The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137938#Comment_118137938

The majority were proven to be in favour of those measures.

The majority has not been proven not be in favour of your idea. You just assumed it.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118133070#Comment_118133070

If is cheaper than English medium education for the parents, there would suddenly be an interest. Grants could be used to incentivise parents. And resistance levels drop EU funding could be used.

As part of the EU's drive towards maintaining cultural heritage and so on.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118133080#Comment_118133080

Why would you have to find 66,000 Irish speaking qualified teachers?

There is plenty of Primary School qualified teachers who cannot find work as it is.

You train the teachers to the required level over time.

Phase 1 first five years Irish preschools Naionrai

Phase 2 all Primary Schools all state run Irish Language Medium the five years after that

Gradual phasing in of Irish Language medium at secondary school level at junior cycle - in another five years and senior sycle in the subsequent five years.

That is 20 year programme plenty of time for the Teachers to get with it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137990#Comment_118137990

Can I see your budget figures and cost evaluations on this, please?

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138017#Comment_118138017

Because there are around 66,000 teachers currently employed in Ireland, presumably your great leap forward would need as many. Like I pointed out in another post that would mean taking every single one of 24 years worth of Leaving Cert students who sat the tests in Irish, the most likely candidates to be able to teach lessons solely through Irish, to fill those roles, not factoring in if they would get the required points for teaching or what they want as a career.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138063#Comment_118138063

Now your being facetious.As you are no doubt aware part of the tenets of the EU is protection of cultural heritage.

https://ec.europa.eu/culture/policies/selected-themes/cultural-heritage

Much like the revamping of Ireland's road infrastructure which leaned heavily on EU money to make it work over a number of decades. Developing Ireland's Irish language infrastructure could be done in the same manner.

I would argue it is far less costly than building, road and transport infrastructure. But much more valuable from an intrinstic cultural heritage standpoint.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/note/join/2013/495851/IPOL-CULT_NT%282013%29495851%28SUM01%29_EN.pdf

The European Parliament agrees with me in a 2013 report above the following was stated -

'Robust educational policies are required to promote the learning and use of endangered languages.'

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138126#Comment_118138126

Again - can I see your budget figures and cost evaluations on this, please? These are not figures.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118136445#Comment_118136445

Yeah, can those ****ing people with their ****ing weird noises not just shut up and speak English like everyone else in the galaxy?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137786#Comment_118137786

Gaelic (pronounced "Gallic") is also the word used by Scots in English to describe Gàidhlig. The musician Eamonn Doorley is married to a Gàidhlig speaker, and I recall him telling a story at a gig once about how he met an older relative of hers for the first time and she commented "I see you speak the Gaelic in Ireland too". But I've never heard an Irish person use Gaelic as the English word to describe the Irish language, except for one or two examples I've heard when people were taking the piss - and I'd describe it as "taking the piss" rather than the kind of outright hostility you see on this forum.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138017#Comment_118138017

Sorry, but I have to part company with you there. There is a shortage of primary teachers right now. It's likely to ease over the next 7-8 years, but right now there is a lot of pressure on the system and Covid hasn't helped.

Not that it matters. Regardless of the quality or reasonableness of the ideas you put forward, the noisy Anglos will always find some excuse to say no.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138347#Comment_118138347

Why don't you ask them?

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134271#Comment_118134271

In what way do Gaelscoils help the Irish language? What studies have been done? Gaelscoils have been around long enough for proper research to have been conducted. Just because a person speaks Irish in classroom for a few years doesn't mean they will start speaking the language outside an educational setting. Irish outside the education system is the problem because the government doesn't have access to a large enough pool of Irish speakers to provide the services through Irish that Irish speakers want. You can't force people speak a language they don't want to without turning into a totalitarian state. Something no one wants.

One of the most frustrating aspects of these debates is how little research has been done. Irish has been taught in the education system for a hundred years plus at this stage. Even on this thread the future of Irish language seems to based on its use in the education system. Is this the best strategy or is does an entirely different approach need to taken?

I asked this question earlier in the thread and the answer was more or less that no research has been done. For anyone who seriously wants the language to survive and grow surely a study of the strategies both past and present should be done. Even if it uncovers some uncomfortable realities. It would a least enable some sort of fact based discussion.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118134245#Comment_118134245

I think that's the point though, people coming out of gaelscoils aren't going about "waving flags" our acting like loonies. It's just part of everyday learning, the way it should be.

But, in general, they don't hate the language either - the proof of the pudding is the level of 2nd generation gaelscoil children that are currently going through the system and keeping the numbers up.

That's great you're interested in Japanese, it's a hobby for you. I'm interested in Irish, not because it's a hobby but because it is part of my cultural identity. I would feel like something was missing for me personally if it wasn't there.

Kids are given exposure to many things in school and if they want to dump them afterwards that's fine too. People change their minds as well and many learners I have met have come back to it many years later because they were inspired by someone or something.

I remember meeting someone who found the 1916 GPO exhibit very important to them on their return to Irish. Someone else met a friend speaking Irish to someone else and he never knew his friend had Irish and that motivated him to look again.

Everyone has their own story when it comes to Irish and for someone @Evade vehemently picking through the posts of the people encouraging more Irish, I'm really glad you left school neither liking nor disliking the language. At least your teachers didn't "bate" the language into you nor the curriculum give you reason to launch a lazy rant at Peig, which has to be the biggest cliché going in the anti-Irish brigade of a certain age.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138658#Comment_118138658

I totally accept and respect your stance - but the fact is not everyone feels the same way and it's totally fine to not have any affinity for the langauge.

Just on one point you made - "Kids are given exposure to many things in school and if they want to dump them afterwards that's fine too" - Id argue that if there;s to be a revival, then kids dumping the langauge when they leave school would be far from "fine", it would need to be the first issue addressed.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138629#Comment_118138629

What makes you think no research has been done?

There are several books and many articles on this because don't forget all the universities have Irish departments focusing on language acquisition not just on the literature side.

Regarding your question on the education system - it is obvious to me that a large part of this debate relates to the education system, why wouldn't it? Look at the successes made to date. People in their 70's have "the beatings" to blame for their Irish woes, people in their 50's have Peig to blame and now these days archcritics leaving the school system only have their own apathy to blame. That's progress in my book.

Here are two links if you're interested in knowing more

One partisan - https://gaeloideachas.ie/i-am-a-researcher/

One academic - https://www.siopaleabhar.com/en/product/foghlaim-an-dara-teanga-modhanna-agus-tascanna-sa-seomra-ranga-leabhar-taighde/

The blurb on this book states: This book is a work in Irish on learning and teaching languages. It presents research from relevant academic fields, both general research and research that deals specifically with learning Irish. The book’s chapters explore aspects of the psychology of first- and second-language learning, and the basis (theoretical and practical) of various language teaching methods. Issues around the capacity of individuals to learn languages, and the processes involved in doing so, are discussed, as well as teaching methodologies which support them. Clear examples and recommendations are given to help readers understand the process of language learning and to make important decisions regarding teaching methods in different contexts.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138689#Comment_118138689

This is where I differ from @gormdubhgorm - I totally accept that there is not going to be a "revival" in a huge swing, nor should any dramatic measure be taken to try to achieve this. "Creeping promience" to quote the title of this thread is perfectly fine with me. What is required is a critical mass. That used to be provided by the gaeltachts and that is going out with the tide.

What's happening now is much more interesting I think and one thing I particularly like about it is that it is very democratic. Let me explain. I have met many Irish speakers from counties that have had no Irish speaking tradition for a long time and I think that is absolutely wonderful and unifying (given the historical East/West split etc...) To me that is one of the major achievements of the school system, it opens doors that societal pressures want to keep closed and removes barriers to entry.

The other major change helping to restore and replenish the critical mass is the internet. It has never been easier to learn Irish because there are excellent online resources now. The professionalisation of the language thanks to the demands of translators has also had huge spin off benefits for more advanced learners as well.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129613#Comment_118129613

I don't care what language you speak to your family in but ... you don't need to speak to them in Irish

Well that is big of you.

However, you claimed that in your youth you spoke Irish as well as anyone outside the Gaeltacht, so clearly you don't need to speak to your children (if you have any) in English, but you choose/chose to.

Which is fine, but it certainly isn't your decision as to whether a person from the Gaeltacht, or indeed any Irish speaker, should be denied services such as education or health in their native language.

While I can see difficulties might attach to providing health services in Irish in the wilds of Wicklow, there should be no such difficulty in doing so in at least one location in each of our main cities. We've had 100 years to organise this, and if it hasn't happened it is because the decision not to do so has been taken somewhere.

There is certainly no difficulty in providing education through Irish in every town in Ireland, for those that wish for their family to be educated through the medium of that language; as things stand, virtually every town has at least two primary schools (one for boys and the other for girls) proving the ability to do so. All that is lacking is reorganisation, so that one continues to provide education through English and the other is converted to a Gaelscoil. However the last 100 years hasn't seen this happen.

To put that in another way, there is a body of people - probably loosely organised - in places where it matters, who have decided to make life as difficult as possible for Irish speakers in the hope that we will go away.

Curiously, while this has had the effect of diminishing the size of the Gaeltacht in both physical terms and also in terms of population, the fact remains that many more people today speak Irish than were able to do so in 1921. Instead of going away, today we have a presence in every part of the country.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138808#Comment_118138808

I always felt that the critical mass was always there - but it was like a platform people seemed to settle for. As long as no one rocked the boat or messed up the numbers, nothing bad would happen. Of course, nothign positive would happen either, but they seemed to accept that.

The language was/is never in danger of endangerment, but it was never moving forward either.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129580#Comment_118129580

People who don't speak those langauges lead succesful, happy, fully-functioning lives.

A lot of anger here. You sure don't seem very happy.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138845#Comment_118138845

Depends on the drugs, really :)

Upforthematch

Instead of going away, today we have a presence in every part of the country.

That's huge I think. This of course also includes all counties of Ulster.

To me, this is what makes Irish different to many minority languages in Europe.

France has a dozen or so regional languages, a very different approach is taken to them than French.

However, in Ireland, we can truly say that Irish is our national language - despite valuing and communicating in English.

As long as Irish can keep its crtical mass of minority speakers - the compromise of 1922 (Irish & English) lives on and respects past and present.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138738#Comment_118138738

Thanks for that but it didn'tanswer my question. How effective are Gaelscoils at promoting Irish outside an educational setting/wider society? As I mentioned earlier in my post, when I asked earlier in the thread for evidence none was provided. On a more general point most of these threads don't reference any studies for the most part which does not help the debate from my point of view. You just end you with trench warfare that goes no where.

Even though I can't actually read your references. And to be fair your first link just links to a website, not actual research. I'm too long out of the education system and my Irish is no longer remotely good enough to be able to understand the second one, if it ever was good enough in the first place. (Again that represents an interesting problem in itself because if you print research in only in Irish you are basically preaching to the converted. To read any language in an academic context you need a very high level of fluency.) So I don't know if that deals with how Gaelscoils specifically promote Irish language use in a wider societal setting ie outside the education system. Based on the blurb in the link, it doesn't. You can have all the effective teaching methods you want with Irish but its a waste of money and time if the minute a person leaves the school gates they don't use a word of it. That time and money could be spent on other things that support the language better potentially. Again to know that you need research done.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138841#Comment_118138841

As Deirdre mentioned there are lots of barriers here - one on their own is enough to stop "progress".

1. Inertia
2. English is a global language
3. Irish was a language of "poverty"
4. Government apathy or policy of containment (depending on one's opinion)
5. Learning any language to comfortable B2/C1 level is freaking difficult

The fact that Irish lives on and won't die out (just like this thread on boards.ie I hear you all murmering!!) is a witness to something you know. Just what is it about this language that keeps sparking interest and passion - positive and negative!

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129604#Comment_118129604

No you haven't and no I haven't.

I've no idea what you are referring to here; but if you are saying you have never posted about Irish in the past, well it must have been a different PCB.

My stance is simple: I'm all for the preservation and betterment of the langauge by any means nessecary EXCEPT mandatory Irish in schools because 1) I beleive students should choose for themsleves

Like maths and Shakespeare - one of which I liked and learned and the other I didn't like and didn't learn. And they were both mandatory in the school I attended, BTW. I didn't get to choose to do them at any level any more than I got to choose Irish.

and 2) it doesn't bloody well work! THe first one is apparently "Orwellian" and the second one seems to be the fart at the dinenr tbale everyone smalls but pretends not to notice.

Actually it does work, but it doesn't work very well because there isn't enough of it. This has been proved in international studies, as referred to earlier.

It's not a life skill for reasons pointed out at least four times: people lead succesful, happy, fully-functioning lives without Irish - prove this wrong and I'll retract the statement.

I understand that for you it's not a life skill because you don't want it to be so. But the reality is that for hundreds of thousands of Irish people it is a life skill. Probably not the 1.7 million that claim to speak it come census time, but certainly for one third to one half of that number.

Now if THAT stance makes me "geenrally contemptuous" than that's your opinion but I disagree that being "all for the preservation and betterment" of something is contemptuous.

Gimme a break, with your sort of preservation and betterment .... you'd have the Irish language in the grave in a week.

Oh, and by the way, looking at the way you have mangled the English language in that post, it won't last very long either!

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138868#Comment_118138868

Ok I understand you now. You are more interested in a sociological type of study "behaviour and attitudes".

I typed in "irish language sociological study" and there are quite a few studies there, I didn't go into the detail but you might want to if you're interested in this.

There is an interesting book you've reminded me by a UCC professor trying to get to the root cause of why some of Irish university students don't speak Irish outside of the classroom (yes, apparently this happens even at university), it's called "labhairt na gaeilge dúshláin is réitigh".

I haven't read it so I don't know the answers, but it sounds like what you're interested in.

https://www.siopaleabhar.com/en/product/labhairt-na-gaeilge-dushlain-is-reitigh/

That's an interesting point you have raised about the fact that these academic books are published in Irish. True, they limit the circulation but I don't think that's reason to believe they are only "preaching to the converted" because of it. You can tell even from this thread alone that Irish speakers are not a hivemind and I think that anyone who knows anything about Irish language academics could reassure that there is not a lack of debate and academic rigour!

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130151#Comment_118130151

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118132825#Comment_118132825

I understand where you are both coming from, but I feel that would be counter-productive.

For me, the way to go is to ensure that there is a Gaelscoil in every town, at primary and at secondary level alike.

The demand will increase in line with availability. And eventually, as has happened in the Basque country, the demand for English-language education will slowly diminish as people see that children leave the local Gaelscoil with an extra life skill. Those who are afraid their child might get left behind will quickly move their children to the Gaelscoil, even if they are themselves lukewarm towards Irish, and in a generation's time or so the only ones sending their kids to an English-language school will be the people who couldn't care less about their kids' education and those who have a huge ideological bias against the language.

This might be somewhat slower than your method, but would overall cause less tension in society. Don't deny them their hissy fit, it will keep them out of our hair.

Here's a graphic showing the changes in the Basque country since 1983. It shows a huge decrease in the Spanish-language system, a huge increase in the Basque-language system, and a rise followed by stagnation in the bilingual system.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118138826#Comment_118138826

Paragraph by paragraph responses.

I do so because it's more practical to speak the dominant language, if I moved to Spain I'd learn Castilian Spanish not Basque. I've said before I found no use for Irish once school was over in theory I could have used Irish for many things but saw no reason too.

Only Irish speakers can provide those services, where are they?

Again, no one is stopping a GP or hospital from doing this.

A lack of fluent qualified teachers is stopping them. Only something Irish speakers can remedy.

I think that's a little paranoid, apathy is a much more likely reason.

There's an estimated 170,000 fluent speakers today and there were 553,000 on the 1911 census which as far as I know wouldn't be inflated by the cupla focail numbers.

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118132766#Comment_118132766

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129431#Comment_118129431

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997673#Comment_117997673

To deirdremf -- Gaelic seems to me to be a highly suitable way to refer to the minority language under discussion.It has a long historical provenance tracing back to Goidelic ( Gwyddel etc ) It is more phonologically economical than a long-winded form like 'the Irish language'. Some of the first attempts at revival in the 19thC were mounted by the GAELIC League...with contributions from the GAELIC Athletic Association. Aodh de Blácam wrote a most important book on literature written in the language and titled it 'GAELIC Literature Surveyed'. Likewise Daniel Corkery's book 'The Hidden Ireland' was subtitled 'a study of GAELIC Munster in the 18th century'-featuring work by poets like Aogán O Rathaille ,Eoghan Rua O Súilleabháin who in my eyes are GAELIC poets to be distinguished from poets like Heaney ,Boland, Mahon ,Montague etc who are commonly termed Irish poets.

Comhaltas Ceoltoirí Eireann award medals which bear the legend ' Gael mise -nach uasal sin ?' What more natural than to dub the language spoken by Gaels - Gaelic ? I find it curious that so many Gaeilgeoirí want to disown the appellation.

To Fishdoodle and gormdubhgorm I can only say with the greatest of respect -there is a wide gulf between us and life is too short to try to address all the statements you have made and issue point by point rebuttals- much as I would relish doing so.

@[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139021#Comment_118139021

Well put (in all respects). I wouldn't necessarily see the relationship between input-process-output working quite as directly as you do, but I do think it provides the right mixture of opportunity and motivation to people, and I do think it could do much to broaden the appeal and use of Irish.

As I've mentioned already it's a bit of a risk posting reasonable suggestions given the extreme positions taken by those who are hostile to Irish; but all the same, someone has to act reasonably, and proportionate and balanced suggestions for change are the way to go. WADR to @[Deleted User] and @gormdubhgorm, I don't think it helps to pile compulsory measures on top of compulsory measures, but if a critical mass of people can be given the opportunity and persuaded into change, ultimately this offers the opportunity to one day remove the mandatory aspect. That'd be a positive outcome for everyone.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137917#Comment_118137917

GDG wants to take a sledgehammer to the nut, and in the process will destroy the nut.

PCB says s/he is in favour of providing choice: this is the way to provide choice (not her method of providing kids with the choice of not studying Irish at all; which would actually remove from them the choice to learn the language. They already have the choice of not learning it, by the simple expedient of not bothering to spend any time on it).

Give all parents the choice of sending their kid to a Gaelscoil, and an ever-growing minority will do so. I believe that the minority over a generation or so will turn into a majority, and we will eventually reach the stage where most kids are attending a Gaelscoil.