Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

Delay, deflect, confuse, defer... Hmm...who are pulling Donnelly's strings. Gimme an R.

Maybe he'll wait for 9 months to go by and then announce it's too late. That'd be kind of poetic.

“The numbers have spiralled, so they’ve had 13,243 abortions since the law came into effect ,” she said.

Yes, and?

“That’s a 70 per cent increase on previous figures, a massive increase.” 

Liars.

And they still regard women as idiots who don't know their own minds or bodies.

Interesting read, follows on some of the ideas from Nozz, among others:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/i-m-a-philosophy-professor-the-argument-for-making-abortion-illegal-is-illogical/ar-AARsEYX?ocid=msedgntp

Well Minister Donnelly 'appeared before the Oireachtas Health Committee' but tbh didn't give a lot away because 'he does not want to pre-judge the outcome of the review.'  However he did concede

Load of bollox. The review was always supposed to be not just about the operation of the legislation, but the legislation itself. There was nothing at all stopping them doing a review of the (sub-par tbh) operation of the legislation long before now, why wait 3 years if that's all they're doing? Fúcking FF that's why.

Probably not expressing himself very well but I took him to mean he's not satisfied that the ease of access to abortion that is required by law under certain conditions is not there in practice.

Re the terms of reference for the review, I doubt it'll matter much at the end of the day. The final decision is a political one (and has likely already been made, in broad outline), and IMO the review process is largely there to give Donnelly and the government cover for the changes to the abortion regime they have decided in advance they wish to make.

It doesn't say that anywhere.

A review of legislation is of much lesser worth if it only reviews what the legislation permits, and not what it excludes.

From the breakingnews.ie article:

What an absolute crock. Same number as when the legislation came into effect. So all of 2019, no improvement...

And no opportunity to revise the legislation due to the pandering to FF 'political decision' to not review the legislation but just the logistics. So the harassment embodied in the '3 day cooling off period' and the 12 week limit will remain.

I guess if the Dail got interested, they could always address those two grievous limitations; this would've been an 'easy' opportunity for the government to make those changes.

The article implies some hospitals are not performing well. Of course, with all HSE communications, they're oblique.

So, if you read 'performing' as 'not performing abortions at all,' then the problem is that it's only 10 hospitals. If you read performing as 'doing it poorly/bad scheduling/finding sly ways to prevent abortions and suppressing any complaints registered', it could be worse. It's the HSE, the thing they do best is cover themselves (and even that not too well.)

Also (again, no numbers), not many GPs are participating. That's particularly sad. Maybe they can be incentivized with money.

TBF they're *choosing to review the operation of the law* but not the legislation at this time, because reasons. They could just as well review the law (and answer questions like, "Is there any point to the 3 day cooling off period? How did that impact provision," and "Is the 12 week limitation too restrictive, as it's at odds with the rest of Europe that isn't an RCC run backwater like Poland.

Even if these issues are not specifically addressed in the review, as far as I know that does not mean they will not be changed in any subsequent legislation.

WTF? A "Foetal pain relief bill?!" Sadistic f*ckwits the anti-choice types. Healey's-Rae are just panderers, though it'd be hilarious if someone took them up on their offer. What's a Private Members bill? Just a way to get news coverage?

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/i-believe-that-in-my-heart-and-soul-if-i-was-offered-the-size-of-this-room-in-100-notes-i-would-burn-it-to-protect-one-unborn-child-healy-raes-support-bill-for-foetal-pain-relief-prior-to-abortion-41156956.html

I think that was confirmed sometime ago, worth like 6million Euros. But, there's another thread about those gombeens.

Does a 'private members bill' matter?

I'm not being cynical here when I think they probably hope, as a starter, that some-one demand he/she be given proof that the pain relief drug doesn't have painful side effects on the feotus before a private members bill they suggested be voted on. It seems like a two-step dance routine the promoters of such a bill would hope for, a partner to step out of the wings with such a demand, seeking a rehash of the argument that the feotus has awareness of pain because it reacts to noise and other stimulations.

the people of kerry are awake, they just have some different priorities to you and me and the dinisty deliver on them and while they continue to deliver they will keep being voted in.

on a country wide basis i would agree.

but lets be fair, the local things that effect one on a day to day basis will for some take priority over issues that don't but which may exist country wide.

A poster on Irish Catholics boards, where I occassionally lurk to monitor thinking in those quarters😛, says "Stephen Donnelly's presentation of the "three-year review" makes it abundantly clear that it is based on the assumption that the aim is to have every abortion which involves travel to Britain take place in Ireland instead."

I myself suspect this is the drift of Donnelly's thinking, but I didn't see anything specific in his presentation of the review to confirm that. From what I observed he was keeping his cards close to his chest.

Letter in today's IT:

Sir, – As the doctor appointed by the minister for health in 2018 to advise the HSE on the implementation of the Termination of Pregnancy Act, I share the serious concerns about the forthcoming review of the legislation and its operation expressed by Orla O’Connor and the National Women’s Council of Ireland (“Donnelly is dragging his heels on abortion review”, Opinion & Analysis, December 15th).

I agree that an independent chair should be appointed without further delay, and critically that the review’s terms of reference must be framed to ensure that if the evidence suggests the need for legislative and policy changes, these can be brought forward.

I would highlight four areas in particular that require careful attention to ensure that unnecessary systemic barriers are not limiting access to legal abortion services.

The uneven provision of the service in only 10 of the State’s 19 maternity units needs to be addressed.

The three-day period waiting period is patronising and unnecessary and should be removed.

Parents’ concerns about access to termination in cases of foetal abnormality may mandate legislative review to eliminate the need for unnecessary or unreasonable travel abroad to access appropriate care.

Finally, a hitherto overlooked serious systemic barrier to access is the anomaly in the HSE guidelines which limits the definition of 12 weeks of pregnancy to 84 days from the first day of a woman’s last menstrual period. In universal medical practice, a woman is 12 weeks pregnant until she is 13 weeks pregnant. Twelve weeks of pregnancy is 90 days, not 84, and this is clear and correctly stated in all other HSE material relating to pregnancy.

My efforts in late 2018 to ensure that the correct medical definition of 12 weeks was included in the guidelines met with immovable resistance from within the Department of Health.

This novel definition of 12 weeks of pregnancy should be corrected without further delay. –

Yours, etc,

Dr PETER BOYLAN,

Dublin 6.

So things are moving a bit. Not someone I'm familiar with but I suppose it doesn't matter who the 'independent chair' is as long as long as they are genuinely independent and competent.

Viva Colombia! Ireland should cop on about their regime. 12 weeks ffs...

And seemingly underscoring this

seemingly entirely separately from the abortion law review process

According to todays online headlines issue of the Irish Times [UK Government will "intervene directly" to ensure abortion services are available in North], Brandon Lewis said regulations were being prepared which would give London the necessary powers..... That's as much as the I/T item reveals. I'm unable, due to the I/T blocking any lifting of its property, to provide a link to the article but that won't stop people from using the net to look for the item above on the I/T site.

Please make a submission on the abortion legislation review. Closing date is close of business on Friday April 1st.

My submission is below

...................

Q3(a). To what extent do you agree that the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018 has achieved what it set out to do?

Answer

Strongly Disagree

Q3(b). Please provide detail / evidence to support your answer

3200 character(s) maximum

Almost 90% of GPs and half of maternity hospitals are refusing to provide abortion services.

The 3 day wait is a needless and medically unnecessary barrier to accessing abortion, particularly for those who must travel due to their local GPs and hospitals not participating. It creates needless additional difficulties in relation to travel, cost, employment, and childcare.

The interpretation by doctors of the 12 week calculation is incorrect - it should be up to 12 weeks 6 days not 12 weeks 0 days, i.e. any date less than 13 weeks is 12 weeks.

In practice there are huge barriers in place once a pregnancy is, or is suspected to be, over 10 weeks. Severe difficulties arise where a pregnancy is close to 12 weeks but a dating scan is requested which may delay the practitioner's decision until after 12 weeks, thus denying a woman her legal right to an abortion within 12 weeks under Irish law.

There are also many documented cases of fatal foetal abnormality which have been refused abortion in Ireland and the women concerned have been forced to travel to the UK to receive the care they should have received in Ireland.

Q4(a). Are there parts of the Act which, in your opinion, have not operated well?

Answer

Yes

Q4(b). If yes, please let us know which section(s) of the Act, and details of the issue(s) it is causing.

Please provide detail / evidence to support your answer.

Section 7. The review has been delayed. It should have been completed within 3 years of the commencement of the Act i.e. by 1/1/2022.

Section 11. Many documented cases of "fatal but not fatal enough" abnormalities where the foetus has no real prospect of survival but nonetheless an abortion under S.11 has been refused.

Section 12.1. The 12 weeks is counted as 12 weeks since last menstrual period. This is nonsense as (a) the date of LMP may not be known accurately (b) some women do not menstruate yet remain fertile (c) fertilization typically cannot occur until 2 weeks post LMP therefore our 12 week abortion law is in reality a 10 week abortion law.

Section 12.3. The 3 day wait is medically unneccessary, causes issues in relation to travel, employment, and childcare, and is intended to shame women. Irish law does not accept that a woman is capable of making a considered decision about her health before consulting her GP.

Section 12.4. A woman may be denied her right to legal abortion due to delays caused by a doctor's request for a dating scan or due to other factors outside of the woman's control.

Section 12.5. Dating a pregnancy for the purposes of abortion from typically two weeks before fertilization occurred is nonsensical and diminishes the rights of women to legal abortion in Ireland at what is still a very early stage of pregnancy.

Section 22.3. In practice this provision is unenforceable and a woman in such a situation has no means to vindicate her rights under the law to a legal abortion. She has no option other than to seek a consultation with another practitioner, incurring further difficulties in relation to travel, cost, employment, and childcare, and may then find herself beyond the 12 week limit.

Section 23.1. Criminalizing abortion on the basis of an arbitrary time limit, where the duration of the pregnancy may be impossible to know accurately, understandably leads to an abundance of caution among practitioners, thus denying women their legal right to an abortion under Irish law. Abortion should be decriminalised.

Section 23.5. The penalty of imprisonment up to 14 years, and/or an unlimited fine, is grossly excessive and causes practitioners to deny women their legal right to an abortion under Irish law. Abortion should be decriminalised. If it is not decriminalised, the grossly excessive penalties must be greatly reduced.

Section 26. Half of maternity hospitals are refusing to provide abortion services despite this section obliging them to do so. No action has been taken or penalty imposed against the hospitals denying Irish women their right to an abortion under Irish law.

Q6. Are there any further comments you would like to make on the operation of the legislation?

Please provide detail / evidence to support your answer, where possible.

With 89% of GPs ahd half of maternity hospitals still refusing to participate, the legislation is not operating well and is denying Irish women their legal rights. Many Irish women are still having to travel to the UK for an abortion despite falling within the very restrictive parameters of the legislation here.

Q7. Do you have any comments about services provided under the Act?

Please provide detail / evidence to support your answer, where possible.

3200 character(s) maximum

Even within the very restrictive parameters set out in this Act for legal abortion, it is a failure with 89% of GPs not participating and half of maternity hospitals refusing, without penalty, to provide abortion services despite being legally required to do so. The scope of the legislation must be extended to fully vindicate the rights of Irish woman to a legal abortion in Ireland without being forced to travel to another country. The restrictive time limit must be increased, and abortion rights extended to non-fatal foetal abnormalities.

Just to cut off the "Teh EU forced us to have abortions" angle before it can begin, the Irish government is hosting the consultation on an EU website for the sake of convenience - any public body in the EU can use that site for surveys - but the review isn't anything to do with the EU.