The creeping prominence of the Irish language

I think kids "are made to" go to school in Ireland.

Go to school or else. Nice.

Never mind the 'year zero' style insanity of getting every single teacher in the country up to speed in Irish. Good luck with that.

Are we really at the point Evade that after 48 pages of debate on this thread your input is "but sure why not just do X in English".

Say to the Welshman passionate about his language, you just use Welsh for the sake of it!

Say to the Basque or Catalan nationalist, but sure why not just speak Spanish?

Say to the descendants of any nation oppressed by a colonial power, just get with the programme and stop being awkward! It's much more efficient this way.

The lack of empathy shown by some in this thread as to why someone might even think of wanting to live with Irish in their lives is actually jawdropping.

Anyway, time to celebrate so I'll sign off by wishing you all a Nollaig mhór mhaith. Sláinte!

Firstly, its PCB, not PHB.

Now, from the post above:

1: the criteria a subject should meet to be mandatory was not discussed

So you have presented a strawman argument. I never asked about Irish. The argument deirdre presented was in favour of core subjects generally. That needs to be answered before we move on to whether or not Irish fulfils them. So if I've asked it numerous times, it's because you're misread it numerous times. And the rinse and repeat will happen until you either do answer what was asked, or stop trying to answer the wrong one.

2: the idea that it is up to the individual to express rhemselves and not the State, was not countered.

If your answer to this is that it connects with "their" culture and heritage then the answer is the State. This is Irish state heritage and state culture! If you have linked to State history and State culture, then the answer is the State.

If you believe you haven't - then... how do you know that is important to the student themsleves based purely on nationality when you don't know them...?

Now this is a fair answer, but one that I disagreee with: I find very repressive politically speaking on the individual. But then you've stated that the goals of educational Irish are politicial, and to maintain parity with English, anyway and I've agreed to disagree on that too.

I think Deridre does too, as she's stated that the aims should be to get Irish spoken more in society. I could be wrong, she can confirm or deny and apologies to her if I've got it wrong.

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I've explained very clearly where the confirmation bias is post 1412.

All to fill a quota.

Tbh some of them are better than regular RTE produced rubbish and prehistoric reruns and at least there are subtitles, on that basis as they are understandable to everyone.

I think I wrote PBH instead of PHB ;)

Anyway, we've been around the block a few times on this already.

On Q1, Considering you don't think any school subjects should be mandatory after a certain age makes it a moot point.

But anyway, to me it is obvious that a country should have its official languages as core subjects. Ireland isn't exceptional in requiring this. I think you know this already.

On Q2, I don't know where you get the impression that any person believes what you have written. Non-sequiteur between someone connecting with "their" culture and heritage and somehow forgoing "their" right to individual expression and handing it over to "the State".

I don't agree with your examples of "confirmation bias" either.

Whatever your difficulties are with the status quo, I don't recall you contributing any constructive ideas to increase the use of Irish in society or in schools. You have spent plenty of time pulling my ideas apart though!

So what would you add so that Irish can flourish as the official language it already is?

1 - my point entirely: no one's even tried to justify it - is just easier to say, "everyone else does so we do it".

2 - I totally accept some right to connect, and as I've said, it should be facilitated as much as possible. What I'm arguing in favour of is someone's right to NOT connect of they get nothing from it. Should that be respected?

And THIS is the crux of the argument in context: its not really consistent to demand rights for Irish speakers (which I'm obviously in favour of) but then deny the same options to people who doesn't want to speak or learn Irish.

Before you say it's someone's culture or heritage you should really ask them first.

And this is why I have concluded that there is no point engaging with PCB. Absolutely bananas opposition to every measure you might propose, "but I'm in favour of Irish" with a subtext of provided it doesn't in any way impinge in any way on me or anyone else including you

I've come across this poster down the years and seem to recall that their position has always been much the same. Sort of a Garret Fitzgerald figure rather than an Ed Walsh.

You can hide behind the status as first official language as much as you like

I've no idea why you think I'm hiding, cos I'm not, and there are plenty in my position.

1. That misses the point - in some countries like the UK there is complete free choice at A level. You favour that model. Grand, but not relevant to the discussion which is making only Irish optional while leaving Shakespeare mandatory.
2. Regarding the right not to connect - isn't that what many people are exercising once they leave school? Along with Shakespeare and a whole host of other school subjects. Onus is on you to explain why Irish should be selectively excluded from the core curriculum?
3. I don't agree with the way you relativise culture and heritage, it is not person specific. Your nationality is similarly not optional in most cases.

Want is a strong word, I'm OK with it dying out. Even if I did want it to die out the Nazi comparison is absurd to say the least but then you've been histrionic in your perceived slights against Irish before so I shouldn't be surprised.

I don't agree the logical conclusion to my argument is me wanting it to die out, the logical conclusion is allowing it to die out if the interest isn't there.

The reason I claim people hide behind the official status is because they do. You have made the argument before that because Irish is the official first language equal class time should be give to Irish as English despite the huge difference in the day to day usage. If you didn't have that excuse what would your reasoning be for equal time?

It seems hobby like to me because all the arguements in favour boil down to "I like to do x through Irish."

Facism was widespread across Europe, the various versions were pretty nasty, but (generally) less extreme than the Nazis.

You could consider Mussolini in Italy, Salazar in Portugal, Horthy in Hungary, Franco in Spain to name but a few. You'll find further information here.

You claimed Gaelic was the n-word for Irish speakers

I don't think your memory is correct here, although you obviously read what I wrote to mean that. The word Gaelic is not used to any significant extent in Ireland to refer to the Irish language - the only Irish people I have ever come across who use it so are people who are implacably antagonistic towards the language.

Ok so you take the role of bystander in this debate, I see. If Irish dies, it dies, oh well, nothing to see here type of attitude.

Why is your indifference so passionate then? For a hurler on the ditch, you're very much in the game.

"I do my taxes through Irish"

"I do my exams through Irish"

"I speak Irish because I'm Irish and I want to speak my country's native language"

Nah, sorry, these phrases sound like me living my life and don't sound half like my hobbies which is what I do to relax in my spare time.

I remember you saying you learn Japanese as a hobby. Are you planning on paying your taxes through Japanese?

Try again.

1 - I don;t know who suggested optional Irish and mandatory Shakespear but it wasn't me and definitely not what we were talking about. Again READ the post, please.

2 - And before the leave school? They'll have done it for ten years, will have a grounding in the culture and heritage, so they'll be in a pretty good position to tell. Why should they not have this right?

3 - Nationality can be reduced to just a label - it's up to the individual what influence it has on their connections (if any) and certainly not the State. And I personally have had no connection with my heritage and culture and instead connected with a culture that was more in tune with who I am. Lots of people do. How is that NOT person specific? Why do you assume everyone will have the same interest in a culture just because of their birthplace?