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The Mess - Military Forum Off Topic Thread!

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,546 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Congratulations on the promotion Manic, well earned I'm sure.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Dohvolle wrote: »
    Congrats Sir, but why is a frenchman pinning your O-5 oakleaf?
    I still remember when you were just a butterbar, it doesn't seem like that long ago.

    I was working in the French division HQ when the federal recognition of the rank came in. The Frenchman is the division commander.

    Chap on my Facebook page was an NCO for my recruit camp in Aiken barracks back in 98. That really goes back a whiles... I guess they did a good job.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,844 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    Congrats Manic


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I see Boris is confirming that they are going for a new Royal Yacht...
    https://news.sky.com/story/uk-to-build-200m-national-flagship-to-promote-british-industry-abroad-12320242
    I truly don’t get the fetish some in the U.K. have for it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,603 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    They're claiming it's a "flagship " for promoting Britain .. the queen has said previously that she doesn't want a new royal yacht ...
    Considering the caliber of private super yachts out there it'd have to be seriously classy to impress and wow around the world .
    Seems a strange use of 2 or 3 hundred million quid , plus operating costs ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Markcheese wrote: »
    They're claiming it's a "flagship " for promoting Britain .. the queen has said previously that she doesn't want a new royal yacht ...
    Considering the caliber of private super yachts out there it'd have to be seriously classy to impress and wow around the world .
    Seems a strange use of 2 or 3 hundred million quid , plus operating costs ...

    It’s been a fetish for tenements of the Torys and their voters since the last one was decommissioned under Blair, tied into their fantasies around Brexit. As you say the Queen doesn’t want it, and has refused them permission to name it after Philip. It’s a gimmick, no more than Boris banging on about building tunnels to Ireland, though with the Tories it might be interesting to keep an eye on who gets the contract for her and what their connections to the Tory party might be...


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I see the Iranians lost one of their AOR’s today to fire, wonder if it’s incompetence or something else, given their record over the last few years it could be either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,424 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Two bits of miscellaneous.

    Brigadier General Maureen O'Brien, former deputy and acting force commander of UN forces in the Golan, has been promoted to Major General, the highest rank achieved by a female officer of the DF to date and has been appointed deputy military advisor to the UN office of peace operations in New York. BZ!

    Also the most recent DF podcast is an hour long interview with Minister Coveney, few interesting policy bits in it as well as much about the Commission on Defence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Seems the Iranians also had an oil refinery fire today...


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Dohvolle wrote: »
    Most unlucky.
    Indeed.
    In other news I see the U.K. has managed to get yet another lemon in the Ajax vehicle, with over 5 billion spent for vehicles that can’t go over 20mph and needs the crews to wear ear protection and change out after 90 minutes, with vibration so bad the main gun can’t fire on the move...


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    From the team that brought you the SA-80........ its AJAX.

    Go big or go home.:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    From the team that brought you the SA-80........ its AJAX.

    Go big or go home.:D

    All for the low price of 5 billion and coming up on 10+ years of work, promise to actually be ready in another 10 or so years and a few more billion...


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Dohvolle wrote: »
    I'm reminded of the development of the Bradley Armoured Fighting Vehicle in the 70s.
    For those of you unfamiliar, watch "The Pentagon Wars". The Problem the UK always faces though is the product must be built in the UK, regardless of their technical ability to actually manufacture what is required.
    There were many near identical types already available off the shelf around the world, but they had to re-invent the wheel. Even the vehicle it is based on, ASCOD! Meanwhile the German Puma is demonstrating amazing availability.

    Hell for this one they could have used the off the shelf option of CV 90 from BAE but no instead they went with this turd...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    This chap here runs a firearms channel, is looking for input on the Gustaf SMG in Irish service.

    https://twitter.com/historicfirearm/status/1418018048628379652



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,584 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    Post edited by Esel on

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    So the USN is charging a sailor for arson for the Bonhomme Richard fire…

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/29/politics/uss-bonhomme-richard-sailor-charged/index.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,546 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    20 years in Leavenworth could be quite unpleasant I imagine.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They better have the right fella because his name is out there in public now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Looks like a major realignment for the RAN with reports that the French deal is to be scrapped and a new SSN fleet will be developed with support from the US and U.K….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,424 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The French are incandescent of course, but it'll probably be better for them in the end as they'll get compensation from Australia and also new customers, without too much difficulty, for the boats.

    The irony is, of course, that the Australian spec Barracudas that have been cancelled, were diesel-electrified variants of what was originally a nuclear powered design. The big losers will be the 400 jobs in NG South Australia who were going to build the hulls locally.

    And I can't imagine it will be too efficient for Australia to effectively be operating leased nuclear boats from the US, where all the big maintenance will have to be done in North America.

    In fact thinking about it, would it not have made more sense for Australia to continue with the acquisition of the DE boats and provide a couple of bases in the north of the Country for US attack subs, as they do in places like Japan and the Philippines?

    PS, time for Irish naval submarine operations to begin, only 1 billion for the surplus DE variants? 😁



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Nah, the French don’t actually have any parts made, they were still working out how to make a SSN into a SSK, so nothing is left over, just a lot of design hours that someone is going to have to pay for. As for Australia, they are staying with domestic build so those jobs will still be there, at some point, but my god it’s going to be expensive as hell and there’s no way they get the 12 they were going with for the French order, 8 would be the highest I’d imagine and forget schedules, these hulls are going to be late.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,424 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I don't think the politics of foisting a nuclear engineering facility on a Country with no history of nuclear energy or weapons, has been thought through, especially considering that the Osborne Navy Yard is in the middle of feckin Adelaide! Morrisson has to get that through Parliament before we even talk about the expense.

    And you're absolutely right, it will be as expensive as hell, but I don't think anyone even has a clue quite how much. For the price of 8 DEs they *MIGHT* get 3 Astute class, or 2 Virginia class, but the economies of scale are against them too, because they have no existing facilities to build the hull size, or technology, or nuclear power train and no workforce experience. And they want to start all that from scratch on the far side of the damn World.

    The stats say that the Aussie defence budget is 35 billion US dollars. Quite conceivably, the peak of the programme, maybe one ship in trials, one in fit-out and one building, could be burning through 5 billion of that all on its own.

    Scott Morisson is actually a massive moron. That programme will kill Governments before it kills any Chinese ships.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    And now France has pulled its ambassadors from both the US and Australia over this… Should have been handled far better.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Would 8xDE have the same military capability as 3x Nukes, though? Surely that’s the important question. If the DEs cannot perform the primary mission, for example not around Australian coastal waters, then they would be a waste of money no matter how cheap they are in comparison.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,603 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I think I read somewhere that the diesel electrics were fine for coastal defence around australia itself , ( as the Colin's class have proved)

    But as situations have changed , and china has become the big threat. ( Rather than indonesia ) , then the Aussies feel the need to be able to go much further afield .. in conjunction with their best buds the Brits and the Yanks. .

    Incidentally ,I get why the Americans are rubbing off the Chinese ,and want a serious position in Asia/ pacific -they are THE World power ect , for the Aussies it's their home turf so to speak - but why the UK ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Given the current and older generation subs got up to plenty of long range operations (even those that are still classified), SSKs would be more than capable of surrounding operations in Australian waters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    There’s a lot of different factors going on, the Australian justification over costs is BS, the SSNs will easily blow through what was budgeted for the SSKs. As to the UKs involvement, plenty of different options, it gets them another base in the region, it somehow gets connected to their “global Britain” shite (and gets one over on the French), and they hope gets some industrial crossover I’d bet.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I agree with you as far as the statement goes. There are two concerns.

    1) Australia is a long coastline. To get quickly from one end of Australia to the other is more feasible with a nuclear boat than a diesel. For the same level of coverage, you need more diesels. Let's say that the cost about equals out. Which brings us to....

    2) Australia's area of maritime interest is far beyond Australian waters, the island is on the end of a transoceanic supply line. Events which are going to have a significant influence on Australia's overall security situation are happening a couple thousand miles from Darwin. Considering the threats to Australia itself, Australian coastal security seems to be capable of being handled reasonably well by patrol boats, cutters and the occasional frigate, you don't need SSKs for the job. Who's going to invade? Papua New Guinea's Amphibious Task Force? China, skipping over closer, more realistic targets? A single nuke which can operate well in the Indian or Pacific, or S. China Sea is probably going to be of more benefit to Australia than three or four diesels which can't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The strategic mobility of a SSN has always been the dominate selling point for them no question, as you say whether covering the Australian coastline or ocean operations it will always be able to respond faster than an SSK. However that does come with a hell of a price tag, one that I’m not sure the Australian government has thought through entirely. Even if they manage to avoid the end of life costs of what to do with the reactor the lifetime costs of nukes are massive compared to conventional boats, add in there are only a couple of producers of the reactors (and the US is always going to come first). There is also the numbers game, with fewer SSNs the ability for Australia to lose one is far less than when they planned to have 12 SSKs, even leaving aside any combat damage, we’ve seen the US lose one sub to fire, the French having to do a cut and shut due to fire damage to a SSN, and just recently the USN are now down a Seawolf after it hit “something”. The smaller the unit numbers the more “eggs in one basket” situation.

    Also of course there’s the manpower issue, something which the RAN has had issues with in the past with the Collins, but now they have to add in nuclear qualified engineers. I wonder with some RN personnel be changing service( hitting them?), will they be able to sustain what in the US and U.K. navies are high end jobs?

    Lastly of course is how long the Collins will now have to stay in service, I saw some comments from an Australian minister that it might be the 2050s, that’s a long time for any sub and will increase risks.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The Russians have just burned a Corvette in the dock in St. Petersburg, the Provornyy:

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1471926433710813188

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_corvette_Provornyy



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    At least it wasn't a billion dollar helo carrier/amphib.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,021 ✭✭✭sparky42


    True, but you know America always has to be bigger than everyone else…



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Anyone interested in a pub session evening of 3rd Jan in central Dublin?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Count me in MM! Lookin forward to it! Happy New year all....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,584 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    Are Walts welcome?

    Not your ornery onager



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Why not?

    3rd January, 20:30, The Long Hall

    Shouldn't be too hard to find me. (If you've seen "the Chieftain" youtube channel, at least)



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Anyone know these lads? They are competing in Fort Benning this week.

    Standings after Day 1.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,603 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    What are the events ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,546 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Full details (It's a five-day event, by the way, ending Friday).

    The DF Cavalry Corps page is keeping track.

    https://www.facebook.com/DefenceForcesCavalryCorps



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    You may find this sub-thread amusing...

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568896/#Comment_121568896

    I think he's beyond help.



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