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What are some of your unpopular fitness related opinions?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Cill94


    That was when I quit. Realised I liked rolling far more than drilling technique. Getting blitzed by people who drill for hours each week starts getting old after a while, and I much preferred lifting.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    So many people quit in BJJ around the 2 year mark - or on average when a lot of people get blue belt - it has become a meme in BJJ.

    I went AWOL at blue belt for a while, initially through injury and then I was dragging my feet coming back.

    There's a few things that go on, in my opinion. There's a steep learning curve and a lot of people have to work very hard to go from white to blue, it can be a bit Darwinian at that level and personally I incurred more regular injuries at that stage. I think some people "blow their load" and put all the effort into getting a blue belt and then they realise there is still another ... well, potentially 8 or so years ahead of them to black belt, and they have to keep improving as well.

    If you're phoning in your training or not showing up then your peers or even the people below you who are working harder will start to crush you, and that's no fun. So there's this continuous pressure to at least do enough to be worth your grade and to progress at the level you are meant to.

    Depending on the person, it can be difficult. If you have a busy job, work, lift or do another sport, then you might be training far less than someone who is living that BJJ lifestyle and is on the mats 5 or 6 days of the week.

    I've made my peace with it, but all I can say is that as a brown belt you still feel the same pressure as when you're a blue belt. You do kind of get used to it though, or at least accept that you just have to keep making a minimum investment in your training. If don't do as much mat time as people who live on them then you have to have a good specific game or position to default to, to make them fight on your terms, and it helps if your lifting means you're stronger than all of them.

    As far as drilling goes, I really think it's mostly pointless outside of as a warm-up activity. I do think there's some value to drilling takedowns, like uchikomi in Judo, but for most of BJJ I think drilling doesn't bridge between conceptual/technical training and actual rolling very well. About 90% of my training time now is rolling, I warm up, I do study technique in my own time but in terms of mat time it's about getting as many quality rounds in as possible. I know a lot of white and blue belts are stuck in structured classes where they cannot avoid drilling techniques, but all I can say is ... Yeah... Not my cup of tea.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Patsy167


    The broader concept of the learning curve dip probably explains it - When you start learning a new skill, your understanding goes up quickly and it's a lot of fun, but then as you learn more, you progression drops and you enter a phase that is very frustrating.

    If you've got the patience to keep going, eventually you come out of the other end and your skill level goes up again beyond the level that you got to during the fun phase, and after that it's satisfying.

    Here's the graph. Very relevant for weight loss journey's too - https://www.lostinthought.co.uk/images/learning/learning-graph.jpg



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    They weren't blitzing you because they drilled. It was the fact it was hours every week. Even if somebodys entire training is rolling, they still get better and better, possibly at a faster rate once they know basics. And if somebody is better than you on day 1, its hard to catch them. You only need to stay ahead of the guy after you.

    As for BJJ vrs lifting, if I had t ochoose one over the other I could. But I'll never need to. Do both

    I think it's just that 2 years is a reasonable amount of time to invest in a hobby. How many people learn guitar, play a bit for 2 years, then put it away. Ditto for photography, or lifting weights, or running. BJJ is slightly different in that it has milestones, people close to blue and mentally encouraged to keep going as its so close. But once they get there, they are probably as far as possible from promotion, even on day 1. That effort reward dip is conducive to quitting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Prehaps unpopular opinion here. But that graph makes no sense. :D

    I get what's its trying to say, but the Y-axis is mislabeled. Skill doesn't decline after the honeymoon period, in any activity (how could it?). The Y needs to be some other metric like perceived ability maybe. Or some other variable like transition from beginners lessons to advanced.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Cill94


    I'm aware it was because they put more time in than me. Interesting to hear that drilling isn't necessarily the done thing for getting better. The club I was in at the time was one of the best in Dublin in terms of winning comps and they seemed to be all about drilling.

    Either way, doesn't matter to me - I've no interest in going back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Hugely important for beginners. As they can’t get better at what they don’t know. But higher level guys spend disproportionately larger amounts of time rolling.

    Generally, drilling/passive training to learn, rolling/sparring/active training to improve.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Cill94


    That is essentially what they were teaching yes. 👍️ Seems the normal learning structure for most sports.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    After an Olympic bar sprang up in the air twice beside me in the space of a few minutes while I was on a rowing machine as the guys who were using it unloaded one side of the bar and not the other I think some people should stick to the machines. I don't like 20kg projectiles flying around.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭JayRoc




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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    Well, as you probably can imagine, you could have a club that spends a lot of time drilling and is the best performing competition club in the country, and the two things aren't necessarily causally related.

    The club that has the best reputation for producing competitors and winning in competition right now has a kind of critical mass of reputation and active competitors training together. Every year someone leaves another club and goes to them because of how they're doing in competition. I do think that eventually what has happened is you have a club stacked with winners.

    Now, this club also has a head coach who spent years travelling to the best gyms in the world and probably had a higher level of gi BJJ than anyone else in Ireland for years, so look, I'm not trying to take away from anyone either. If they drill a lot I also bet they roll a **** load, I'd be surprised if they didn't.

    I do think that yeah, beginners need to drill more and you do find high level BJJ competitors and coaches who are in the 'drills for skills' / 'drill to win' camp (Although I'd struggle to name them) and then there is an opposite camp. In the anti-drilling camp probably the best known is Kit Dale, who has a whole program based on concepts over technique, and Keenan Cornelius has talked a lot as well about how we thinks drilling is a waste of time.

    Personally I think the best compromise I came across is Straight Blast Gym's "I method", where they Introduce, Isolate and Integrate. The introduction stage is basically your cooperative technique practice and drilling. Isolation and integration are basically games and positional sparring where resistance progressively increases until you're using what you've learned in full sparring. It is the most cohesive approach I've ever come across in terms of the "how" of learning martial arts, and for beginners I think the way they use positional sparring (and frequently resetting people back to their starting positions) is safer than full sparring but way more productive than cooperative drilling.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,543 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I feel like a lot of people are quite cavalier about some of the complex lifts and how daunting they can be. I see a few people at my gym deadlift and it looks like the easiest way to end up with a recurring back injury. Don't even start me on the Overhead Press. Dropping a few dozen kilos of steel on my head is the first thing that springs to mind. Don't think anyone I see regularly really does it.

    I'm also of the opinion that most gym staff are useless. Don't know what it's like in Ireland but here in the UK, chain gyms are staffed by people who clearly don't give a toss or, arguably worse, corporate fake bubbly types who exhibit borderline predatory behaviour to make sales. I'm of the opinion that each branch should have at most, 3 people, 1 for cover and 2 to open up, clean and do the day to day admin.

    I appreciate that, at least the first point is mostly about me than other people. I can squat at least with a barbell so there's that.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,328 ✭✭✭the baby bull elephant



    Injury rates for the main barbell lifts are pretty low. It's funny you say you're comfortable squatting as despite the stigma deadlifts in particular get I would argue it requires a lot less technical proficiency than the other lifts and OHP is similar. From personal experience as someone who can be quite clumsy, I've injured myself once doing deadlifts, across thousands of reps. It also wasn't a serious injury and I was back deadlifting within a week or two. I've also never managed to drop an OHP on my head. Despite nearly passing out a few times while doing them (just a side effect of poor bracing when you're really pushing it), most people fail way before it's directly overhead and when it's with a barbell it's going to be very hard for it to slip out of your hands or anything like that.


    The trainers at the gym I'm at are quite lazy about pitching, which suits me. Some definitely are quite pushy and fear monger. Probably as much a consequence of the nature of the industry as of the individual.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,666 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    not had a problem with the OHP , for me it either starts moving or it doesnt and gets easier after that if it does. its basically my favourite lift at the moment

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Cill94


    Injury rates for barbell strength training are lower than vast majority of other sports/activities, including running and basically any ball sport. People hurt their back just as often from random tasks as they do from lifting heavy.

    I've coached people who've been concerned about dropping the bar, but it realistically just isn't something that happens. It's a bit like driving; in theory you're just one hard turn of the wheel away from killing yourself, but you don't do it because you know it's dumb. Similarly, you're not going to just let go of a bar unless you decide to.

    I'd agree that standard of coaching in most gyms is pretty poor. Low barrier of entry to the fitness industry and a lack of firsthand training experience are to blame. Means you end up with a lot of people who just want their hobby to be their job but couldn't care less about providing a great service to people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I not up to speed on the Irish comp scene, but I'd assume you are referring to ECJJ/Darragh as the top club.

    Dropping an OHP is really unlikely. As mentioned above, its most likely to fail in the bottom.

    I get what you mean about the staff. But you suggestion of limiting staff to 3 people kinda misses the point of why they are employed. There are there for sales, not making your gym experience better. That said is a 24/7 access type and usually has only 0-2 staff on.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,543 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Any reason why they're lower? I would have thought the barbell would be the reason behind quite a few injuries.

    I was just ranting more than anything else. I'm at the gym before the open in the morning so my interactions with the staff are all but non-existent.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    Yes, no one was naming names but the numbers don't lie, by smoothcomp standings or whatever metric you want they're well out ahead. Fair play to them.

    I've never dropped a barbell either during overhead work either. The only acute injuries I've seen happen in a gym where strength training / conditioning was going on was a blown out Achilles, from someone jumping down from a box. It's not to say that they don't happen, but I literally can't count the amount of acute injuries I've seen on sports pitches or indoor sports... Dislocated knees, ligament injuries, broken bones, broken teeth, K.Os, cuts... Not to say people shouldn't do them, but I'd be more worried about injuring myself playing a game of soccer or cycling to work than I would doing a long block of barbell training.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I was just thinking of who are the top guys on the pro circuit. Who can I name etc. And just seems like I'm casually aware of far more guys from ECJJ. Chris Leddy, Sam McNally, Marcus Phelan, Ffion Davis etc.

    Although that sort of proves your point of being a magnet for upcoming talent. Ffion moved there as an established grappler etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,643 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    If you fail an OHP, the bar is going to go forward. Unless you have some weird hypermobile shoulders, or your elbow tendons randomly decide to snap or something else catastrophic.


    I spent the first year or so of barbell training not having a notion what I was doing and lifting like a moron and managed to stay mostly injury free. Had achey knees from bad tracking and a tired lower back the odd time, but that's it. Granted, I didn't get very strong, but looking back, I think it's sort of amazing how much I managed to train with a barbell and not mess myself up.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Cill94


    One of the main reasons is probably because it's such a controlled environment compared to other sports. I had a shoulder injury from rugby and lifting was the only thing I could do because I could adjust the load, exercise, tempo, etc. You don't get that option in any mainstream ball sports.

    The reason behind most injuries in any gym is people doing too much load, too soon. That can be done with any kind of resistance whether it's machines, barbells, dumbbells, etc. I've actually seen the most injuries happen with bodyweight exercises, as it's much harder to adjust the difficulty, so people just 'give it a go' and wreck themselves. Muscle ups probably best example of this I've seen but happens with things like push-ups and pull-ups too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,666 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    at least you can learn from most of those, its the chronic ones that have built up over time like shoulder issues so maybe someone that has been lifting for 20 or more years having less bobility then when they started

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    I run marathons.

    I get just a tad irked when Joe Boggs states that he/she "ran" a marathon in 5-6 hours. That ain't running- that's just shuffling around- anyone can do that. Grand- you get a pass the first time and fair play and all that etc etc but as far as I am concerned why God's name would you back a second or third time just to come home in the same time i.e. 5-6 hours. Whatever happened to improving and then banging on that you are a "multiple marathon runner" taking Strava pictures en route...Jesus wept. I don't get it- well I do really but I think it is bollocks. You should push yourself to constantly improve. Otherwise you are just a Kudos whore.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Cill94


    They might. Personally my shoulder is healthier and more mobile now than ever before. I'm sure I'll have plenty of nagging little pains in various joints by the time I'm 50, but it will have been worth it for all the benefits of training. Plenty of people who have those pains but no fitness to show for it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    A gym near me has the following tag line:

    "A Corporate Look With A Real Gym Feel"

    What the fook does that mean? What the fook does a "corporate look" look like and why the fook would you want that "look"? What is it anyway...lads in suits hitting the free weights?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Cill94


    Cleanliness and 'sleek' (more like sterile in my opinion) presentation of a commercial gym, with the friendly environment of a small gym maybe?

    My ideal lifting space is a garage so I'm not exactly in touch with the vibe they're trying to create.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,643 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    "Yeah I ran a marathon too - the mini marathon"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Here is a better tagline

    "A real gym without the corporate speak bullshit"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Patsy167


    I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. There is any number of reasons why people exercise and compete in races and many of these are completely unrelated to performance and improving times. Same thing in gyms, you'll often see people turning up for years and seemingly making no progress on the outside but you've no idea what their motivation for going is or their goals.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    My unpopular opinion is this.

    There is nothing terribly wrong with a plateau in your training if you manage to reach a reasonable level of fitness. Especially as the years move on. I appreciate boredom may set in but I think the constant need for progress actually puts some people off.

    Off course making progress in your training is great but sometimes I feel that training for longevity is overlooked.

    I'm early 50s do a bit of lifting and met con training 3 times a week. At this stage I want to be able to train consistently for the next 10 15 years, further progress would be nice and i do try to improve, but is there anything wrong with the message "keep doing what you're doing" it's a lot better than nothing, or giving up because the gains aren't coming.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Oh I agree that everyone has there own personal story and at least they are out there doing it but I think it's the more banging on about it. Go do it fine in 3 hours or 7 hours but banging on about it like you have achieved some historic milestone for mankind is a bit much. As I said the first time a complete free pass to be as much of a nausbag as you want but 2,3, or 4th time- Jesus enough already- it reeks of pure attention seeking. They are not even doing it for themselves at that stage but just pure attention seeking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    "Oh I am overweight because I gave birth recently" with the definition of "recent" ranging up to 10 years

    No, you are overweight because you consumed more calories than your body required and still doing so or at least maintaining. Put simply, you eat too much.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    I would say strength training (lifting) is essential for every sport. In fact everyone should do it to some extent. 100% guilty here of not doing enough cough none cough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Same as the weight loss industry. It's all about calorie deficit but you gotta attach some bells and whistles to get away with the latest weight loss fad.

    Option 1- maintain a slight calorie deficit and loss weight gradually over time

    Option 2 - maintain a significant calorie deficit and lose weight very quickly while taking some snake oil, and pay €100 per month

    Option 2 is very popular.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭Stone Deaf 4evr


    The reason Weightwatchers / Slimming world are so popular, and to be fair - yield results for folk, is they dumb down the whole calorie thing into a simple format.

    mars bar - 150 calories or 3 points. you only get 15 points a day, so choose wisely.

    the whole reason they work is because of calorie intake management. Which brings me to the upshot, is that there badly needs to be a standardised way of indicating calories. My own personal gripe is with the likes of Muller yogurt - only 90 calories, and then you squint and see that its per 100g, but the yogurt is measured in millilitres. and the pack is 140ml, so out with the calculator / conversion tables. And dont get me started on tsp / tblsp - is the spoon heaped / flat - there is no spoon?

    Or f@cking frozen food - calories per 100g (cooked). great, now I've to guess what a frozen thing will weigh after cooking and will either end up eating less than I could have, or potentially wasting cooked food if I'm being very strict with my cals.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    You shouldnt be eating that rubbish anyway..😉

    It's like the trick supermarkets play. For example say, pack of 10 oranges €3.00 and it says "per pack" in small writing but loose oranges are €1.00 per kilo so it become pretty much impossible to work out which is better value.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭Patsy167


    Calorie labeling on food packaging needs lots of work. The portion sizes shown are also very misleading. Bought a fairly normal sized bag of Propercorn recently and it had "90 calories" flashed across the front of it, only realized afterwards that it was referring to one-third of the bag. Breakfast cereal portion sizes are also comical - 15 servings in a small box?! Appreciate that I should have been paying more attention but it feels sneaky!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,601 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I get your point, but it's all relative really. Walking a marathon is probably 7+ hours. If we say the 5-6ers are not running they are jogging, then we should probably apply that to 4hrs group too. I bet there would be quite a few pissed off on the ART forum is they were told their times weren't good enough for running.

    5-6 hours might sound pathetic to you, but I your times sound pathetic to a international cailibre runner. And so on. If you take anything to a high level, and keep going, age will eventually catch up on you. Sometimes getting better is no longer an option, but people still enjoy it. If somebody is able to set PBs at 50, it's probably because they had no performance at 30

    It's a weird one. But I'd assume it means more professional branding and colour scheme rather than the garish colour of the main globogym brands



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    I admire anyone who does a marathon, be it 3 hours or 6. It takes commitment and training.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,666 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Running a Marathon is an achievement, but so is running a 10K, my question is for large numbers of marathon hobbyists, is it worth it ? I get the idea that the bigger the challenge the bigger the motivation but thats basically down to telling yourself a story to get something done, there appear to be a lot of downsides to marathon running



    ripped off the net with no consideration to its truthiness

    • Debilitating osteoarthritis . . . at a young age
    • Permanent scarring of the heart muscle
    • A weakening of the thyroid and adrenal glands
    • Tendonitis and other repetitive strain injuries
    • Recurrent upper respiratory infections
    • Permanently damaged feet (my chiropractor says long-distance runners have some of the worst feet he’s ever seen)
    • Increased oxidative damage (free radical production)
    • Decreased fat metabolism
    • Susceptibility to injury
    • Loss of bone density
    • Depletion of lean muscle tissue
    • Hormone imbalances that are difficult to rectify (women)
    • High refined carbohydrate intake promotes a dangerous level of continuous systemic inflammation.


    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,643 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    I'd take that list with a pinch of salt tbh. Running isn't inherently bad, but running a marathon is taking it to the extreme. Take any physical pursuit to the extreme and it will eventually take its toll on the body.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26 Investigative reports


    Eat proportionately more carbs than calories.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 433 ✭✭GoogleBot




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 3,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭Black Sheep


    Sensing a trend here, this is not dissimilar to the argument that you advanced lately about lifting for strength goals past novice, or indeed the thing about sub 10% bodyfat levels.

    There's hard work and an element of (manageable) risk in any activity beyond the beginner stage. Can't imagine there is much sense of achievement in jumping from one program or sport to another whenever it becomes genuinely challenging - may explain why people are prepared to shed a bit of blood, sweat and tears in their training sometimes.

    Also, sorry, pet hate here, but why throw up some stuff from the internet if you have no understanding of whether it might be valid or not?



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