Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

robindch · 02-09-2021 11:32am

Interesting news in from the US in the last couple of days, where on Tuesday, Texas passed a law which empowers private citizens to take civil cases against any women seeking to procure an abortion after six weeks of pregnancy, anybody helping a woman procure an abortion after six weeks of pregnancy; or even anybody intending to help a woman procure an abortion after six weeks of pregnancy; and where, should the case taken be successful, requires the defendant to pay a bounty of $10,000 to the private citizen who took the case; and where, should the case taken be unsuccessful, Texas will step in to pay the private citizen's legal fees - in essence, Texas is now offering bounties on its citizens going about their own private medical business.

In response, yesterday, the US Supreme Court - with its three members appointed by #45 providing a strong 6-3 Republican majority - refused to strike down the Texas law, citing that while the applicants had "raised serious questions regarding the constitutionality of the Texas law", they had also failed to address "complex and novel" questions raised by the law without specifying what these blocking questions actually were. So, by a majority vote, 5-4, USSC refused to rule on the issue one way or the other and in default of judgement, would leave the law stand by which abortion is now, by the open use of state-sponsored public predation of private citizens, effectively prohibited in the state of Texas.

Judgement is here:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/21a24_8759.pdf

Some commentary here:

https://mobile.twitter.com/MaddowBlog/status/1433288292825370624

https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1433278317269028865

Bredabe · 02-09-2021 11:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117837309#Comment_117837309

Coming to a republic near you if some organisations are given their way.

This is particularly scary as its resemblances of the Ireland I grew up in.

Igotadose · 02-09-2021 3:59pm

Texas: where a virus has reproductive rights and a woman does not

Loafing Oaf · 02-09-2021 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117837330#Comment_117837330

Pretty big if in fairness...

PopePalpatine · 03-09-2021 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117838625#Comment_117838625

Maybe those republics near us are Poland and Hungary?

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2021 6:09pm

The injunction against the law has been refused, but the law's constitutionality has not yet been decided upon.

Although the Court denies the applicants’ request for emergency relief today, the Court’s order is emphatic in making clear that it cannot be understood as sustaining the constitutionality of the law at issue.

Anyway, seems to me that the best way to combat this vile abuse of the law is to abuse it back - every pro-choice American (not just Texans) can bombard the system with dubious reports against Texas anti-choicers with, as far as I can see on an extremely cursory examination, no consequences for themselves.

Kewreeuss · 05-09-2021 5:29pm

I posted a couple of weeks ago about that video shown in Thurles.

I cannot get over a) some dope in the dept of education authorised the video, actually thought it was suitable; b) the teacher giving the class also thought the same, “ I’ll pop this on now and go for a vape” c) it’s an American video, really rabid sh1te from lunatics who, as usual with Americans, can’t accept that other countries are well able to make their own laws for their own people; d) the video contained lies, is that how they want to “win hearts and minds? e)took 18 months for the dept to decide that it didn’t even merit a slap on the wrist!!

Igotadose · 05-09-2021 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117850279#Comment_117850279

RCC still runs the hearts and minds of the education system in this country, if not 'officially.' No surprise at all at this behavior nor the lack of consequences. No freedom of speech means you can't name names publicly. Is trua é sin

Igotadose · 08-09-2021 8:51am

At least Texans won't have as far to travel for abortions now. They're legal in Mexico, the world's 2d largest Catholic country: https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/mexico-supreme-court-rules-criminalizing-abortion-is-unconstitutional-2021-09-07/

Hotblack Desiato · 08-09-2021 9:50am

Pregnancy tests at the border...? Would not surprise me one bit if some legislators tried it.

wench · 15-09-2021 8:05pm

The Life Institute are still at it, advertising "abortion reversing" drugs to Irish women

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/15/facebook-and-google-condemned-over-ads-for-abortion-pill-reversal

On Facebook, the platform’s own analytics show that as many as 1.5 million users in the UK and 3 million in the Republic of Ireland could have been targeted by adverts promoting the process, paid for by the anti-abortion groups SPUC in the UK and the Life Institute in Ireland.

Hotblack Desiato · 16-09-2021 12:37pm

Yeah I heard about a doctor offering an abortion reversal service, although he said it may require several injections over a period of some months.

Sorry/notsorry for the bad taste joke, but that story is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time.

The obvious "market" for the above is parents/controlling partners who find out that an abortion pill has been taken. 😡 How is it legal for Facebook to take money to advertise the unlicensed use of a drug?

Edit: Thought the ads were only in the US, but no. It's totally illegal to advertise ANY kind of prescription drug in Ireland or the UK.

On Facebook, the platform’s own analytics show that as many as 1.5 million users in the UK and 3 million in the Republic of Ireland could have been targeted by adverts promoting the process, paid for by the anti-abortion groups SPUC in the UK and the Life Institute in Ireland.

Scum. Absolute scum of the earth.

Pherekydes · 16-09-2021 4:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117896521#Comment_117896521

Do the drugs work, though? The wife wants to know, because she'd like to revive the miscarriage she had in 1994.

16-09-2021 5:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900406#Comment_117900406

Given that this unfortunate event for ye was part of God's plan, no, it's only designed for events that weren't part of this plan and when people use their free will.

Hotblack Desiato · 16-09-2021 8:17pm

But wait - I thought that all bad things which all-loving, all-powerful god lets happen were because of free will?

Cabaal · 21-09-2021 7:23am

and as expected, an on purpose challenge to the Texas law

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58633515

[quote]A Texas doctor who admitted to breaking the state's new abortion legislation has been sued, in what could be a test of how lawful the mandate is.

Writing for the Washington Post, Alan Braid said he had carried out a termination on a woman who was in the early stages of her pregnancy but "beyond the state's new limit".

Former lawyers in Arkansas and Illinois filed lawsuits against him on Monday.

....Oscar Stilley, a former lawyer in Arkansas who is serving a 15-year federal conviction for tax fraud in home confinement, said he had decided to file the lawsuit after reading Dr Braid's opinion piece. He said he was not opposed to abortion but sued to force a court to test the legality of the new legislation.[/quote]

Igotadose · 21-09-2021 9:00pm

Saw on Facebooger that something called The Life Institute will be "airing" something called "How Ireland was lost" on 1 October regarding the repeal of the eighth. Expecting the usual actors to be showing up soon to spout. Airing on FB and Youtube

Hotblack Desiato · 21-09-2021 11:15pm

https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2021/08/29/breaking-barriers-10th-annual-march-for-choice/

The 10th Annual March for Choice takes place on Saturday 25th September 2021. Mindful of public health concerns, we will hold a socially distanced, static rally for free, safe, legal and local abortion access at Dáil Éireann.

Date: 25th September 2021

Time: Assembling at 1.45pm, rally commencing at 2pm.

Place: Outside Dáil Éireann, Kildare St., Dublin 2.

The theme this year is: Breaking Barriers.

Despite the historic referendum result in May 2018, there are still far too many barriers to abortion in Ireland. Mandatory waiting periods, refusals of care, arbitrary gestational limits, limited service provision, and enduring abortion stigma can all delay and prevent someone from accessing the abortion they need. The cumulative effect of these barriers is felt most keenly by those already marginalised, including LGBTQ+ people, migrants, Travellers, disabled people and those living with domestic violence. The ongoing global pandemic has compounded those structural inequalities. Despite the pandemic, at least 10 people a week travelled from Ireland to England to access abortion in 2020.

In 2021, Ireland’s abortion legislation is due to be reviewed. We believe that abortion should be available to anyone who wants or needs one – free from stigma and shame, without apology or restriction. We will keep marching, working and fighting until all of the barriers to our reproductive rights and bodily autonomy have been broken. Join us on September 25th to show the government that we won’t stand for anything less than reproductive justice for all.

robindch · 26-09-2021 12:18pm

Sam Marino takes a break from being out of the news to stepping frontstage, being the latest territory to reconsider its 150-year old ban on abortion.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/san-marino-abortion-debate-heats-up-ahead-historic-referendum-2021-09-20/

Loafing Oaf · 26-09-2021 1:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941025#Comment_117941025

I wonder have pro-choice activists there been pointing out for decades the hypocrisy of San Marinese women being readily able to access abortion in the large jurisdiction next door, and claiming if the pro-lifers really believed their own rhetoric, they'd be trying to stop women traveling for abortions

Igotadose · 27-09-2021 9:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117941025#Comment_117941025

San Marino legalized abortion. Yay for them!

https://apnews.com/article/abortion-europe-health-religion-italy-f9a1c1c0e4f69156fb551f677f56bcfe

robindch · 27-09-2021 11:28am

Aye, and by a huge margin too - 77% to 23%. There'll be no dancing in the Vatican this evening.

That leaves Malta, Andorra and the Vatican itself as the last territories holding out.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-09-2021 11:48am

Wonder if there are any women living in the Vatican who aren't nuns?

But hey, nuns need abortion rights too (and the RCC has performed intellectual backflips in the past to permit it)

Abortion may be legal in Italy since 1978 but the RCC dominates healthcare there and, allegedly, hospital authorities threaten the career progression of the minority of ob/gyns who agree to carry out abortions. Maybe some Italian women will have to go to San Marino...?

ohnonotgmail · 28-09-2021 11:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949034#Comment_117949034

apparently there are 32 women living in the vatican, only one of which is a nun.

Loafing Oaf · 28-09-2021 12:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949034#Comment_117949034

There is one apparently

Hotblack Desiato · 28-09-2021 2:01pm

Well, somebody's got to sweep the church and arrange the flowers and clean the jacks I suppose... (insert world's most massive rolleyes here)

aloyisious · 04-10-2021 8:32am

Listening to RTE news reporting that SPUC is taking the UK Govts N.I Secretary for State to court TODAY on the grounds that his actions [to make the NI Assembly and/or the Govt formed from parties in the assembly act to introduce abortion as provided on the UK mainland available for women and girls in NI] are unconstitutional and illegal. SPUC in NI seems to be linked to the DUP by way of Jim Wells, MLA, who opened its new offices in Belfast two years ago. Speaking at the SPUC office opening he said: “It’s a great honour to be asked to this event and I am delighted that SPUC is increasing its presence here at such a crucial time as the fundamental principles of the pro-life movement come under increasing pressure both in Northern Ireland and in London where there is growing support for Westminster to impose abortion legislation on the people of Northern Ireland. That would be a disgrace to democracy.”

It does have its own guidance officer, Liam Gibson. A quote from Mr Gibson in 15 Feb 2019. “The decision comes at a time when the country is coming under pressure on abortion like never before. The result of the referendum in the Republic of Ireland has fuelled the clamour for change from the pro-abortion lobby here. “But we are also facing a twin-pronged attack with the second assault coming from London where the pro-abortion lobby is seeking to use Westminster to impose direct legislation through the House of Commons on the people of Northern Ireland at a time when Stormont - which has devolved powers over abortion law - is suspended.”

The following link refers to SPUC funding the legal action BUT it only opens if you agree to the TACs set up by the newspaper concerned, like with other newspapers. https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2021/05/04/news/pro-life-group-to-fund-legal-action-against-new-abortion-legislation-2309068/

Hotblack Desiato · 05-10-2021 4:11pm

NI public opinion is in favour of abortion rights so he can feck off with his 'disgrace to democracy'.

RTE:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/1003/1250484-abortion-services-northern-ireland/

BBC:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58807444

What's a disgrace to democracy is him and his chums pushing for a hard Brexit and hard border when NI public opinion is opposed to both...

robindch · 05-10-2021 7:02pm

What's a disgrace to democracy is him and his chums pushing for a hard Brexit and hard border when NI public opinion is opposed to both...

Well, at least there'll be jobs for them if and when they're booted out of office:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-58733754

aloyisious · 06-10-2021 11:20pm

There doesn't seem to be any outcome yet in the Belfast court, though I expect it might end up in the UK Supreme Court if the decision is against SPUC. https://care.org.uk/news/2021/10/legal-challenge-against-unconstitutional-northern-ireland-abortion-regulations-gets-underway-in-belfast

SPUC is being represented by John Larkin QC, the former NI Govt AG. Mr Larkin is opposed to abortion and offered his services to the assembly justice committee in Nov 2012 to see if the Marie Stopes clinic in Belfast was operating within the law. He also opposed a change in the law earlier in 2012 allowing same-sex couples adoption rights, arguing that EU regions should have the right to opt out of legislating adoption rights for same-sex couples.

A kicker for the DUP is that in 2009 Ian Paisley Jr opposed giving Larkin the position of AG, sending a letter to Peter Robinson, saying Mr Larkin was unsuitable for the job: "I believe that personality ought to be changed".

Hotblack Desiato · 07-10-2021 1:02pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/judge-orders-texas-to-suspend-new-law-banning-most-abortions-1.4693639

A US federal judge on Wednesday ordered Texas to suspend the most restrictive abortion law in the country, which since September has banned most abortions in the nation’s second-most populous state.

The order by district judge Robert Pitman is the first legal blow to the Texas law known as Senate Bill 8, which until now had withstood a wave of early challenges.

In the weeks since the restrictions took effect, Texas abortion providers say the impact has been “exactly what we feared”.

In a 113-page opinion, Judge Pitman took Texas to task over the law, saying Republican politicians had “contrived an unprecedented and transparent statutory scheme” to deny patients their constitutional right to an abortion.

“From the moment SB 8 went into effect, women have been unlawfully prevented from exercising control over their lives in ways that are protected by the Constitution,” Judge Pitman wrote.

“That other courts may find a way to avoid this conclusion is theirs to decide; this court will not sanction one more day of this offensive deprivation of such an important right.”

Good to see but the article goes on to say that clinics may not re-open until a more definitive judgement is given.

aloyisious · 14-10-2021 9:49pm

I was watching RTE TV news report on the abortion issue in NI and a high court ruling today on the failure of the NI Sec, the Executive and the Health Dept there to progress the law there allowing women access to abortion rights. The RTE player signal was broken up so I got this link on the net about the ruling. The link provides enough readable coverage to see what the court decision and statement means.

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/other/ni-secretary-of-state-profoundly-disappointed-with-court-ruling-over-lack-of-abortion-services/ar-AAPvXuS

Hotblack Desiato · 16-10-2021 12:04am

BBC report on it here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58910720

Also MLAs have voted to allow an exclusion zones bill to go on to its next legislative stage:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58877192

Disgraceful that we still have no movement on this in the Republic just a litany of broken promises.

Hotblack Desiato · 17-10-2021 2:17pm

The "Life Institute" are putting up large ad posters all over the place. (Previous version of the story showed a huge double-height billboard ad from them. Nothing like these placards)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/anti-abortion-group-launches-billboard-campaign-ahead-of-three-year-review-1.4700499

They obviously have loads of cash, would like to know where it comes from.

Also it's not as if Irish women haven't been having abortions, in more or less the same numbers, for decades...

https://twitter.com/Berlinnaeus/status/1448981493439664135

aloyisious · 17-10-2021 11:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118032301#Comment_118032301

And rubbing it in with its other billboard Ad using the same figure claiming that the 13,243 women who had terminations were denied proper counselling advice.

ohnonotgmail · 18-10-2021 9:17am

Wrong thread. cant delete

Hotblack Desiato · 18-10-2021 10:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034243#Comment_118034243

Obviously in their view any woman who didn't change her mind about having an abortion didn't get proper "counselling" 🙄

Loafing Oaf · 20-10-2021 10:31am

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/two-bills-in-contention-on-safe-access-for-women-seeking-abortion-services-1.4705123

You wait three years for a 'safe access' bill and then two of them come along at once. Not sure how this works: does the government vote down the SF bill and pass their own, which they presumably believe is better?

Surprised we haven't got a full plan for the review yet, time running out if it's going to be done by the end of the year.

P.s. took me a couple of minutes to find this thread again, new site is really a faff

ohnonotgmail · 20-10-2021 10:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118046706#Comment_118046706

if they are smart they will add the best bits of the SF bill to the government bill to ensure that the bill passes quickly. Unfortunately politicians are rarely smart.

Peregrinus · 20-10-2021 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118046744#Comment_118046744

The government has a safe majority. It doesn't need to add bits of the SF Bill to its in order to get it passed. Plus, adding bits of the SF Bill would not necessarily secure extra votes anyway; SF could still vote against it.

ohnonotgmail · 20-10-2021 12:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118047207#Comment_118047207

to get it passed they don't need SF votes but , I am open to correction on this, SF can certainly slow down the passage of the bill. A compromise would ensure that doesn't happen.

Loafing Oaf · 20-10-2021 2:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118047207#Comment_118047207

So why is SF introducing a bill at all? To light a fire under the government? So that they can say afterward our bill would have been better on grounds x, y and Z?

Peregrinus · 20-10-2021 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118047375#Comment_118047375

They can't really slow it down. Plus, even if the could, it would probably be a politically costly thing for them to do.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118048048#Comment_118048048

Yes, probably for reasons like that. They probably hope to say that the government only introduced its Bill in response to the SF Bill so, even if (as is likely) its the government Bill that gets passed, SF will claim credit for making that happen, or at least for making it happen sooner than it otherwise would have. Plus it positions them as proactive on this issue, which is how they want to be seen.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-10-2021 4:32pm

I posted this in the NMH thread but it's also relevant to here:

The Make Our National Maternity Hospital Public campaign said on Sunday, however, that the proposed deal would not settle rows on governance and that they are “merely a smoke and mirrors exercise to deflect from legitimate concerns around ownership, and the intransigence of an organisation determined to hold on to a valuable asset”.

The campaign will hold a vigil at the Dáil this Thursday to remember Savita Halappanavar on the ninth anniversary of her death, and to “highlight the need for public, secular ownership of our new National Maternity Hospital”.

Nine years... wow. She and her husband should be raising their family today and we'd never have heard of them...

We've come a very long way since then but a long way still to go, too.

https://twitter.com/OurMatHosp/status/1453013552604737536/photo/1

Loafing Oaf · 28-10-2021 10:32am

NI Secretary putting his foot down over abortion

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/27/northern-ireland-office-may-directly-instruct-trusts-to-offer-abortion-services

TBH I don't really understand what's going on here, where exactly is the blockage? Is it the health trusts themselves that are dragging their feet? Surely they know that true authority resides with Westminster and if they were keen to offer the services they could just ignore Stormont?

Also I don't think it's fair to be putting part of the blame on Michelle O'Neil. AFAIK SF are doing whatever they can to get things moving.

aloyisious · 28-10-2021 8:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084109#Comment_118084109

According to Sinn Fein on the RTE 1 7AM to 9AM news programme today, it is the DUP who is behind the delay. A vote was held by the Health Committee in the assembly recently on the issue and only two members [Alliance & 1 other] voted for allowing abortion rights to go ahead. The other 7 members, incl SF, DUP, UUP, either abstained or voted against the motion. SF apparently on the grounds that it wants the law on both sides of the border to allow for the same rights at the same time and as the law doesn't, SF did not vote FOR the motion. SF did not bash the NI Secretary and did not praise him either where his declaration of making a move on abortion rights is concerned. I'd say the RTE 1 news podcasts will have the SF interview available later today or tomorrow. I got the distinct impression that SF are fence-sitting on the issue of equality of abortion rights law is concerned on both side of the border.

Loafing Oaf · 28-10-2021 8:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087235#Comment_118087235

My understanding is that motion related specifically to the right to abortion in cases of “severe foetal abnormality”. Okay pro-choice campaigners may be disappointed SF does not back that right but AFAIK they are not dragging their feet in any way on the broader question of the right to abortion in the early weeks of pregnancy.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/28/sinn-fein-welcomes-mps-call-for-progress-on-northern-ireland-abortion-services

Obviously SF don't want to be seen to be too fulsome in their praise of anything an NI secretary does but they seem to be backing him up here

O’Neill said: “I’m glad that I have the correspondences from Brandon Lewis that they will move if this blockage doesn’t end, they’ll move to commission the services. It’s long overdue and needs to happen now.”

aloyisious · 29-10-2021 12:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087301#Comment_118087301

Ta for that. I heard something else today about the vote and it mentioned the delay in passing the motion meant that pregnant women in N/I would have to either travel to Britain for an abortion if they were carrying a "severe fatal foetal abnormality" foetus or end up carrying it to a dead full term delivery if they stayed in N/I. The mindset of politicians to turn to a woman or girl in N/I in that situation seems, despite all the Belfast and mainland UK cases brought by women to change that bloody-minded local political mindset, and say "NO, NO, NO" means they are time-warped.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-11-2021 7:47pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59130948

Sadly, a story very familiar to Irish readers...

However, the family's lawyer argued that the tighter restrictions meant that doctors waited too long to act. There were silent protests against the near-total abortion ban in Krakow, Warsaw and Gdansk on Monday, a public holiday in predominantly Roman Catholic Poland.

The woman was in her 22nd week of pregnancy when she was taken to hospital in Pszczyna, a small southern town near Katowice, not far from near the Czech border. Her foetus lacked amniotic fluid and, according to a tweet from Ms Budzowska, doctors had waited for the foetus to die.

The mother reportedly sent a text saying her fever was rising and she was worried about going into septic shock, which then led to her death. She leaves a husband and daughter. Protesters blamed last year's abortion law, which outlawed terminations in cases of foetal defects.

"I think the ruling has made it more complicated for hospitals because medical professionals are terrified now," Antonina Lewandowska from the Federation for Women and Family Planning told the BBC.

"They don't know the law inside out, they only know there is a ban on abortion and they are scared to act." She said the federation was organising legal workshops in clinics and hospitals across the country to raise awareness of what could and could not be done.

Loafing Oaf · 15-11-2021 11:20am

Seemingly the review of the legislation only has to be 'initiated' by the end of 2021, and an expert has yet to be appointed to conduct it, so we could be waiting a while yet...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/deadline-to-begin-abortion-legislation-review-looms-as-expert-yet-to-be-appointed-1.4728531

Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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