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Revoking of SACF rifles & New Legislation (thread banned users in first post)

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    jb88 - This whole drama will be brought back in the new year,

    What will be brought back next year? The proposed ban? Did you not do a "vicotry lap" a few weeks back with the claim its "dead"?

    jb88 (23/09/2021) - Its not on the cards, not happening, those on the justice committee no longer looking at this.

    And if you want to thank anyone, thank 3 people including myself, but really thank the other two, I just turned up and shot.

    This issue is dead right now with the govt, not going ahead despite some peoples agendas.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭ BSA International


    I have submitted my thoughts to relevant places not that I think it'll makes a blind bit of difference in this case. Heard a whisper it's not up for "discussion" ......... (& yes I took it with a lb of salt 🧂😋)


    Reading your reply above seems your big hurrah was a bit premature. Never, never believe a politican 😉



  • Registered Users Posts: 37,136 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    So not dead then?



  • Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Just a thought that came to mind, if Frances Fitzgerald planned to outright ban CF SA in 2015, why didn't she just ban the future licensing of these rifles? Seems a little bit stupid when you could just revoke all licenses issued and ban licensing them again. I know politicians aren't exactly known for their high IQs, but surely one of her advisors would have been semi competent enough to point this out.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    She couldn't have revoked all existing licenses in the form of a ban as that would have led to ompensation claims. She initially said there would be no compensation, but after saying this things went "quiet" and her department later walked that back presumably after someone told her that the revocation of licenses, hence property, is something that would require compensation.


    As for why she didn't ban new ones, I honestly don't know. The pistol ban of 2009 came about in the exact same way and that is done under a change to the act, but also an SI, which the Minister could have done fairly quickly. Perhaps she was intending to draft legislation, but never got around to it.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭ yubabill


    Here is Eugene Stoner father of the AR15 / M16 in his own words describing how he was a hobby shooter on the range, shooting a prototype self loading rifle he made for fun, when an executive from soon- to- be- formed ArmaLite asked him to join the company and design the AR10 which became the AR15 at the hands of John Sullivan.

    so a civilian designed the AR while hobby shooting




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,133 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    She couldn't have revoked all existing licenses in the form of a ban as that would have led to ompensation claims. She initially said there would be no compensation, but after saying this things went "quiet" and her department later walked that back presumably after someone told her that the revocation of licenses, hence property, is something that would require compensation.

    Remember if you go back to the 2014 paper,they were basing and still do this claim of no compensation on [1]Two high court judges comments in firearms cases about licensing being a privilege,but they NEVER mentioned anything about compensation and [2] A UK academics law paper, that had zero bearing on UK Law, whatsoever in relation to the Hungerford/Dunblane compensation cases and [3] If this is/was challenged in the HC it creates precedent law in Ireland which could have all sorts of knock-on effects in relation to all sorts of licensed items,goods and professions.However, they will no doubt quote the case of the Taxi drivers Vs the minister for state in 2000 who tried to sue for loss of earnings as their precedent, be rather shaky ground according to some legal heads.


    As for why she didn't ban new ones, I honestly don't know. The pistol ban of 2009 came about in the exact same way and that is done under a change to the act, but also an SI, which the Minister could have done fairly quickly. Perhaps she was intending to draft legislation, but never got around to it.

    It does seem odd alright, why leave it this long on the finger? It does give credence to the idea of a tipping point number of new imports and licenses issued? Maybe they were expecting post the DC cases and the Dail inquiry a surge like with the handguns that never emerged? Or that there was so much dirt coming up about AGS at the time that she was too busy doing a CYA after the burnings in the DC's and Dail inquiry, that she was being political and trying to be all things to all people?As the whole thing does sound like future music for someone else to deal with? Or that this is Browne trying to make a political name for himself by trying for some low hanging fruit? We can only speculate.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    But if the current minister can decide to revoke all licenses issued post 15th September 2015, despite there being no mention of such a date in any current firearms legislation, then surely Fitzgerald could have just picked a random date and leave 1 CFSA licensed. My point is what makes the 15th of September date so important? It has no legal basis, but is the dividing line between compensation and no compensation. What would stop the minister revoking all CFSA licenses issued post the 1972 "temporary" custody order, or the 2008 pistol cut off date? Surely there's more of a legal basis for those dates? I guess I'm just struggling to wrap my head around why something a minister thought 6 years ago has such an impact on whether compensation is given or not.

    Thank God for that anyway, probably would have been a bit of an embarrassment for her, being forced down from such a hard line stance to settle for leaving so many scary fully semi automatic rifles out there.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    The 15th September 2015 was the date the Minister stood in the Dáil and announced her intention to prohibit the licensing of any more SACF rifles. Like with the pistol ban the then Minister made the same statement on 18th November 2008, but the legislation to impose such a banwas not drafted until June 2009 and signed into law in July 2009. The legilsation is then retrospectively applied back to the date the statement of intent was announced in the Dáil.

    I'm not a legal expert but from a cursory check this is legal but only in some forms of legislation. It does not apply to criminal matters which is why I also struggled to understand its legality as some firearm laws are contained within criminal justice acts, however from what I've read its only an issue if it makes something that was legal illegal causing someone who was not guilty of an offence "yesterday" to be guilty of an offence today.

    In other words with no statement made and no law to prohibit owning/possessing/licensing a SACF rifle prior to September 2015 the law cannot be introduced to make what was legal, illegal prior to that date. Hence the reason a date is set.

    I said either in this thread or another that the pistol ban was annunced, drafted, signed into law within 8 months. Its been over 6 years and only the first draft is done (apparently from last year) so I think people would have a strong-ish case to appeal the severe length of time between the statement of intent and the introduction of legislation (which still hasn't come) and the posible revocation of license in that time period.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Ah ok, thanks for clarifying that Cass. I believe the proposed ban is part of a criminal justice act, so I'll be interesting to see if the cut off date holds up.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    So was the pistol ban, but it was also supported by an SI (337/2009). Its why I wondered about the pistol ban, but perhaps because the section regarding pistols, although contained within the criminal justice act, was not/does not criminalise the act after the fact it is legal. I mean the DoJ have enough "experts" to not allow an illegal aspect be put into legislation.

    Time will tell.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    From replies gotten, and comparing to others, the wording used in all correspondence is "its my itent to move forward with prohibiting the licensing of semi-auto centrefire firearms".

    So even with the formation, or rather planned formation, it seems he has the bit between his teeth and is charging on with the proposed ban.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Who'd have thought certain individual's secretive meetings wouldn't amount to much. Almost as if they were bullsh*tting us since the start for some unknown motivation. Who knows, maybe he'll get the Taoiseach or Michael D to intervene.



  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭ jb88


    Those who have the most to lose, me and a few others. Made ourselves aware of the facts, identified the players and sent submissions.

    The minister for state isnt a player. He doesnt have the power or this would have been done already and a ban would be in place. He has had to slowly backtrack out of his statements to now establishing some think tank with no powers, see where all of this is going....



  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭ jb88


    I live in the real world, in this country rules are just guidelines, you dont get the blessing from someone its dead in the water. No consensus, no decision made. Id show you the proof but you still wouldnt believe me.


    There is a hierarchy to everything in this country and if you dont tip the hat to the right people nothing gets done.

    Rules, when has that ever mattered to the Govt in Ireland . Thats what they write down. Its not what happens



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    jb88 - I live in the real world,

    That is questionable at best. Between the self agrandizing, cryptic, baseless and out right wrong information (or lack thereof) you have posted over the last two months, the real world is not something I associate with you.

    jb88 - in this country rules are just guidelines

    So the firearm acts are just a set of "guidelines? You're not with it at all, you really aren't. That isnot an attack on your character, but if you truly believe that rules (Definition: A set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct or procedure within a particular area of activity) are only guidelines you're on the wrong path.

    jb88 - , you dont get the blessing from someone its dead in the water.

    So backtracking on your claim you and two others have "saved the sport"?

    jb88 - No consensus, no decision made.

    Nonsensical jibberish.

    jb88 -  Id show you the proof but you still wouldnt believe me.

    How would you know? You've yet to provide a scintilla of "proof". Other than your cryptc ramblings about secret meetings and back room deals, you have provided nothing even resembling proof. If you mean word of mouth, its not worth the paper its written on.

    I spoke before, when you made your claim that you've single handedly saved these firearms and the sport, that if true show us and you'll receive the gratitude and adoration you seek, especially from me.

    jb88 - There is a hierarchy to everything in this country and if you dont tip the hat to the right people nothing gets done.

    So you are now claiming that you and these other two have done some back room meeting/deal without consulting or informing anyone else. The very thing you've spoken so ardently against since the start of crap show?

    jb88 - Rules, when has that ever mattered to the Govt in Ireland . Thats what they write down. Its not what happens


    The conspiracy theory forum is that way --------------------->


    Frankly, from my own perspective and based on what you've written and failed to do, I view you as the very threat you have spoken about previously. I just hope that anyone of authority that you have made contact with can see that and that the damage you do is negligible.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭ jb88


    quick to criticize. I think its because myself and a couple of other enlightened individuals are doing something to make a difference and stop this issue of a ban from happening.

    Now do your bit and lobby the various stakeholders and stop criticizing me at every turn for even telling you whats happening.

    Should have known better than to put info on this forum



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,133 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    You and your group don't represent anyone here either.We have no idea who you are your group is, what you repersent,or have any public information about you So you have no mandate either to do anything on this matter until you start declaring some information and stop with your Walting.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Yep, I am given your history of lies, half truths, exaggerations and attacking anyone that "dares" ask you to explain yourself.


    You said 6 to 7 weeks ago this issue is dead. Your words, verbatim. Now you say you and others are working to stop it.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    MODERATOR WARNING.

    Tell you what, you were warned before about making false/baseless claims without backing them up or providing evidence, not to mention attacking this forum and its memebrs. You have failed to heed them so therefore I take your continued posting as nothing more than trolling.

    Contune to do this and you'll receive a thread ban. Continue after that and its a forum ban.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,136 ✭✭✭✭ Mellor


    I put massive faith in evidence. Much more so that words. Anyone can say anything. But evidence is all that matter.

    So that basis, can I see the proff you referred to above. If it’s legit, you’ll have my full support, as a person indirectly impact by the changes (if they happen).



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,133 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Getting a vibration on my web that there might be some movement on this before Dail recess for Christmas...Which is the usual time to dump a steaming package of warm&brown on our laps it seems. Some local Limerick politico and ex Garda waffling on about pocket and cheapo hunting knives being sold in Limerick in Lidil,[and ignoring the fact that you can get a better selection of more efficient killing knives in any Euro shop.]

    As well as Min Browne being concerned about "Zombie knives" which apparently because of their "saw action blades can cause extremely serious injuries or death if they are pulled out of a person!"....Pass the puke bucket please! I need to vomit from the overload of hyperbole in this Limerick Post article and ignorance displayed by both the minister and this ex Garda, Limerick mayor and opportunistic politician on knives.

    Anyhow, it seems that if they want to introduce legislation b4 Xmas ,it might mean that this hidden bit of tack on legislation regarding semi-auto sporting rifles might be moved with it.Seeing that no one opposed this bills second reading in the Summer,this could be pushed onwards with no objections. Time to give any pro-gun politicans you might know a rattle to oppose this bill until this tack on is discussed properly.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,060 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    I'm no doctor however I'd imagine one would have bigger problems on their hands if the typical knife with a saw back blade was deep enough that the saw back part was making contact!

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭ ntipptop


    well, i just had my m1 carbine license renewed,,

    Quick phonecall from the chief supt and job done :):)

    Happy days,,,,,,, for now!!!!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    No reason it wouldn't be. There is no law prohibiting them, yet.

    Was your original license issued prior to Sept. 2015? If so it'll continue to be renewed. If not then you may find problems when legislation is eventually passed.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,133 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    TBH, I'd be more worried by getting hit by a cheapo 12 in Euro store kitchen knife in a stabbing incident than being done by some oddly shaped sharpened bit of metal with neon green or fluorescent orange paracord wrapped handle with the words "Zombie knife" or the like written on the blade,than by a combat or hunting knife on our streets.🙄

    Hey, every good combat knife has to have a sawback... Ever since Rambo used one that is... Sykes /Fairbairn or Rex Applegate and KA BAR's USMC knife design had no idea what with their commando knife of WW2 fame. Sawbacked knives are where it's at...🙄🙄

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭ jb88


    Well everyone is so quick to dispute me. well Griz show me the facts here, proof, evidence that this exists, "this legislation isnt going before the govt" ive had assurances from two TD's that nothing is happening on this.

    What proof Griz have you?

    You know the reasons why it wont go ahead, because then the govt have to include setting up an independent body to oversee firearms legislation, and yet another independent appeals body to make sure thats all working. Lots more money to be wasted by the state, when the Gardai have control of this already.

    If you think for a second the Gardai will give up this power then you have another bigger problem.

    But watch this space.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    MODERATOR NOTE

    Absolutely no way you will disappear without answering questions, then reappear demanding answers to the exact same questions that were asked of you.

    You have been warned before about this behaviour and how it is low level trolling. As such you are now thread banned.

    That means you are no longer welcome to post on this thread. Any attempt to do so will result in infraction, post deletion, and a forum ban.

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