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Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,892 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    A US federal judge on Wednesday ordered Texas to suspend the most restrictive abortion law in the country, which since September has banned most abortions in the nation’s second-most populous state.

    The order by district judge Robert Pitman is the first legal blow to the Texas law known as Senate Bill 8, which until now had withstood a wave of early challenges.

    In the weeks since the restrictions took effect, Texas abortion providers say the impact has been “exactly what we feared”.

    In a 113-page opinion, Judge Pitman took Texas to task over the law, saying Republican politicians had “contrived an unprecedented and transparent statutory scheme” to deny patients their constitutional right to an abortion.

    “From the moment SB 8 went into effect, women have been unlawfully prevented from exercising control over their lives in ways that are protected by the Constitution,” Judge Pitman wrote.

    “That other courts may find a way to avoid this conclusion is theirs to decide; this court will not sanction one more day of this offensive deprivation of such an important right.”

    Good to see but the article goes on to say that clinics may not re-open until a more definitive judgement is given.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,993 ✭✭✭✭ aloyisious


    I was watching RTE TV news report on the abortion issue in NI and a high court ruling today on the failure of the NI Sec, the Executive and the Health Dept there to progress the law there allowing women access to abortion rights. The RTE player signal was broken up so I got this link on the net about the ruling. The link provides enough readable coverage to see what the court decision and statement means.

    https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/other/ni-secretary-of-state-profoundly-disappointed-with-court-ruling-over-lack-of-abortion-services/ar-AAPvXuS



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,892 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    BBC report on it here


    Also MLAs have voted to allow an exclusion zones bill to go on to its next legislative stage:


    Disgraceful that we still have no movement on this in the Republic just a litany of broken promises.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,892 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    The "Life Institute" are putting up large ad posters all over the place. (Previous version of the story showed a huge double-height billboard ad from them. Nothing like these placards)

    They obviously have loads of cash, would like to know where it comes from.

    Also it's not as if Irish women haven't been having abortions, in more or less the same numbers, for decades...





  • Registered Users Posts: 10,993 ✭✭✭✭ aloyisious


    And rubbing it in with its other billboard Ad using the same figure claiming that the 13,243 women who had terminations were denied proper counselling advice.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 35,947 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail


    Wrong thread. cant delete



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,892 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    Obviously in their view any woman who didn't change her mind about having an abortion didn't get proper "counselling" 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,310 ✭✭✭✭ Loafing Oaf


    You wait three years for a 'safe access' bill and then two of them come along at once. Not sure how this works: does the government vote down the SF bill and pass their own, which they presumably believe is better?

    Surprised we haven't got a full plan for the review yet, time running out if it's going to be done by the end of the year.

    P.s. took me a couple of minutes to find this thread again, new site is really a faff



  • Registered Users Posts: 35,947 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail


    if they are smart they will add the best bits of the SF bill to the government bill to ensure that the bill passes quickly. Unfortunately politicians are rarely smart.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,323 ✭✭✭✭ Peregrinus


    The government has a safe majority. It doesn't need to add bits of the SF Bill to its in order to get it passed. Plus, adding bits of the SF Bill would not necessarily secure extra votes anyway; SF could still vote against it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 35,947 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail


    to get it passed they don't need SF votes but , I am open to correction on this, SF can certainly slow down the passage of the bill. A compromise would ensure that doesn't happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,310 ✭✭✭✭ Loafing Oaf


    So why is SF introducing a bill at all? To light a fire under the government? So that they can say afterward our bill would have been better on grounds x, y and Z?



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,323 ✭✭✭✭ Peregrinus


    They can't really slow it down. Plus, even if the could, it would probably be a politically costly thing for them to do.

    Yes, probably for reasons like that. They probably hope to say that the government only introduced its Bill in response to the SF Bill so, even if (as is likely) its the government Bill that gets passed, SF will claim credit for making that happen, or at least for making it happen sooner than it otherwise would have. Plus it positions them as proactive on this issue, which is how they want to be seen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,892 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    I posted this in the NMH thread but it's also relevant to here:

    The Make Our National Maternity Hospital Public campaign said on Sunday, however, that the proposed deal would not settle rows on governance and that they are “merely a smoke and mirrors exercise to deflect from legitimate concerns around ownership, and the intransigence of an organisation determined to hold on to a valuable asset”.

    The campaign will hold a vigil at the Dáil this Thursday to remember Savita Halappanavar on the ninth anniversary of her death, and to “highlight the need for public, secular ownership of our new National Maternity Hospital”. 

    Nine years... wow. She and her husband should be raising their family today and we'd never have heard of them...

    We've come a very long way since then but a long way still to go, too.




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,310 ✭✭✭✭ Loafing Oaf


    NI Secretary putting his foot down over abortion

    TBH I don't really understand what's going on here, where exactly is the blockage? Is it the health trusts themselves that are dragging their feet? Surely they know that true authority resides with Westminster and if they were keen to offer the services they could just ignore Stormont?

    Also I don't think it's fair to be putting part of the blame on Michelle O'Neil. AFAIK SF are doing whatever they can to get things moving.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,993 ✭✭✭✭ aloyisious


    According to Sinn Fein on the RTE 1 7AM to 9AM news programme today, it is the DUP who is behind the delay. A vote was held by the Health Committee in the assembly recently on the issue and only two members [Alliance & 1 other] voted for allowing abortion rights to go ahead. The other 7 members, incl SF, DUP, UUP, either abstained or voted against the motion. SF apparently on the grounds that it wants the law on both sides of the border to allow for the same rights at the same time and as the law doesn't, SF did not vote FOR the motion. SF did not bash the NI Secretary and did not praise him either where his declaration of making a move on abortion rights is concerned. I'd say the RTE 1 news podcasts will have the SF interview available later today or tomorrow. I got the distinct impression that SF are fence-sitting on the issue of equality of abortion rights law is concerned on both side of the border.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,310 ✭✭✭✭ Loafing Oaf


    My understanding is that motion related specifically to the right to abortion in cases of “severe foetal abnormality”. Okay pro-choice campaigners may be disappointed SF does not back that right but AFAIK they are not dragging their feet in any way on the broader question of the right to abortion in the early weeks of pregnancy.

    Obviously SF don't want to be seen to be too fulsome in their praise of anything an NI secretary does but they seem to be backing him up here

    O’Neill said: “I’m glad that I have the correspondences from Brandon Lewis that they will move if this blockage doesn’t end, they’ll move to commission the services. It’s long overdue and needs to happen now.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,993 ✭✭✭✭ aloyisious


    Ta for that. I heard something else today about the vote and it mentioned the delay in passing the motion meant that pregnant women in N/I would have to either travel to Britain for an abortion if they were carrying a "severe fatal foetal abnormality" foetus or end up carrying it to a dead full term delivery if they stayed in N/I. The mindset of politicians to turn to a woman or girl in N/I in that situation seems, despite all the Belfast and mainland UK cases brought by women to change that bloody-minded local political mindset, and say "NO, NO, NO" means they are time-warped.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,892 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    Sadly, a story very familiar to Irish readers...

    However, the family's lawyer argued that the tighter restrictions meant that doctors waited too long to act. There were silent protests against the near-total abortion ban in Krakow, Warsaw and Gdansk on Monday, a public holiday in predominantly Roman Catholic Poland.

    The woman was in her 22nd week of pregnancy when she was taken to hospital in Pszczyna, a small southern town near Katowice, not far from near the Czech border. Her foetus lacked amniotic fluid and, according to a tweet from Ms Budzowska, doctors had waited for the foetus to die.

    The mother reportedly sent a text saying her fever was rising and she was worried about going into septic shock, which then led to her death. She leaves a husband and daughter. Protesters blamed last year's abortion law, which outlawed terminations in cases of foetal defects.


    "I think the ruling has made it more complicated for hospitals because medical professionals are terrified now," Antonina Lewandowska from the Federation for Women and Family Planning told the BBC.

    "They don't know the law inside out, they only know there is a ban on abortion and they are scared to act." She said the federation was organising legal workshops in clinics and hospitals across the country to raise awareness of what could and could not be done.




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,310 ✭✭✭✭ Loafing Oaf


    Seemingly the review of the legislation only has to be 'initiated' by the end of 2021, and an expert has yet to be appointed to conduct it, so we could be waiting a while yet...





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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,310 ✭✭✭✭ Loafing Oaf


    Abortion Working Group trying to light a fire under S Donnelly over the review

    Orla O’Connor, NWC director, said significant legal changes and practice improvements were required if the Termination of Pregnancy Act is to guarantee equitable, accessible and legal abortion for all in need.

    I actually think they might get a lot of this. IMO the politically advantageous thing here is to give the opposition and the activists most of what they are looking for.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,780 ✭✭✭ Igotadose


    Delay, deflect, confuse, defer... Hmm...who are pulling Donnelly's strings. Gimme an R.


    Maybe he'll wait for 9 months to go by and then announce it's too late. That'd be kind of poetic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,310 ✭✭✭✭ Loafing Oaf


    Anti-abortion campaigners have called on the Government to make changes to Ireland’s abortion laws,

    Be careful what you wish for guys.

    I wonder do this crew realise they no longer have any leverage, and there is no incentive for the government to pay them a blind bit of notice any more. Well I reckon they will when they see what comes out of the review...



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,892 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    “The numbers have spiralled, so they’ve had 13,243 abortions since the law came into effect ,” she said.

    Yes, and?

    “That’s a 70 per cent increase on previous figures, a massive increase.” 

    Liars.

    And they still regard women as idiots who don't know their own minds or bodies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,892 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    The US supreme court began hearing the case yesterday against the Mississippi abortion law.

    Ironically, at 15 weeks it's a bit less restrictive than ours... but this is the first opportunity for the Trump-packed SC to strike down Roe v. Wade which would obviously have far wider implications than banning abortions after 15 weeks in Mississippi.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,780 ✭✭✭ Igotadose




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,310 ✭✭✭✭ Loafing Oaf


    Our esteemed health minister is finally set to give us the lowdown on the review before some Dail committee on Wednesday. Which just happens to be the feast of the Immaculate Conception...



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,310 ✭✭✭✭ Loafing Oaf


    Well Minister Donnelly 'appeared before the Oireachtas Health Committee' but tbh didn't give a lot away because 'he does not want to pre-judge the outcome of the review.'  However he did concede

    he was not currently satisfied with the "ease of access that is required" in Ireland and he said that he hopes that the review will help address those problems.




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,993 ✭✭✭✭ aloyisious


    According to the online site, breakingnews.ie, the government has been accused of taking a "political decision" not to review the legislation underpinning the abortion services. Minister Donnelly said a scheduled review of the law would look at its operation, but was not intended to examine policy on terminations. Alan Kelly said the approaches ruled out any changes to the law, suggesting it was because many FF TD's were opposed to it in the first place, asking him if he and the Minister for health distrusted Irish women. Mr Kelly had more to say on the issue that's available on breakingnews.ie for those who want to see it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,892 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    Load of bollox. The review was always supposed to be not just about the operation of the legislation, but the legislation itself. There was nothing at all stopping them doing a review of the (sub-par tbh) operation of the legislation long before now, why wait 3 years if that's all they're doing? Fúcking FF that's why.



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