Heavyweight Boxing

squinn2912 · 14-10-2021 10:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021435#Comment_118021435

Hahaha! That’s cold! Ah he made a bollox of himself but at least it’s said now. Fury’s twitter operator retweeted it so all good

walshb · 14-10-2021 10:26pm

Whether he wrote the statement or not is irrelevant. He signed off and approved it. I’ll give him a pass right after the fight. He was clearly dazed, hurt, stressed, concussed and confused. Mind all over the place. Time and reflection kicking in now.

squinn2912 · 14-10-2021 10:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021466#Comment_118021466

Yea that’s where my head is at on it. Resting and doc visits I’m sure on Sunday maybe monday too. Tuesday chilling with family and wednesday maybe a meeting with advisors who would have put him right.

I always feel so sorry for a knocked out HW in a big fight. Like Foreman Ali, the sight of a mountain crumbling and wobbling out of the ring is the saddest sight in sport. Even lower down the order I felt sorry for Price and Dubois for instance. As much as it’s exciting to see the KO I was kinda glad for aj looking back that he made the bell.

Pussyhands · 14-10-2021 10:36pm

Just watched the fight again. It was over rated. Morning after I heard them call it one of the all time classics.

Entertaining enough but quality was severely lacking. Wilder is just so one dimensional. He was gassed from at least round 6. He has 0 defence at the best of times.

2nd half of the fight was just childs play. For Wilder to have the tank completely empty by round 6 looks terrible. All he has is a haymaker which he just spams like a video game.

Fury's defence not as good as it was, getting hit far more often now.

From round 6 it was quite a boring fight and even the fans in the arena were muted.

squinn2912 · 15-10-2021 7:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021516#Comment_118021516

Jaysus you’re hard to please. There are points during the Bowe Holyfield fights where they’re just slugging and there aren’t much tactics. Ali Frazier III saw a great big one fail to put away a great little one who couldn’t see. Was Lewis Holyfield especially exciting... either time? It was a dramatic fight. That’s entertainment. Then we saw a guy who was well beaten keep coming back and standing firm in an admirable way. Fury had a bit of an off night but the fight shows just how far ahead of Wilder he is so we got the answer. I get your point it was full of mistakes and really showed wilder up but I’m more than glad I got up!

walshb · 15-10-2021 8:07am

There was nothing in Bowe-Holyfield 1 remotely boring or not exciting. It was 36 minutes of enjoyment, skill, heart and ebb and flow.

fights 2 and 3, yes, didn’t match fight 1.

Mantis Toboggan · 15-10-2021 8:23am

I see David Haye has called out Fury 😏

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/boxing/7746442/david-haye-tyson-fury-boxing-fight/

walshb · 15-10-2021 8:31am

David Haye can't shake the Bellew losses.......needs redemption and the limelight for his ego.

squinn2912 · 15-10-2021 8:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022193#Comment_118022193

Well now I didn’t call them boring. My point is that if you strip back some of even the classics you can find faults in technique, tactics etc.

walshb · 15-10-2021 8:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022268#Comment_118022268

I realize you didn't call them boring, hence my inclusion of the exciting bit...

Just rating Bowe-Holyfied 1: 10/10 for me

Wilder-Fury III: 7/10....

Clear gulf in overall class/skill/excitement and fight!!!!

Wilder was in survival mode for large parts the fight....

AckwelFoley · 15-10-2021 8:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022258#Comment_118022258

I'd go back further to the Wladimir K loss. I remember watching the fight and thinking he had absolutely no answers to what he was up against which surprised me a bit.

I think it probably got into his head.

walshb · 15-10-2021 9:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022339#Comment_118022339

Haye lost any big fight he was in......I'll include the Bellew fights as kind of big.....

Yes, beat Ruiz (possibly weakest HW champion in history) and Valueev, but other than this he failed to really impress.

Pussyhands · 15-10-2021 9:51am

I find it crazy to think the first Haye/Bellew fight is 4 and a half years ago!

yourdeadwright · 15-10-2021 10:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118020769#Comment_118020769

Tucker is down as 6'3 every where ? he was 221lbs when he fought Mike

AJ is 6'6 and for instance when he fought Wlad was 250lbs even really slimmed down for Usyk was 240lbs

There's a big difference plus he is far better than Tucker

yourdeadwright · 15-10-2021 10:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021516#Comment_118021516

I wouldn't judge Fury defence to much on Saturday ,

Even forget about he 18 months years out of the ring & had a troubled camp forget about all that,

The game plan was kind of to get hit , Sounds mad but if you think about it if you stay at range & try to be slick & move you don't tire Wilder out , you give him time to set & you give him the range he needs ,he will eventually nail you, Fury's team decided to bit down on the gum shield ,hold you hands up high & expect to get hit but in doing so closed the distance lean on him rough him up and tire him out,

Most of Wilder's best Ko's are ones they other guy doesn't see coming,

I really don't think its wise to try & beat Wilder in an eye pleasing fight, If AJ or Usyk fought Wilder from the outside chances are both would eventually go to sleep ,

His gas tank was only bad because he was constantly under pressure, First fight his gas was fine, Ortiz 1 his gas was fine even when hurt,

Fury's pressure destroyed him but to do so Fury was going to take some shots,

AckwelFoley · 15-10-2021 10:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022740#Comment_118022740

He was 6' 5 according to boxrec

walshb · 15-10-2021 10:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022740#Comment_118022740

Tucker is not 6’3..

he was easily 6 feet 5

and it’s not at all clear AJ is far better than Tucker, not that it matters a damn for AJ vs. Tyson

did you watch Tucker vs Tyson? Mike won clearly on points against a big and strong and awkward and durable Tucker, who came to spoil and survive. AJ not near as durable. AJ gets KTFO early.

amyway, let it go. No matter what is discussed with Tyson, you will try pick it apart. You’re debating lbs here and there, and then questioning inches here and there. You don’t rate him. That’s fine.

I just happen to think he decimates AJ every time.

and I bet the vast majority boxing fans would agree.

it’s plain as the nose on your face why Tyson decimates AJ every time, and why he is a horrible match for him

walshb · 15-10-2021 10:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022798#Comment_118022798

and easily looks it. Pretty much same height as Bowe/Lewis and AJ

yourdeadwright · 15-10-2021 11:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022798#Comment_118022798

Just seen that it has 6'5 ft , i didn't think he was 6'5 but that the aul memory for ye

Yes iv seen it ,Tucker was tough man no debate there,

walshb · 15-10-2021 11:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022985#Comment_118022985

He was very durable. I could be wrong, but Mike was first to beat him, and he wasn’t beaten until Lewis beat him 5-6 years later.

Tucker was past his best by then.

As to his 221 lbs weight in 1987. It was ripped solid. Look at his frame.

vs. Lewis he was 230+, and in shape as well.

Only 4 men took Tyson the distance up to the end 1989. Two of them were when Mike was only 19, and Mike won both fights well. Tillis and Green were easily 8 years older than the 19 year old Tyson, and if you watch both fights, no way in hell can AJ replicate what they did to go the distance. Tyson was on them all night, and fighting like a maniac. AJ would have been easily taken out

Smith in 1987 was a tough and durable and wily fighter, who only came to survive. And Mike won via shutout. Tucker the same, albeit a closer fight.

As you yourself say regularly, AJ is not a born fighter. He doesn't have that Fury type innate attitude and ability, and this is extremely damaging for him if he faced Tyson.

yourdeadwright · 15-10-2021 11:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022996#Comment_118022996

I just don't rate Mike & most (not all) of his opponents where pants ,I always think Mike is a WHAT IF fighter, Got beat by Douglas and then got himself locked up after that he was nothing special ,

I agree Mike likely knocks AJ out but it wouldn't surprise me if AJ beat him

eagle eye · 15-10-2021 12:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022740#Comment_118022740

James Smith was 6'4" and 233. Razor Ruddock was 228 then 238 at 6'3" in their two fights. Tubbs was 6'3" and 238.

walshb · 15-10-2021 12:55pm

The HWs in the 1980s and 1990s were pretty much same size as today...of course, today there are a few bigger...well, really only Fury...

Bowe and Lewis and a few others were 230+ fighters standing 6 feet 5 inches....

Many others around the 1980s and 1990s were same as the likes Parker and Whyte etc.....6 feet 2 and 3 and 4 and 220 + lbs....

It's actual talent and skills when you get 210 + lbs that is as important....of course, a great big one beats a great/good little one...

But from what I see, only Fury stands out as being real big and proven good....

Wilder is not real big. He is tall, but 220-230 lbs....he has a few inches on loads around. Big deal.

I don't want to hear about the likes of overweight fat boxers like Ruiz being bigger. They are not 'bigger' simply because they are fat. They are only 'heavier' because they are fat. And these type men existed in the 1980s and 1990s too

AJ for all his size at 245 lbs and 6 feet 5/6, just does not have the real intangibles to be considered anything great over the last 40 years....

This throwaway comment you hear about the sport being more modern now, and modern athletes are better....it is such a misnomer in relation to today vs 1980s and 1990s boxers. It really is...

Give me something more than modern athletes are more advanced......wtf does this even mean in relation to the 1990s vs. todays' boxers? What, they have access to smartphones, social media? What? Diet? What diet? Training techniques......what ones, exactly?

Take three prestigious weight divisions from the 1990s vs today

HW: Bowe/Lewis/Holyfield/Foreman vs Fury/Usyk/Wilder/AJ.....I am very sure the 1990s were better

Supermiddle: James Toney and Roy Jones vs Canelo and Plant....sorry, it's 1990s all day long here...

Welterweight: Shane Mosley/Tito Trinidad/Veron Forrest and Oscar vs Spence/Thurman/Crawford/Garcia....again, I have to think the 1990s

ebbsy · 15-10-2021 1:09pm

Anyone who suggests that a prime Mike Tyson would lose to any of the present guys must be puffing the magic dragon.

Mantis Toboggan · 15-10-2021 1:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118023501#Comment_118023501

Would depend if he was juiced up or not I suppose.

ebbsy · 15-10-2021 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118023736#Comment_118023736

He would have demolished them fairly quickly.

Fury might cause him trouble, but that's about it.

walshb · 15-10-2021 2:03pm

So, what? Prime Tyson mid to late 80s was juiced up, and this is why he was champion and winning and defending the belts 9 times? As opposed to say Fury, who was actually convicted of doping. and found to have a banned substance in his system

walshb · 15-10-2021 2:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118023814#Comment_118023814

Yes, but take him off the juice (that he was so clearly on 🤢), and how does he do?

ebbsy · 15-10-2021 2:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118023831#Comment_118023831

A pre-jail Tyson creams them all, apart from Fury who might give him some trouble.

AckwelFoley · 15-10-2021 2:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024040#Comment_118024040

Fury gets hit too much. If wilder hadn't a gas tank the size of a vespa scooter he could probably beat fury. But wilders conditioning is poor. He was hitting fury at the end of the fight and had no impact.

Prime Tyson hit hard...but he hit fast. His power and speed was what made him. When he got old, he still had the power bit less speed, so he had to rely more on his power and biting technique

yourdeadwright · 15-10-2021 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118023444#Comment_118023444

Fury , AJ & Wilder are all bigger by a inch or 2 here and there and 20lbs here and there, Wilder the closet in weight but he is very lean .

I think the 80's &90 guys where naturally smaller men just juiced up to there eye balls with extra muscle also why none had gas tank issues, Sure look at Holyfield's transformation its madness

Ye drugs are still there today but no where near the cocktail of stuff the lads where on in the 80's/90, Jerrell Miller level doping ,

Impossible exercise because unless you se them fight its impossible to know for sure,

walshb · 15-10-2021 5:01pm

Lewis and Bowe are bigger than Wilder, as is Foreman.

taller is not bigger. There is more to it

Lewis and Bowe, and throw in Golota are pretty much like AJ. Few lbs here and there…

it’s the 1990s, not the 1920s..

walshb · 15-10-2021 7:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024978#Comment_118024978

Ok, let’s here this better training and strategy bit..where’s the better diet bit from the 1990s fighters compared to today? What are today’s fighters eating and drinking that’s making them better boxers/fighters?

and the three weights I mentioned with the 90s vs today. Who you picking?

because apart from Fury, none the others are great in the 1990s. And I’d pick several to beat Fury.

I’d take Bowe Holyfield fight as far more skilled and everything else compared to anything from heavyweights today.

no idea what some you guys think happened between Bowe/Lewis and Holyfield to give us AJ/Wilder and Fury..

whatever you are seeing that shows them better is invisible to me..

normanoffside · 15-10-2021 9:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024978#Comment_118024978

I doubt Fury has a better diet than those in the 90's, even the 30's tbh

walshb · 15-10-2021 9:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118026128#Comment_118026128

I was thinking exact same thing!

iebamm2580 · 15-10-2021 11:38pm

Just watched back the fight earlier, fury would be an nightmare for anybody in any era, the way he hits then prods the face with the forearm and leans on opponents, it would tire anybody out, not many would beat him in a dog fight and his stamina and recovery powers especially from that first knock down are exceptional. He looked like he could do 15 rounds, amazing considering his shape.

squinn2912 · 16-10-2021 12:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118026780#Comment_118026780

His belief in his ability to win somehow, anyhow, is impressive. He was absolutely convinced that he was beating Wilder. I think it’s easier to have the extra push and stamina when you feel like that. He knew he was far superior and having that huge mental edge makes. amassive difference.

On the battles of the ages, it’s hard to really appreciate the current guys until they retire. In 5 years time we’ll know more about all of them. If Wilder were to fight Joshua who loses against Usyk and ko him then fight Usyk who became undisputed after a Fury meltdown and vacation of the belt and also ko him then both of their legacies would look very different. I’d love Ike to be around now.

walshb · 16-10-2021 7:41am

Do we have to wait till AJ and Wilder retire to appreciate them? Surely we have enough on them to assess them in an all time sense? Both very likely past their best now anyway..

Fury probably has 3/4 more fights left. And no real challenges apart from AJ and Usyk. I’d make him quite a warm favorite v Usyk, and a warm favorite against AJ.

Even if AJ were to beat/KO Fury, avenge Usyk, or Wilder to KO AJ/Usyk, pretty much they are who they are in an all time sense.

squinn2912 · 16-10-2021 9:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027134#Comment_118027134

Hahaha very good response!

Well ok, I think we will appreciate them better when the story is a bit more complete. Now here even you are professing Fury to be the HW of this generation 18 months ago you had a very different perception of him. We will be able to say things more fully when we know more or all of the stroy. All three of them (and many more) can still change our minds and a lot can still happen.

Take say Forman. If he’d retired after the Ali defeat then we’d look at him another way without the Moorer ko or even going 12 rounds with both Morrison and Holyfield (I think, points decisions?). Then he could wellllll have come out on the wrong side of the Ron Lyle scrap which really should have come up in our discussion about great fights gone by.

And... why would Fury have only 3/4 left? Irrespective of what he says he’s just 33 maybe 34 sure he could have double that amount of fights yet.

walshb · 16-10-2021 10:12am

Fury could have 10 fights left. 3/4 fights could take 3/4 years the way these lads operate.

squinn2912 · 16-10-2021 11:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027428#Comment_118027428

Yea that is true. He doesn’t seem too interested in fighting lower level lads now as inbetween fights as tune ups but I think that would be a good way for him to keep active and focussed

eagle eye · 16-10-2021 11:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027723#Comment_118027723

The last five fighters he faced doesn't suggest that.

He fought Pianeta, Seferi and Schwartz in that time. The serious fights were the Wilder trilogy and we'll give some credit for Wallin.

squinn2912 · 16-10-2021 1:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027787#Comment_118027787

Those fights happened 2 during the comeback so I wouldn’t take them so seriously they were more exhibitions than anything. Schwartz the same. Glorified spars. I think Wallin was meant to be similar and then the cut happened so we can judge him later maybe when we see what he does. Those fights got him back up to prime now he’s at that. I think he’s interested in the big ones but you never know. If money talks enough then he’ll run through a few turkeys surely.

What I like about the likes of Lewis is that he took on really hard opponents like Vitali late on in his career. Lucky enough to escape that one and knew not to take a rematch but he had enough miles on the clock by then to make his own decision. I’d think little of Fury if he left the sport without fighting joshua and Usyk.

walshb · 16-10-2021 5:56pm

The great Hughie Fury later!!!

Mantis Toboggan · 16-10-2021 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118029568#Comment_118029568

Needs to be winning this one.

walshb · 16-10-2021 6:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118029734#Comment_118029734

I should hope so at 33-1 on

Mantis Toboggan · 16-10-2021 6:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118029770#Comment_118029770

Surprised with that, Hammer isn't terrible.

badabing106 · 16-10-2021 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024091#Comment_118024091

When did Mike tyson get old?

He was only 29 when he knocked out Bruno to win wbc championship

He was 30 when he knocked out Bruce Sheldon to win the Wba championship. Was he too old then?

A couple of months later when he was still only 30, he fought Holyfield. Evander was 34!

Nobody can blame "old age" on Mike tyson not winning those fights . He came up against a better man, fair and square

walshb · 16-10-2021 7:10pm

Age wise Tyson wasn’t old in the mid 1990s. But he was clearly past his performance/fighting peak, which was only as far as 1989/1990.

He went to prison 1992. Was there 3 years or thereabouts.

He was still quite good post prison, but to anyone who knows boxing and followed him, it was very clear he was not the same fighter in the mid 90s compared to pre 1990s.

I don’t think the poster meant old in the late 30s early 40s sense. I think the poster meant what I have said here.

OmegaGene · 16-10-2021 8:28pm

Hammer retired with a torn bicep, the commentators were mentioning Dubois and Chisora for Hughie, don’t fancy his chances with those boys

Heavyweight Boxing

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