Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Sam Russell · 03-10-2021 12:01pm

The Metrolink will get from the airport to the city centre in, what, 20 mins while the Luas will take twice that. Luas will have less that 50% capacity compared to Metrolink. Of course, we could continue with the coaches from the airport except the roads cannot cope at present, so what happens when demand increases?

Now Metrolink is not just airport to city centre, it is Sandyford to Swords with plenty of journey generators in between. Try using a surface Luas to satisfy all of those.

Metro systems are going in all over the world - except Ireland. What is so exceptional about Ireland that it can manage an old city using surface trams and buses for public transport?

Peregrine · 03-10-2021 12:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970033#Comment_117970033

According to the MoS, Ryan and the Department of Transport are the only ones fighting for it. With all the negative comments coming from "senior officials" from unnamed departments and other cabinet ministers.

roadmaster · 03-10-2021 12:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970190#Comment_117970190

I hope you didnt lower yourself to buying the daily mail

Sam Russell · 03-10-2021 12:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970190#Comment_117970190

Sounds like dirty tricks from at least one of the Gov parties.

Leak some unattributed figures (from unnamed Ministers just to give it extra credibility) of massive costs and elongated timescales into the media and wait for the denials. That figure then grows legs. Look what happened to the Children's Hospital - we have the most expensive hospital in the world by quite a margin that has been being proposed for nearly two decades and is still years away from completion.

Mind you, Metrolink/Merto North has also been proposed for as long.

Peregrine · 03-10-2021 12:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970244#Comment_117970244

I wouldn't be caught dead buying the Mail! 😂

Someone kindly sent me a screenshot of the e-paper.

dublinman1990 · 03-10-2021 3:09pm

My family used to buy the Irish MOS when I was a teenager. But now my mum buys it every Wednesday for the Health section. I think the main problem with buying this paper in the first place is that when big infrastructure projects like Metrolink are being talked about by this paper, is that they are the very 1st paper to actually try to discuss and complain about the costs of the project rather than not discussing the long term value of the project for people who will use it in Dublin over the longer term from it's opening date onwards & then into the future.

When @cgcsb says that the €10 billion figure, or maybe under it, may include things covered in the revised NDP like Metrolink, Dart+, BusConnects; those levels of cost does actually appear to make more sense to me at this point as I would find it to be very good value from a transport user's pov. If anyone was given a figure of €10 billion from the very first indication of it being proposed; people would have gone AWOL. They would justified in their stance of protest in saying that Metrolink was going to be expensive in the long run.

But reality will say to us that we are not approaching those levels of costs for this one project alone. People should be able to understand educate themselves that Metrolink would never approach ever the intention of paying €10 billion for one single line if it was going to be extended to places like Sandyford or even down to Cherrywood that is near to areas like Loughlinstown in a few years time. They will begin to understand later on that this headline figure of €10 billion is just a red herring & should not be relevant when talking about it's long term value once it's built for people living in Dublin. If you were building extensions to the Metrolink to those places; the levels of distance that will be travelled between them is so small that the overall costs of it will be negligible in the long run.

A big reason in how I know this is I do live near the areas of Leopardstown & Sandyford over a very long time. As a local person living near this part of south Dublin; I do understand the advantage of using the Luas in that area many times already since it opened to the public about roughly 17 years ago.

So, in final summary, what I am saying to people here is that they should be able to understand that a big chunk of the Metrolink line already being proposed from Swords to Charlemont/Sandyford is a really good first step to getting the job done while the state goes onto build the first iteration of the project. They should be happy that the project is being committed to getting built by the state under the revised NDP rather than going on to moan about it.

bk · 03-10-2021 3:21pm

RTE news reporting on the NDP:

”RTÉ News understands there will be a firm commitment to Dublin's proposed MetroLink in the document.”

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2021/1003/1250453-national-development-plan/

MyLove4Satan · 03-10-2021 6:02pm

'firm commitment' and actually building the Metro are not the same thing.

As much as this hurts, experiences tells me - beyond a shadow of a doubt - that the Mail on Sunday story is almost certainly the true one.

Airport Luas at the most.

noelfirl · 04-10-2021 8:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970811#Comment_117970811

For any rail based infrastructure in Ireland, until the point that hoardings appear around the construction sites, it's best to conclude whatever it is won't be built. That way you can avoid disappointment.

Murph85 · 04-10-2021 8:58am

There is no point putting the luas to the airport. Just get the planning in for Dublin metro as planned. When traffic hell is back after several more months, see the pressure there will be, if they try to scrap it then....

Pete_Cavan · 04-10-2021 9:23am

There is no suggestion of Luas to the airport, posting about it here is blatantly OT. These "It'll never happen" posts add nothing, shouldn't be permitted.

Murph85 · 04-10-2021 9:34am

In fairness, I suggested a while ago, a greenway out to the airport, instead of Dublin metro . An irish politicians and planners dream, dirt cheap and environmentally friendly...

Could also possibly be completed before 2034...

The sooner the green line is overwhelmed again, with the thousands of apartments planned along the route, the better. That is the only thing that will force the issue...

The single line if it were to go ahead as originally planned and upgrade to metro to sandyford, would carry what? By 2030 with the huge increase In Dublin population by then ?

100,000,0000 passengers a year ? And there they are, spending billions on roads, adding to congestion and climate change.

All of the upgrade projects for motorways on dublins doorstep should be scrapped while money allocated to rail in the region instead...

magicbastarder · 04-10-2021 9:44am

a greenway along which route?

Murph85 · 04-10-2021 9:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117973360#Comment_117973360

It was sarcasm of the highest order... a green way from o'Connell street to Dublin airport instead of Dublin metro. Dirt cheap and " sustainable"... they always try to axe this project the first chance they get...

cgcsb · 04-10-2021 11:48am

Big hint today that there's assurances on metrolink and 'DART+ West'. So no commitment to thw other dart lines?

bk · 04-10-2021 12:41pm

Well Metrolink features highly in the NDP.

The pertinent part:

"Since publication of the last NDP there has been significant progress in terms of non-statutory public consultations and planning & design of the scheme.

A Preliminary Business Case has been submitted for analysis and will be submitted shortly to Government for its approval as required under the Public Spending Code. Approval of the Preliminary Business Case will permit the project to enter the statutory planning process in the first half of 2022 and the funding this NDP delivers will allow the project move off the drawing board and into construction. "

So only a very small (and unsurprising delay), but overall seems to be progressing and one of the main projects.

Kermit.de.frog · 04-10-2021 3:49pm

There is a metro with full planning ready to go. If they were serious they'd have built that but they aren't serious and have zero intention of ever building it.

We were to have a railway order application in on the revised metro months a go. Didn't happen.

And it didn't happen because it's easier to keep pretending to the public it's "progressing" through various processes.

This is code for it's never going to happen but the politicians get kudos by locals for essentially lying and spending small money pretending it will.

And there are many other projects they pretend they are "progressing" as well.

They won't happen either.

spacetweek · 04-10-2021 6:12pm

Metrolink's alignment is better than Metro North's. The decision to take in Tara St was a good one. The decision to extend to Charlemont was a very good one. The decision to interface at Glasnevin instead of Drumcondra was good, etc.

Better to have this version instead of the old one - in any case an attempt to go ahead with Metro North's planning application would almost certainly be liable to legal action as legislation has changed since then.

Peregrine · 04-10-2021 6:31pm

Also, I presume all Metro North CPOs became invalid years ago.

Pete_Cavan · 04-10-2021 7:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117975934#Comment_117975934

Plus Metrolink being driverless will mean it will be infinitely better than MN would have been.

Podge_irl · 04-10-2021 7:31pm

This is code for it's never going to happen but the politicians get kudos by locals for essentially lying and spending small money pretending it will.

Yes. The "locals" are, after all, notoriously fond of these disruptive infrastructure projects.

The delay is frustrating, though at least some delay was inevitable really. If it actually goes for planning in 1H 22 then that is positive and I can't possibly see how it would take until 2030s to get finished.

spacetweek · 05-10-2021 7:34pm

It might still be beyond 2030. The length of time it'll take to build will probably be decided by the contractor and is subject to unexpected delays. I watch Extreme Engineering on Discovery and if I've learned one thing from it it's that every day in a large complex construction project presents new challenges. Bad ones require redo's or even insurance payouts.

My personal guess is that with PP submitted in Q1 '22, and 12-18 months for a decision, and construction start within a year the best start date is Q1 '24. With 6-8 years as the range for construction, that puts it at 2030-2032.

Pity we can't have a phased opening - you could open Swords-Airport since the depot will be at Swords but that would be of limited use.

Pete_Cavan · 05-10-2021 8:39pm

Assuming no major delays (but some delay is inevitable), I could see it being built and open in 6 years. There will be three civil works contracts, so likely to have the combined resources of several of the largest construction companies in this country (possibly with JVs), plus undoubtedly expertise from massive international companies for at least the tunnel. Resources spread all the way from Swords to Charlemont with works happening concurrently.

The main tunnel will obviously take the longest but at least the northern half can be handed over the the line wide systems contract started there, before moving into the tunnel once completed. This should mean that track installation and station fit out isn't reliant on completion of the tunnel.

Even if they can't open the northern section on it's own, it should be possible to start commissioning and even testing of rolling stock before track is laid in the tunnel. Hopefully this would speed up the process once the PPP co. get into the tunnel.

If construction starts H1 2024, opening in 2030 should certainly be possible.

loyatemu · 06-10-2021 9:13am

how long did the port tunnel take?

1huge1 · 06-10-2021 9:39am

Construction took around 5 years

JohnnyChimpo · 06-10-2021 9:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982242#Comment_117982242

MetroLink is also 4-5x time longer (admittedly not all underground). And not to underplay the complexity of the Port Tunnel, but a Metro involves much more complex interactions with the urban landscape of a much more central area of the city.

Chris_5339762 · 06-10-2021 10:48am

Leave 1 - 2, or even 3 years for the various inevitable appeals from entitled locals or someone from Wexford who thinks a rare worm will be injured during construction.

loyatemu · 06-10-2021 12:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982370#Comment_117982370

Port Tunnel is dual bore though, and I would guess bigger bore too. You're right about the complexity though, stations would add a lot of extra work for a start.

06-10-2021 12:11pm

When is this supposed to be finished and in operation?

Sam Russell · 06-10-2021 12:12pm

The Port Tunnel was our first real tunnel - well there was the JL tunnel in Cork.

Peregrine · 06-10-2021 12:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983015#Comment_117983015

TBC

Pete_Cavan · 06-10-2021 12:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983002#Comment_117983002

Stations require a lot of work but they don't really impact the timeline. The station box gets built while the tunnelling is happening and the TBM usually bores into the station box on one side and then out on the other. The tunnelling is the slow part, the station boxes are built simultaneously and the box just needs to be ready by the time the TBM gets there so it is the tunnel which determines the timeline.

marno21 · 07-10-2021 4:38pm

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/165453/0/1?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

RINA Consulting SpA appointed as independent engineering experts to review MetroLink documentation.

spacetweek · 08-10-2021 2:59pm

I emailed Eamon Ryan to complain about recent delays to large public transport investment projects. I got a long detailed email in reply. Here was the part relating to DART+.

"All three [BusConnects, Metrolink, DART+] face imminent and important milestones in the coming months and these milestones will determine the progress of each in the coming years.

Firstly, there is Government’s approval of the Preliminary Business Case and secondly there is the submission of Railway Order and planning applications to An Bord Pleanála.

On that first milestone, the Department of Transport has received Preliminary Business Cases for all three projects. This represents Decision Gate 1 under the Public Spending Code and those Preliminary Business Cases are currently under review. For major projects, like DART+, BusConnects and MetroLink, the Public Spending Code requires a Government decision and Minister Ryan expects to seek such a Government decision in the near future.

If approved by Government, that will allow the contracts to be signed in relation to DART+ Fleet and will also allow MetroLink, DART+ West and the Core Bus Corridors element of BusConnects move into the statutory planning system, subject to the completion of the necessary planning and environmental documentation.

The second impending milestone is the submission of Railway Order applications for DART+ West and MetroLink, and planning applications for the Core Bus Corridors. Those applications require the finalisation of an extensive set of documentation, including environmental impact assessment reports, and that work is ongoing in relation to all three projects.

On MetroLink the Department understands that an extensive body of work remains in relation to finalising the preliminary design, completing the required environmental impact assessment reports and closing out property referencing issues. This should be completed during Q1 next year and, subject to the Government decision mentioned above, the project will then be ready to seek planning permission."

marno21 · 08-10-2021 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117989231#Comment_117989231

Anyone able to weigh in here on this? If these fellas are being appointed does that mean that MetroLink documentation is finalised pending review? If so, once this independent review is complete it'll be ready for submission to An Bord Pleanala?

Pete_Cavan · 09-10-2021 10:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993601#Comment_117993601

From the Information Memorandum (which is available to download in the documents from the link you posted);

Independent Engineering Expert Services

The Services for this Contract include but are not limited to:

(a) Provide a single point of contact acting as a Liaison manager between the Applicant, TII and Stakeholder Groups;

(b) Review all Publicised Emerging Preferred Route and Preferred Route documents;

(c) Review all Public Railway Order documents provided by TII, including design route drawings, the environmental impact assessment report and associated relevant technical papers and any other relevant documents;

(d) The Applicant shall attend meetings with Stakeholder Groups;

(e) The Applicant shall allow for collating questions from stakeholder groups and provide written feedback to TII and Stakeholder Groups;

(f) Develop a suitable report format and structure for the size and complexity of the required reports following relevant stakeholder meetings and agreement of report extent with the Contracting Authority;

(g) Provide report(s) for a non-technical readership on various aspects of the entire MetroLink design as detailed in the documents in the Railway Order Submission on issues and associated issues with the construction and operation of MetroLink;

(h) Chair open sessions to discuss with relevant Stakeholder Groups the findings of such report(s) and hold a Question & Answer session(s) as required; and

(i) The Applicant’s role is to objectively review and report on drawings and documents provided within the Railway Order. It does not extend to carrying out any design or analysis.

So their role is not just limited to looking at the finalised documents, they are also involved before then it seems. I take it from that that their appointment doesn't mean that the documentation is finalised, although it may well be. The publication of the award notice is just an administrative thing, the contract could have been award long before. It does appear that once this independent review is complete (and any recommendations from it actioned), it's ready for submission to ABP.

LXFlyer · 09-10-2021 11:02am

I think that the important caveat to add, is that once the review is complete, the government have to give their approval for it to go to the next stage which is ABP.

There's still that political dimension, which could delay things.

marno21 · 09-10-2021 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996825#Comment_117996825

Going by current media reports it appears this can get Government approval before submission to ABP. The current dates published in the press indicate Government approval this quarter and ABP submission in Q1 next year.

It’ll be an interesting debate at Cabinet where Ryan will be looking for approval for the biggest project in the history of the state from Ministers whose projects in their constituencies he has promised to obstruct as best he can.

Sam Russell · 09-10-2021 11:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996854#Comment_117996854

That cuts both ways though.

Ryan - 'I want this to get the go ahead - and fast. Your pet projects will not get ahead of this one.'

He should be out every week pushing this - it is the Greenest and greenest project out there.

Peregrine · 09-10-2021 11:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996854#Comment_117996854

Government approval has to come before an ABP application. The approval stage before signing the contracts is the big one.

It'll be Q2 before the application is submitted.

cgcsb · 09-10-2021 11:42am

Even after an RO is got government can still shelve it

LXFlyer · 09-10-2021 12:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996928#Comment_117996928

Of course - my point is that there are several points along the process where politics can further delay progress, such as now, before submission to ABP, and also after a Railway Order is granted, if that indeed happens.

And when politics gets involved, that inevitably leads to delays.

jd · 09-10-2021 1:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980847#Comment_117980847

Depot will be south of airport - at Dardistown

LXFlyer · 09-10-2021 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996870#Comment_117996870

It has to go through the government spending cost review process now - he cannot influence that either way.

We will just have to wait on the outcome of that.

Sam Russell · 09-10-2021 1:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997167#Comment_117997167

Well, he can continuously bring it up in every media interview. That is an influence. Radio silence is not influence.

Muahahaha · 09-10-2021 2:12pm

Was just reading that Daily Mail 10bn hit piece, there is no detail in it whatsoever to explain how we have gone from 3bn to 10bn. Granted with construction costs the 3bn was likely closer to 4bn but this other 6bn sounds like a figure just pulled out of the sky, 10 is a nice round figure too.

This line had me despairing, it feels like groundhog day all over again

Now alternatives such as extending the Luas network to the airport and under-served suburbs, and a further ‘Dart spur’ to the airport are being investigated.

The Dart spur was costed during the recession for only 300m at a time of high unemployment in the construction trades and yet never built. It would be open now had they spent the 300m. I know the country was broke but it wasnt that broke, we borrowed 4bn from the UK, Sweden and Denmark so I dont think asking for an extra 300m for infrastructure would have been outrageous in the grand scheme of things. While the Dart spur wouldnt have been a direct route at least it would have gotten the airport connected to the main Dublin to Belfast railway line. Plus it would have used existing station infrastructure. Hindsight is everything but its crazy that it was never done when the cost was negligible and a very cheap way to get a rail link to the aiirport.

Anyway just back to this 10bn costing. Swords to Charlemount is 20km or 12.4 miles. 10bn would give it a cost per mile of 806 million euros. Crossrail in London (which itself is way over budget and 3 years late) has a cost per mile of GBP202 million with a potential rise to 268 million per mile if the expected extra 4bn cost to finish it is added.

So even taking worst case scenario of Crossrail costing 19bn the per mile cost would be GBP268m or in euros 315m per mile. So Im not sure where the Daily Mail and senior civil servants are coming out with this 806m per mile cost for the Metrolink, the figure is clearly pulled out of their arse.

marno21 · 09-10-2021 2:31pm

The 10bn figure is clearly from someone trying to do a hatchet job on the project. It’s completely unfounded and has been picked up frequently in the media since. From that point of view it worked.

€10bn for a partially underground tram line is ridiculous even for Ireland.

Pete_Cavan · 09-10-2021 2:38pm

The Mail were obviously being fed bs by someone trying to derail the project, a Minister apparently. I would like to see questions asked of them on this, although I'm sure they won't give up their source. They, and all media, should be held to some sort of standards and not get away with printing blatant lies.

dublinman1990 · 09-10-2021 11:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997388#Comment_117997388

I really think these so called journalists who broke this apparent breaking news story in the Irish DM nearly 2 weeks ago are not really that good at maths to even come up with this figure in the 1st place. If they don't give to us or other parts of the media any solid hard figures as to how that cost per mile is justified; well we just have to assume that the article written within that sham of a newspaper is completely stuck in fantasy land.

I would also give the view that if taxpayers living here, and along the line itself within North Dublin, were to read about that massive cost per mile going from your own calculations on it while comparing it to Crossrail out in London; they wouldn't really know how to process that information at first. They would be seriously alarmed & disgusted that they could potentially have to pay that much money per mile for a new mode of light rail transport in our capital city which just amounts to 12.4 miles. Our taxpayers could also go on to say that these figures being highlighted for Metrolink from that Irish DM article would simply be plucked out from the lands of the unicorns while these 'projected' costs for it are just based on assumptions alone, from one rag of a newspaper primarily based in the UK, when there is no verifiable hard evidence provided from within government circles to say otherwise.

If you had the real costs of it while it was costed within a headline cost of €4 billion; they would see those costs as being more reasonable to build it in full from start to finish even though it's meant to go out to Sandyford in the near future going from the proposed plans set out in the revised Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy.

People could also ask what the journos from the Irish DM are smoking when they come up with the goods on that €10 biilion cost. If a government minster officially came out on public record to officially outline these costs out in full for all to see with all of it's i's dotted & T's crossed; well then that is something that we should be able to understand once they are given to us in real time. But when that headline figure of €10 billion euro is publicised by those within our media sector with no proof to back it up at this point. More questions need to be asked about how to gain the actual proof of them in the 1st place otherwise it will just be regarded as more loaded BS.

prunudo · 10-10-2021 8:41am

You've got to remember though, we're in era of lazy journalism and click bait articles. They can hide behind 'sources' and are never accountable. And its not just in regards to infrastructure reporting.

Equally we have politicians who speak from both sides of their mouth, they never give a straight answer, have absolutely no backbone and are constantly afraid of saying something for fear a journalist will bring it up again in the future.

Ryan or any other minister won't give a figure of costing as it will either come back to haunt them or they're afraid of being held to account.

And to add to the above, we have a population who by and large don't understand or care about infrastructure projects and only see the headline cost, never dig into the body of the article and instead focus on terms like 'will cost taxpayers....'

Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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