The creeping prominence of the Irish language

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129472#Comment_118129472

Irish is neither

to you, but it is desirable to a great many people in the country. A great many parents are having their children educated through Irish, so it is obviously desirable to those parents. It will probably be desirable to many of those kids, who will also wish for their children to be educated through Irish.

Thus, a desirable skill. Not to you, and that's fine. What surprises me for someone who couldn't care less about Irish is the amount of vehemence in your posts; not to mention that you bother posting on the subject at all.

It really seems to get your goat up for some reason, maybe you could share?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129460#Comment_118129460

"necessary or desirable" is what your definition said.

If I lived in a gaeltacht and was a native Irish speaker for example, I should be able to do 24 hours of activity through Irish and it is done.

1 Radio - check

2 Family - check

3 School - check

4 Doctor - check

5 Shop - check

6 Job - check

7 Exercise - check

8 TV & Online Content - check

9 Deal with state body through irish - "desirable" ;)

10 Religious service - check

Irish is my life-skill in this scenario and to tell me it isn't is not only factually incorrect but totally dismissive of me and my family.

What's interesting is that there are many new Irish that can tick a majority of these points in their native languages too. Go to more established migrant communities in the UK and they can tick almost all of them.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129509#Comment_118129509

Desirable to some absolutely but not in the context of "full participation in everyday life," who seems to be ignoring parts of the definition now? The reality of Ireland in 2021 is you might want Irish, that's fine I don't care what you do, but it's not necessary.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129529#Comment_118129529

But nobody who speaks Irish doesn't speak English any more so you're not being prevented from fully participating, it's just not in the exact way you want. You're twisting the definition of desirable away from "would benefit" to "would like." At the end of the day I agree with you that if the demand is there and there's an adequate supply you should be able to do all those things in Irish. But the supply doesn't seem to be there and the way things are going never will again, and that's fine. I have real doubts about the actual demand too.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129177#Comment_118129177

And again with the misrepresentation. Here: Chinese is not a life skill in Ireland. Polish is not a life skill in Ireland. Klingon is not a life skill in Ireland. Dothraki is not a life skill in English.

People who don't speak those langauges lead succesful, happy, fully-functioning lives.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129534#Comment_118129534

"a skill that is necessary or desirable for full participation in everyday life,"

Not your life obviously, but for many of us it is not only desirable, but absolutely necessary.

I mean I appreciate that you'd much rather I spoke English to my family, but for me it is my family language.

Then again for all I know you speak to your kids in whatever non-English language it is that you know. So you see, English isn't necessary for you, merely desirable! Moreover, as you claim to have once been fluent in Irish you could very easily be so again; therefore English is doubly not necessary for you as you have two other options if I understand you correctly.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129281#Comment_118129281

In Ireland?!

I mean, if we're going worldwide, sure - but then what percentage og 8 billion don't speak Irish and get alone fine?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129431#Comment_118129431

Oops. Don't pick them up for doing that. They don't like being caught out.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129560#Comment_118129560

I go back to my earlier comment

"Irish, what an impractical language, and you can be sure as fcuk we're going to keep it that way!"

Yes, in fact, the native Irish speaker is being prevented from fully participating by rejecting their right to live life through their native language and not recognising, even the possibility (!), that their native language is their life-skill in their community.

And you don't see how someone might be insulted by that stance?

@Princess Consuela Bananahammock same reply to your post.

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982454#Comment_117982454

It might be useful for younger folk here to google 'Language Freedom Movement Mansion House'. This tells of a shameful violent fascistic action on the part of a crazed mob of Gaelic fanatics to disrupt Irish citizens at a public gathering and prevent free unfettered discussion of their business. A little bit of 'Hidden History' so to speak.

Why is this pointless thread still running? Don't the noisy Anglos have anything better to do than rant in their echo chamber?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129318#Comment_118129318

No you haven't and no I haven't.

This is virtue signaling and playing the victim card and you're nto the victim.

My stance is simple: I'm all for the preservation and betterment of the langauge by any means nessecary EXCEPT mandatory Irish in schools because 1) I beleive students should choose for themsleves, and 2) it doesn't bloody well work! THe first one is apparently "Orwellian" and the second one seems to be the fart at the dinenr tbale everyone smalls but pretends not to notice.

It's not a life skill for reasons pointed out at least four times: people lead succesful, happy, fully-functioning lives without Irish - prove this wrong and I'll retract the statement.

Now if THAT stance makes me "geenrally contemptuous" than that's your opinion but I disagree that being "all for the preservation and betterment" of something is contemptuous.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129581#Comment_118129581

In a vacuum the dominant language is necessary it doesn't matter what it is.

English is necessary, I live in Ireland.

I don't care what language you speak to your family in but I'm going to make two assumptions, 1 - you also live in Ireland, and 2- your kids can also speak English. So you don't need to speak to them in Irish you want to and I'm not going to stop you, even if I could, but that doesn't detract from it being unnecessary.

I could relearn Irish but there's no benefit for me in doing so.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129584#Comment_118129584

And English is the most common second language in the world so knowing it is a benefit almost anywhere.

Rockfish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968593#Comment_117968593

But it was you who mentioned costs, would have thought you could have expanded on it, no? Maybe not so

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129604#Comment_118129604

Your criteria are wrong and exclusionary.

Some (and perhaps most) people lead successful, happy, fully-functioning lives in Ireland without Irish (i.e. with English).

That makes English a life-skill using your criteria, but that does not exclude Irish from being a life-skill.

And I refer you to my previous post.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129678#Comment_118129678

It's not my criteria - it's what the words actually mean.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129592#Comment_118129592

You are not being prevented from participating fully particiapating only not being able to particiapte in the exact way you want.

In the must-have, could-use, would-be-nice tier list of life skills Irish, in Ireland in 2021, is firmly in the would be nice category for Irish speakers.

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987297#Comment_117987297

The notion that Gaelic speakers in (the tattered remnants of ) the Gaeltacht are paid to speak the 'beautiful' ancestral tongue is flat out hilarious not to mention pure farcical.

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989404#Comment_117989404

And what in the name of the good God would be the point of this insane attempt at (socio)linguistic engineering ? I'm amazed there's anyone around who actually still thinks like this. This is the stuff of fantasy and delusion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211385/the-creeping-prominence-of-the-irish-language

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971761#Comment_117971761

I'm in favour of completely abolishing the English language in primary and secondary schools and replacing it with Irish. I don't see why that wasn't done from the very beginning in 1922.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130151#Comment_118130151

Put simply it's because the English language is Irelands primary native language for all practical purposes and has been for a long time. The first language most people learn to speak is English. Any attempt to support the Irish language is doomed to failure unless this simple fact is acknowledged.

My question was any study been actually done on the effectiveness of Gaelscoils and the current Irish language supports? A huge amount of investment has been focused on the school system but is this effective or are there better ways to support the language? What research has been done? Based on a century of having Irish in schools the best can be said is the language isn't dead. However this may be a success when competing against the global lingua franca. But again what does the research say?

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130151#Comment_118130151

If someone truly wanted to judge the actual support for the Irish language among the majority of Irish people trying the above would be a surefire way to find out and I'd bet it would not be the answer Irish language enthusiasts would want to hear.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130151#Comment_118130151

Kind of a linguistic "year zero" if you will.

Throw people into a forced labour camp if they resist. A Gaeltacht Gulag.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130936#Comment_118130936

Seomra a haon a naid a haon.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129995#Comment_118129995

Revival of a neglected cultural identity of Ireland. That has been severely neglected and requires a push for a mindset change. As evident from the OP's attitude. Instead of being proud of the Irish language the OP views the language as 'other' and a few signs written bilingually as an imposition. It is an extremely odd way of thinking and it is unfortunately a colonial hangover. Which resulted in sociolinguistic engineering in the first place. It would given time right a wrong and set things right. You can't make an egg without breaking a few omelettes.

All people need is a bit of a push. Instead of half doing it do it right or not at all. EU law would back it on a cultural basis and The bits and bobs of Irish legislation on the Irish language could actually be made use of for a change. Instead of this weak lily livered half assed approach on it. It is time to get tough on it. And stop the half assed softly. softly approach IMO. Or else don't bother at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118132766#Comment_118132766

How would you proceed

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118132782#Comment_118132782

I have already said as much on this thread numerous times. It seems simple to me. Make all schools Gaelscoils from at least Primary Level. And gradually secondary as well over time. As it takes effect over time 20 years or so. Phasing out of English spoken at civil service level and public places. Incentives for spoken Irish - when ordering car insurance on the phone through Irish etc. And eventually incentives for day to day activities when Irish language is spoken in the use of services in daily live. 20% off or something to that effect should do it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118132825#Comment_118132825

Oh, I thought you had serious ideas that might have some chance of support from the public.

What you propose is akin to the what the Soviets did with their satellite republics through forced learning of Russian.

Piollaire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036700#Comment_118036700

Us Irish speakers are more physically gifted than anglophiles and with our bionic vision can easily read small slanted text driving at 130 km/hour