The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Upforthematch · 08-11-2021 11:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139069#Comment_118139069

Interestingly enough, sometimes Irish speakers are stopped from speaking Irish in a medical setting. Only this week there was controversary about Childline and the fact that it is only provided in English for clinical accountability reasons (a valid reason in my view, but let's not go there)

You very much view languages through a narrow utilitarian lens. More speakers = better. No ready made opportunity to speak = delete. You clearly will never value any minority language, despite being schooled through one.

That's your experience and that's fine. But to misquote Wittgenstein.... "“The limits of my language mean the limits of my world.”

deirdremf · 08-11-2021 11:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137925#Comment_118137925

I may have overstated the case, but let's assume for a moment that in real life your name is Irene but every time I meet you I call you Gobnait (knowing full well what your name actually is) - well how would you feel about that?

deirdremf · 08-11-2021 11:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138017#Comment_118138017

This idea might work for pre-school, providing you were setting up a new system.

It wouldn't work at Primary level because the teachers already employed would not implement it; they would pretend to do so until they voted the government out and voted in a government that reversed the decision.

You need to set up new schools, starting from scratch, where the teachers are newly-employed staff who buy into the idea as part of the job from the word go.

Of course teachers already in the current system could swap over, but into a new, separate system. If a re-training course was provided for these teachers, it would make it easier for them to make the move. But human nature being what it is, they would have to decide to make the move, into a different system, individually and each one for her/himself.

gormdubhgorm · 08-11-2021 11:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139021#Comment_118139021

The easyosy approach, is probably more practicable I suppose. But after over 100 years of fluting around with the Irish language. I think something radical has to be tried at this stage before it is too late. There is a latent middle ground there just waiting for a spark. As another poster said most Irish people like Irish (would not want the language lost) but are either too lazy/afraid to take practicable steps. Are people waiting for when is on it's knees completely only then only start?

I realise this is boards.ie and it has its own type of 'culture' driven by certain posters in various subjects. But the fact that threads like this get created at all, shows some have a really odd relationship or former relationship, with the Irish language. The mindset is really warped.

I would struggle to think of anything comparable for some of a nation to completely despise their own language and view it as as enveloping (when it is nothing of the sort) far, far, from it is merely a veneer. The usual 'half measures' playing to the gallery - ticking boxes. If there was real 'creeping prominence' there would have been real tangible results many decades ago. That is the real irony of this thread.

09-11-2021 12:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139179#Comment_118139179

I see shite posted on boards about the Irish language that I would simply never hear in real life. I saw a woman and a small child in my local supermarket on Saturday, chatting away to each other as Gaeilge while the wee lad operated the self-scanner with varying degrees of success. I'm trying to picture some of the more "out there" contributors to the boards "culture" running down the dairy aisle after them to let them know it was all pointless and useless. 😁

But in any case, the education system is the same as any other system in society - a system that needs to operate within the parameters of society in order to be regarded as legitimate and deserving of public trust. Doubling down on compulsory learning won't work, not just for Gaeilge but for the school system generally. We do need change, though, because continuing with the same approach ain't working and won't work in the long run.

deirdremf · 09-11-2021 12:11AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138868#Comment_118138868

How effective are Gaelscoils at promoting Irish outside an educational setting/wider society

I think that in general they are as effective in promoting Irish outside the school gates as the English-language system is in promoting English outside their school gates.

The point I am making is that these schools are primary schools that function through Irish. They ensure that their pupils reach Rang a 6 with a command of the Irish language along with whatever else the kids learn in any other school.

They are not institutions for promoting Irish outside the school day.

Even though I can't actually read your references. And to be fair your first link just links to a website, not actual research. I'm too long out of the education system and my Irish is no longer remotely good enough to be able to understand the second one, if it ever was good enough in the first place. (Again that represents an interesting problem in itself because if you print research in only in Irish you are basically preaching to the converted. To read any language in an academic context you need a very high level of fluency.)

"to be fair" you say but your comments seem totally unfair to me; I think you do a good line on complaining, maybe you should do your own research?

So I don't know if that deals with how Gaelscoils specifically promote Irish language use in a wider societal setting ie outside the education system.

As I said, they don't - that's not their function.

Try Glór na nGael, Spleodar and other similar bodies.

You can have all the effective teaching methods you want with Irish but its a waste of money and time if the minute a person leaves the school gates they don't use a word of it. That time and money could be spent on other things that support the language better potentially. Again to know that you need research done.

Personally, I can think of no better way of supporting the language than producing a body of new speakers who will retain the ability throughout their lives, if only to watch TG4 or listen occasionally to RnaG.

Regarding the time and money being spent on other things, I'm curious as to why you feel that more time and money is needed to provide education through Irish than through English? Most people seem to think that they do a good job of providing an ordinary primary education while imparting fluency in a second language too.

Evade · 09-11-2021 12:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139111#Comment_118139111

Well if your doctor doesn't understand you you can't get adequate treatment.

Languages are utilitarian first, everything else is just a bonus. And broadly speaking more speakers is better, it means more people to communicate with. Maybe it's because I was educated in a minority language that I don't find value in it. Granted Irish is probanly unique in that 99%+ of its speakers also speak the other national language.

I don't think that really applies to me. If I count Junior Cert German and Leaving Cert French I'm on language number five now, I have plenty to draw from.

Evade · 09-11-2021 12:25AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139133#Comment_118139133

I think if someone was doing it intentionally they're being a dick but I don't think that's a fair characterisation of Bordise using Gaelic, I still remember mixed message corrections by different teachers on carr vs gluaisteán and chuig vs go dtí.

deirdremf · 09-11-2021 12:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139069#Comment_118139069

I do so because it's more practical to speak the dominant language, if I moved to Spain I'd learn Castilian Spanish not Basque. I've said before I found no use for Irish once school was over in theory I could have used Irish for many things but saw no reason too.

That's fair enough, it's a personal choice and I have no difficulty with you exercising that choice. I would point out though that you were able to make that choice, while a great many others have been unable to make the choice owing to not having reached your ability in Irish.

Only Irish speakers can provide those services, where are they?

Again, no one is stopping a GP or hospital from doing this.

And there was me thinking that we were discussing services provided by the State, how foolish can a person get?

A lack of fluent qualified teachers is stopping them. Only something Irish speakers can remedy.

So who decided to close down the system that produced fluent, qualified teachers? I mean a decision has to be taken by someone somewhere, doesn't it?

I think that's a little paranoid, apathy is a much more likely reason.

If you study the actions of the State from the late 1940s onwards, as I have done, you would see that a clear pattern emerges, with services being withdrawn, one by one, in health, in education, in administration, in the Gardaí, until we reach the place we are at today. Apathy would have left the services in place, IMO.

There's an estimated 170,000 fluent speakers today and there were 553,000 on the 1911 census which as far as I know wouldn't be inflated by the cupla focail numbers.

I'm not sure where you get your estimated numbers from, but I believe you should read the statistics a little closer. Not all fluent speakers speak Irish every day, or even every week, owing to many of them living outside a network of Irish speakers.

Moreover, there are no stats on passive speakers - people who listen to the radio, or who watch TG4 or engage with others on the internet.

Regarding the 1911 stats, various members of my family were put down on that census as speaking Irish, great-uncles and great-aunts, and I never heard that any of them could actually speak a word of the language. So don't put too much faith in it.

09-11-2021 12:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139239#Comment_118139239

You have plenty to draw from? If you say so. How's your conversational French, German, Japanese?

09-11-2021 12:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139246#Comment_118139246

There is a difference between "carr v gluaisteán" and "chuig v go dtí". In the former case, some people just prefer one word over the other (I use "carr"). If teachers give mixed messages for those, that's merely an expression of their preferences and they should say so (but that's a failing not confined to teachers of Irish). In the latter case, there are right and wrong ways to use the terms "go", "go dtí" and "chuig" (throw "chun" in there for good measure), and learners of Irish often mix them up. If teachers give mixed messages for those, there's a possibility they're making a b****x of the grammar, and they're not supposed to do that.

deirdremf · 09-11-2021 12:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139101#Comment_118139101

Well put (in all respects). I wouldn't necessarily see the relationship between input-process-output working quite as directly as you do, but I do think it provides the right mixture of opportunity and motivation to people, and I do think it could do much to broaden the appeal and use of Irish.

Yes, of course, you are right - it doesn't follow that the same would happen in Ireland as has happened in the Basque country; however surveys have shown that a quarter of parents would send their children to a Gaelscoil if one was available to them, and this is in fact the case in Galway city. AFAIK demand continues to rise in Galway. It will be interesting to see where they will level off.

So whatever the final outcome might be, we can be fairly certain that there is huge pent-up demand for such a service, and it is in the nature of things that when something becomes available and popular, demand often grows. But while I do agree that it isn't necessarily the case that we would end up with a majority of kids attending a Gaelscoil, I feel that there is a very good chance that this would happen.

gormdubhgorm · 09-11-2021 12:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139222#Comment_118139222

I am still surprised what you said about the primary school teachers. Maybe what I was basing it on has changed. Where the young primary teachers could only get sub work etc.

09-11-2021 12:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139276#Comment_118139276

Thanks for that. I do think that Gaelscoileanna suffer from the same inertia issues as non-faith schools. The system is built around local patronage and management, which is primarily English-based. It is tricky if not impossible to switch languages (as it is with ethos), so Gaelscoileanna only appear when the Minister is considering patronage of new schools. But new schools are only a tiny fraction of the total, and over the next few years the number of new primary schools being opened is going to dwindle because of demographic factors. We can seek to have further new schools built to overcome that, or we can seek to incentivise school managements and communities to switch, but either course of action costs money, which might not be available.

Evade · 09-11-2021 12:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139264#Comment_118139264

The reason I qualified French and German is I don't really use them either but I get bits and pieces when I watch something that has either. Japanese is low middling, I don't get a lot of chances to converse. I started in 2018 and skipped the 2019 JLPT window and haven't been able to take one since because of Covid. I scored well on the N4 practice test when I took it so I'm planning to skip straight to N3 in December 2022 if I stop slacking off on learning kanji.

Evade · 09-11-2021 12:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139262#Comment_118139262

The 170,000 estimate comes from Ethnologue via Wikipedia.

deirdremf · 09-11-2021 12:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139291#Comment_118139291

so Gaelscoileanna only appear when the Minister is considering patronage of new schools.

Yes, that is currently the situation. It remains to be seen whether a hypothetical change of governing party might bring about a change. Ó Snodaigh would certainly be up for it, and his leader's kids attend a Gaelscoil,so who knows?

09-11-2021 12:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139282#Comment_118139282

Teacher numbers expanded significantly in recent years, partly because of government decisions and partly because of rising pupil numbers (that curve is about to switch direction). Add in the extra number of teaching posts assigned to schools because of the pandemic, and some extra retirements probably also related to the pandemic, and we now have teacher supply issues. It's quite common at the moment to hear school managements and principals complaining about being unable to find staff and subs. The colleges can only do a certain amount, and results of that effort can take 4-5 years to materialise. It should ease off gradually in the next few years, but because pupil numbers in primary will fall and numbers in post-primary will rise, all that will do is transfer the problem from one part of the system to another.

Post-primary teachers still have it tough in the first few years of their careers - although you're more likely to land a full-time permanent job if you teach Maths, Physics, Home Economics, or Irish. English and History are a different matter.

Evade · 09-11-2021 12:57AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139275#Comment_118139275

I don't remember the specifics any more but it did seem it was some of the teachers putting their regional variances ahead as the "correct" Irish

09-11-2021 12:59AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139292#Comment_118139292

You should get stuck into the Japanese if you're into the culture. It's like looking into a hedge for me, but a workmate of mine is fluent and he says it has opened up his understanding of the place and the people to an unbelievable extent. I've school French, and I'm also no slouch, but there's not a chance I could use it in conversation without a fair bit of remedial study.

09-11-2021 01:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139303#Comment_118139303

There was a time when the Caighdeán was king, and that created its own problems (mostly inflexibilities). Nowadays the regional variances - canúintí - have been embraced and brought back in, which creates different issues (learners aren't always happy with multiple and ambiguous answers until they get a chance to build their confidence). I haven't heard anyone in recent years declaring either the Caighdeán or their own canúint to be the "correct" Irish - although of course people tend to be very fond of the Gaeilge from their own areas. However, I do hear teachers and lecturers say that you should try not to mix and match between the regional variations. It's not such a big deal with words, but there are some grammar constructions that are only used in Connacht, others only used in Donegal, others again only used in Kerry, and if a learner mixes them they can cause confusion for listeners.

09-11-2021 01:32AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139298#Comment_118139298

Deputy Ó Snodaigh grew up in an Irish-speaking household and attended Scoil Lorcán and Scoil Eoin. His father was president of Conradh na Gaeilge back in the late 1970s.

You can never tell with politics and politicians, though. For example, I wouldn't associate FG with positive vibes towards Gaeilge, but Leo Varadkar's enthusiasm and energy for the language is evident, as is the transformation in outlook and fluency shown by Joe McHugh, and I'd also say that Richard Bruton did more for Gaeltacht schools than most other education ministers.

09-11-2021 11:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137938#Comment_118137938

Let us know how you get on with your gaelic dictatorship

09-11-2021 11:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137990#Comment_118137990

I must commend you on your imagination

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 09-11-2021 11:25AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138904#Comment_118138904

On the first point:

You - "Indeed, I've seen your posts on the Irish language over several years, and they are generally contemptuous."

Me - "No you haven't, and no I haven't"

You - I've no idea what you are referring to here; but if you are saying you have never posted about Irish in the past, well it must have been a different PCB.

-- I'm refering the the bit that they are "generally contemptuous" - which mysteriously disappeared from you quote above.

ON the second point:

Just to clarify soemthing which I genuinely think is being misunderstood: I'm talking about optional at secondary school. I've no problem with it being a part of core primary school teaching - I'm in favour of that. You mentioned in a later point being parents the option to send their kids to a Gaelscoil - sure. No problem. Good idea. I'm also in favour of English literature and advanced maths being optional after the nessecary life-skill levels have been attatined.

On the third point:

Saying that we need to do more of something you admit doesn't work well is.... kind of stupid. Not to mention arrogant when your stance effects tens of thousands of peope whose opnions you don't care about.

On the fourth point:

It's not a life skill. It might be a career skill if they're teachers for example, but that's not a life skill.

And finally, let's not go down the road of ad homeinems. That's just weak. Stick to the arugments presented. I refuse to beleive there is no way to revive the langauge without duress and force, but if there isn't, then what does that tell you about the population? Are they ALL "generally contemptuous"? Is every leaveing cert student who wants to do somethign orther than Irish "generally cotemptuous"?

PeadarCo · 09-11-2021 11:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139230#Comment_118139230

If schools are not a means for promoting Irish outside schools why is there an obsession with having Irish in schools at all? You talk as if Irish is a dead language like Latin. What's the point of a language if its not used to communicate? Even referencing TG4 and RnaG is not a good sign as people increasingly move to media outlets like Netflix, YouTube etc. Look at government and talk about moving away from the TV licence due to less and less people owning a TV.

More money is required for teaching education through Irish compared to English for a number of reasons.

One English is the primary native language in Ireland. Its the first language the vast majority of the population learns to speak as a child. A huge amount of English education is effectively free as its done at home by parents and care givers. Irish with a vastly smaller amount of speakers(outside the education system that is) means the same education is not given in Irish and the relevant language skills and knowledge for Irish are not as developed.

Two English as the most wide spread International language has educational resources Irish will never match. https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/hr-topics/behavioral-competencies/global-and-cultural-effectiveness/pages/viewpoint-the-silencing-of-esl-speakers.aspx Approximately 75% of English speakers are not native speakers. Therefore if you want to teach something through English you have far more ready to use resources available. A perfect example is Wikipedia and the amount of articles in English on the site when compared to every other language.

Three there is far more incentive to learn English than Irish and learn things through English. If you go outside your own country English is a good language to know because it aids communication with people who don't speak your language. The number of non native speakers of English is testament to that. And remember a lot of these non native speakers will be native speakers of languages that have many multiples of daily speakers when compared to Irish.

Four and this is really a summary of my previous points English as a language has a wider eco system. More speakers more and wider variety content creators/services etc which means teaching through English will always be cheaper by a wide margin when compared to Irish. Now obviously that extra cost isn't a show stopper. However money isn't limitless and even at that why spend money on some that doesn't work and that goes for anything.

You also make the point of having people who speak the language but only listen to TG4 and RnaG. But from my point of view I wouldn't view them as speakers of the language. If you don't use a language you begin to forget it and a person's ability to understand it declines over time. Again as a person who left school with a conversational level of Irish I find my French is now better. That's despite being more proficient in Irish leaving school. The reason for that is that I've have used/interacted with speakers of French in both a social and professional setting since leaving school.

And to bring it back to my question point why are Gaelscoils a sign of the strength of the Irish language at least as a living language? Based your response Gaelscoils are irrelevant to the discussion .

boardise · 09-11-2021 01:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140627#Comment_118140627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118133122#Comment_118133122

Excellent post PeadarCo. It's tiresome to have to keep pointing out the blindingly obvious. Gaelic lobbyists ( to put it as politely as I can) know all these facts as well but persist in being a nuisance in pushing futile fantasies.It was a bad day for Ireland when the 1937 Constitution inserted the official status of Gaelic as part of the package. It was another blow to reason and sanity when the Official Languages Act appeared in 2003. By then the atmosphere was so PC that any kind of minority was so sanctified that politicians were running scared of any flimsy trumped up charge of 'discrimination'. The spineless wimps in the Dáil meekly went along with the nonsense -and the EU is just as bad with its ludicrous maelstrom of official languages.God only knows what costs and delays are occasioned by this madness.

Some of the posts here show a complete lack of realism as well as the usual revivalist tactic of gratuitously casting slurs on anyone who refuses to be browbeaten into going along with crazy madcap schemes. Other posts are indeed almost comical with arcane cultural assertions ranging from references to the Tuatha Dé Danann to codology about placenames -as if people are likely to learn a language to be able to etymologise placenames !

I've seen and heard all the 'arguments' and claims about Gaelic and the revival for over half a century-they are utterly spurious and do not stand up to challenge or rational analysis.Deviousness ,disingenuousness and delusion are the stock in trade of too many Gaeilgeoir types as they continually try to foist a pointless project on the general population.