better off than someone on minimum wage. The level of entitlement is out of control. Nobody should be destitute but we are doing the very opposite and making people who choose not to work very comfortable. Pensioners roared for years that they were entitled to their lot due to the taxes they paid over many years and I agree with them. What’s the reasoning for the man on the dole for life having all the trappings of his working counterparts for none of the labour or cost to him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    How many people who could be working but choose a life living on welfare are there and how are they achieving this 'good life'?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭enricoh


    No self respecting welfare lifer is on jobseekers - too many pesky courses n meetings to have to go to. Disability is where it's at, you'll be left alone til the pension kicks in!

    https://davidmcwilliams.ie/the-mystery-of-disability/

    Over the past few years an extraordinary development has occurred in Ireland, which has gone broadly unnoticed. Tens of thousands of people have left the labour force due to disability. This has occurred despite the fact that the workforce, in general, has become younger and healthier on most measures and despite the fact that there have been significant positive steps towards reducing discrimination against disabled people in the workforce.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    No self respecting welfare lifer

    How many are there? How are they dodging work? Are doctors committing fraud? Otherwise we're talking anecdotes.

    Maybe consider reducing this type of thing rather than taking from the lowest rung?

    Sixty-five former civil servants get pensions of more than €100,000 a year





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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,424 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    People on disability should be all reviewed every so often bar of course the real genuine cases.

    It might cost little at start but would save fortune in long run.

    Amount of young people on disability is a disgrace. Taking the piss.

    The whole SW system needs change.



  • Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭CarProblem


    "Maybe consider reducing this type of thing rather than taking from the lowest rung?"

    Or maybe both? this is a thread about welfare dependent numbers, start a thread about that topic and I bet a lot of people would also agree.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    So why do people think we are twice Germany or France?

    Bad policy? Bad culture? Soft touch unbalanced media.

    Id go media which bred policy which bred culture but would like to know others thoughts.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think it's more to do with culture TBH. We're importing a lot of theories and practices from the US... and the US has extended it's physical/mental health services so much over the last few decades, moving away from being a service, to being a focus on profit.

    I suspect we're seeing the same thing happen here. The perception on what involves a disability has expanded considerably in scope over the last two decades, especially when you factor in the influence of psychology in determining a disability exists. And then, tie in the pharma companies who provide the drugs to manage these disabilities, often blurring the point between physical and mental issues.

    It's less about Welfare reform, and more to do with examining the motives behind our medical practitioners. The issue with Welfare disability is simply a symptom of a larger concern... and it won't diminish until we ensure that our own medical industry isn't going the same way as the US.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,717 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    It's hard to know.

    I know four working-age adults who are all on long-term welfare.

    It could be argued that all four could do some job.

    Two of the four choose long-term welfare as a lifestyle choice, do a nixer, drive an AUDI Q5 SUV, and have received 100,000 in college grants.

    They have a house (5-bed detached) and lifestyle associated with people who work.

    There is no reason to think they are special or unique.

    So I have to presume there are people like this everywhere?


    The other two are single men, who are not, shall we say, the "most employable" people in the world.

    However, is there some job they could do? Yes.

    But we are too soft on them.



    If you are pushing me for a figure, I'd say there are 100,000 working-age adults who could be moved from long-term welfare to employment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,083 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Thinking of the other two: Would your company employ them? Would you be prepared to manage them?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,078 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    The problem is the lack of Jeopardy. People might be unemployable when they have alternatives but if the alternative is death, they usually find a way to be employable. I would probably be the same way. It also explains why wealth is almost impossible to retain over multiple generations despite the huge advantages from generous inheritance tax policies and why wars lead to eras of greatest innovation. Without jeopardy we can do nothing. Necessity is the mother of invention. Speaking personally, the only reason I began working was because my parents said we will give you dinner, bed and an education, anything else is up to you. And I was very entitled to get those things. Some kids do not get that and that is why we have welfare not to support adults for life and to take away their jeopardy, diminishing their agency in life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,717 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    In a tight labour market, would any employer take on the two working-age adult men I am referring to?

    Not easily, as they both have gaps in their CVs / employment records.

    They are the type to not take instruction easily.

    One of them was a bicycle courier, years ago, and had other jobs, but no job lasted more than 5 yrs.


    I'll put it to you like this: neither will ever get married, as no woman would put up with them. There is a degree of immaturity. But both are talented at something outside of work.


    Sometimes I think, fair enough, we as a society must pay tax to transfer income to these people, we can't let them suffer.

    But other times, as I awake as 5:40am to go to work, I think why are we paying able-bodied adults like them to play golf and/or video games all day?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Yes back to the lowest income bracket. We must reduce the level its believed people need to survive.

    Its a thread about the findings which includes talk on welfare.

    So anecdotal. Its just talk. If what you say is true these people are gaming the system somehow. That doesn't support reducing payment across the board as a fix for a problem nobody can tell us the size of.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,083 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    So probably no one will hire them.

    Either there is welfare, or they turn to crime to live, or they die of hunger. Which would you prefer?


    I totally agree re the moral hazard of welfare. But some degree is essential, to manage the crime rate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,595 ✭✭✭Damien360


    Of the 4 people the poster mentioned he personally knows, 2 are in need of support. I don’t think anyone would argue that. The other 2 clearly need no extra support and should be working. That’s who needs targetting but every single time that is mentioned, it gets shot down as anecdotal or it’s an unknown number of people. We all live in the community and can see who is playing the system. It is much harder to see the ones that need help and very often they don’t get it because they simply don’t know how.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    It only gets shot down because there seems to be no verifiable numbers. We don't know if it's a big or small problem. I don't know anyone gaming welfare. So can I argue little to nobody is? People are complaining about things they don't know are a big problem or not and creating solutions to this undefinable problem.

    We waste massive amounts of tax payer money elsewhere and give some retired civil servants over 100,000 a year, increasing in tandem with wage rises. We've former ministers on more than one pension. Why do these threads always go for the lowest income bracket and tell stories about a lad they know?



  • Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭CarProblem


    "Yes back to the lowest income bracket. We must reduce the level its believed people need to survive."

    I'd argue those working on low-ish wages are in the lowest income bracket as study after study confirms the generosity (over generosity IMO) of the Irish welfare system. I know several people depending on welfare. None, zero are "struggling to survive". Not one.

    Who'd have thought on a thread about the welfare dependent population most posts would be about........ welfare

    I'd suggest if you want to analyse the generosity(over generosity again IMO) of the Irish pension system maybe start a thread? I'd hazard a guess a lot of people who think welfare is over generous would also agree with on such a thread



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,717 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Correct, these people are "gaming" the system, yes.

    I do not support cutting any welfare rates.

    Indeed, I support increasing JSB rates, and DA rates.

    What I do support is a stricter system.

    I suggest DA payment rates to those genuinely disabled be increased, financed by cutting the numbers on DA, by being stricter.

    The two people I know on DA do not fit any reasonable definition of disability. There are thousands more like them.

    There are IGEES and ESRI reports which show, again and again, over and over, that we have way more adults on DA than other countries.

    Clearly, our population is no more disabled than anywhere else.

    It is the design of the welfare state that creates higher numbers on DA.

    This is all well known.


    Similarly, I don't support cutting JSA rates, I suggest cutting its duration.

    Max six months of JSA, then you are offered paid work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,717 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Welfare.

    But we should be honest.

    If people are long-term on JSA, and make no effort to find work, then either offer them paid work, or they move off JSA to SWA.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,153 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    The two guys who have "received €100,000 in college grants".....what do you mean? They've spent twenty years plus at university or something? The standard registration (university) fee in Ireland is only €3000 per annum.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,717 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Read the Barrington lecture given by Barra Roantree of the ESRI:


    See slide 20. We have loads of working-age adults with no market income.

    It is not anecdotal, it is a fact.


    See slide 21 and 22 - we have loads of lone parents, more than other countries, and they have low employment rates. Why? Part of the answer is the design of the welfare state itself. Ours system seems to encourage lone parenthood.


    See slide 23, it's unreal. 19% of working-age adults living alone say permanently disabled/unfit for work, miles ahead of anywhere else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,717 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    They are a marrried couple. They have received 100,000 in college fee and cash grants on behalf of their children.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,717 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    PS pensions have been reformed.

    The PS pension scheme since 2013 is less generous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    Those on lower income are likely on some form of welfare or rent aid. As it should be.

    If you want to look at the symptoms and not the problem using anecdotal evidence, sure, why not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,717 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Table 1

    2012 DA = 102,000

    2017 DA = 134,000

    Hard to explain approx 30% growth over five years?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    So if there are no verifiable numbers? We shouldn't try solve issues or try identify these numbers?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    You should try identify the numbers while tackling other related issues we know about. For instance reducing the need for welfare.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,153 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Oh right, I thought you meant they were two single lifelong students or something.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's the registration fee. Look at the yearly and/or Term fees for adults applying to somewhere like Trinity, or one of the business colleges, like Griffith. You could easily rack up a 100k in costs over a few years, when taking into account qualifications such as Masters or other advanced degrees, in addition to the Bachelor itself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    Great to see another 5 euro added on for 756,000 people a week.

    Almost half a billion a year, with no qualification banding etc.

    And this from our right wing party



  • Registered Users Posts: 990 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    Yep, if they had simply frozen the rate at 203 euro per week, and scrapped the Christmas bonus, that would have freed up about €900 million in cash which could be used to cut USC almost in half (scrapping it would cost around €2bn). See how easy it is if they were actually motivated to do it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,438 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Probably because Govt was very happy to show 'economic recovery' and tell a great story about reductions in unemployment as part of the recovery.

    PR spin as welfare policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,438 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    All cases are 'real genuine cases' in that they meet the criteria set out. I've heard of people with amputations being called for review to see if the limb has grown back yet, and people with Down Syndrome called for review to see if they have been miraculously cured over night. Reviews happen all the time. Fear of losing DA is a major deterrent to people with disabilities taking up employment, which can be a bit of a gamble for them and for the employer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,424 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Well those poor people deserve benefit and to be fair I think deserve more as its poor for genuine people.

    Like I said already I'm not after the genuine cases. I feel for those poor people. But we now see that many are taking piss.

    No incentive to work. The reason we are possibly seeing change is the Well is drying up a little.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,078 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    I don't see why anyone "deserves" anything. It's a bizarre perspective. Why would anyone deserve something?



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