The creeping prominence of the Irish language

ireallydontknow · 02-10-2021 1:36pm #1

My university now sends me emails that are bilingual - sometimes with the texts side by side, sometimes with the Irish text first - with Irish often appearing in the subject line. The signs for lecture theatres have just this year been replaced to include Irish. A new student space is called 'Zón Mac Leinn'.

The Dart now makes announcements in Irish first. Signage in Pearse Dart station has been replaced giving Irish more prominence.

All council signs, such as those relating to pandemic restrictions, are bilingual, with the Irish appearing to the left or above the English.

The Lighthouse cinema is running a festival called Samhain na mBan, which is celebrating woman in horror.

It seems to me that certain laws about the prominence of Irish that were enacted quietly are now being acted on by Irish language zealots in public bodies.

Aleppo_rex · 02-10-2021 1:43pm

If you were in France I'm sure the train announcements would be in French. If you studied in Germany I'm sure the correspondence from the University would be in German. If you drive around Ireland you'll see road signs in English and Irish... mad isn't it?!

Probably due to all those irish language zealots in the dept.of transport

banie01 · 02-10-2021 1:56pm

OP's username certainly checks out.

Furze99 · 02-10-2021 2:13pm

All stems from the Official Languages Act 2003.

Given it’s wide ranging impact on citizens in their daily lives, this legislation should have been put to a referendum.

endacl · 02-10-2021 2:17pm

Tír gan teanga etc.

02-10-2021 2:36pm

Like it or not, the language is not spoken on a daily basis even by most gaeltacht residents. HAving adapted English, the language of global commerce, there's really no going back. I would be in favour of making the language optional from Secondary school so that the resources are directed at those who have a passion for the language, as someone who learned and retained more French in 5 years than I did Irish in 13.

I shudder to think of the cost of all the printed Irish documents, signs, etc. which are never read. It's idealism winning over practicality. I would love to see Gaeltacht areas developed to make the language live and thrive in a small way, but expecting it to displace English is not sensible.

colm_mcm · 02-10-2021 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967143#Comment_117967143

Do you know the percentage of the population that are monolingual Irish speakers?

its 0.2% and they rarely leave the Gaeltacht.

The One Doctor · 02-10-2021 4:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967476#Comment_117967476

And the biggest group of fluent Irish speakers is in...

...Swords.

Cyclingtourist · 02-10-2021 5:02pm

This type of 'revival' will just get people's backs up and have the opposite effect to that intended. They've learnt nothing in almost 100 years.

KaneToad · 02-10-2021 5:25pm

It doesn't get my back up. I would be a supporter of the Irish language.

I am not a zealot. I am not a fluent speaker. I never went to the Gaeltacht as a kid. I just think it is a very important part of our culture and heritage. I agree with the 'Tīr gan teanga' philosophy.

CGI_Livia_Soprano · 02-10-2021 5:30pm

“I’m fine with reviving the Irish language so long as I never need to hear it or be exposed to it.” 🤨🧐🤔

Some of the sentiments on this site are bizarre and just so incredibly stupid.

Reati · 02-10-2021 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211385/the-creeping-prominence-of-the-irish-language

Good stuff. What's the problem?

CGI_Livia_Soprano · 02-10-2021 5:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968004#Comment_117968004

I can only imagine the fury of the poor put-down upon English speaker when he heard “an baile mor” over the train tannoy.

“I was all for the Irish language but I never thought I would ever actually hear it” he screams as he falls to his knees and covers his bleeding ears.

Cyclingtourist · 02-10-2021 5:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968069#Comment_117968069

Well if you 'support' it then go and learn it, pushing it on people who don't support it is just going to get their backs up.

snowstorm445 · 02-10-2021 5:40pm

In the examples given by the OP I'm failing to see where there is any element of compulsion involved in having to read or communicate through Irish. At no stage are you being forced to use Irish to understand your surroundings. All I can see is Irish being given equal prominence to English and Irish cultural outlets being available to those who are interested, which apparently seems to cause you a lot of bother.

It's a classic example of people in a dominant prestige language community turning up their noses at the cheek of giving recognition to another language. The mere fact that they are equal is outrageous or objectionable.

I live in Belgium and you sometimes see the exact same attitude. A legacy of French being the dominant language, and Francophones frothing at the mouth at the mere notion of Dutch appearing on signs/being considered their equal. They're never actually forced to learn it or use it, they just feel disgusted at the thought of having to encounter it in their daily lives, or god forbid listen to it in any context.

It's a cliché to bring up postcolonialism here but I can't think a single other society in Europe where the demonisation and estrangement of a community from their own historic language was more thorough than in Ireland. Many Welsh mightn't speak Welsh but I doubt you'd hear actual Welsh people claiming that Welsh appearing on a few signs is outrageous. Ditto for Basques or Frisians or any other language community. If you talk to most people outside of Ireland when the subject of Irish comes up many people have great sympathy for it and it's continued survival. Most of the hatred and glee at it's decline nowadays only seems to exist in Ireland, oddly enough.

CGI_Livia_Soprano · 02-10-2021 5:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968132#Comment_117968132

Nail on the head. It’s the typical post colonial trying to toady up to his betters stuff you get from the Irish (particularly in Dublin).

One chap even said that English is the international language of “commerce,” like he’s flying from port to port crunching out million dollar deals with the muckity mucks from Wall Street. Meanwhile the closest he’ll get to high finance is trying to choose which flavour of Lucozade he’ll get with his 5euro sandwich deal. Delusions of grandeur. 😂

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-10-2021 6:39pm

It's like they'll do anything to revive the language, except actually teach it in a manner that actually interests people.

CGI_Livia_Soprano · 02-10-2021 7:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968337#Comment_117968337

People running the train announcements aren’t responsible for teaching Irish.

L1011 · 02-10-2021 7:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967292#Comment_117967292

Would have passed at the time, easily.

A retrospective one with all the costs involved might not have.

Cyclingtourist · 02-10-2021 7:24pm

Train announcements etc. is a typical 'box ticking' exercise. Can everyone who supports this type of carry-on please state whether they can actually converse in Irish.

For the record I can't but then I don't support this pseudo-revivalism

Reati · 02-10-2021 7:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968464#Comment_117968464

Which costs? Can you detail them out?

listermint · 02-10-2021 7:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968185#Comment_117968185

Muckity mucks.

Nearly spat out my finely poured pint of Guinness. Top drawer commentary !

L1011 · 02-10-2021 7:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968526#Comment_117968526

Translation and printing for Irish language versions of various state documents that don't get used / requested in Irish.

The total roadsign replacement in Gaeltachts.

The costs of state agencies updating all materials to reflect renaming

The plebiscites to try fix renaming in areas where it was contentious

Remaking street signs to fix the language order.

Reati · 02-10-2021 7:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968567#Comment_117968567

Those are some examples of line items.

What are the costs of those?

KaneToad · 02-10-2021 7:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968112#Comment_117968112

I did learn it. At school.

L1011 · 02-10-2021 7:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968587#Comment_117968587

FOI them if you want to know.

They aren't free, which is my point. The ILA brought in costs that didn't exist.

KaneToad · 02-10-2021 7:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968337#Comment_117968337

I was taught it, in a manner that interested me. In a state school in a working class area in Dublin.

dudley72 · 02-10-2021 7:56pm

If anythign the Irish language is on the up. The number of Gaelscoil's is increasing and the attendance at these school's is higher than ever.

Some people will always complain about the language but I think that is mostly because a few years back the teaching was terrible. I don't know what it is like in standard primary schools now but in Gaelscoils they have excellent way to teach the kids how to learn and it ain't sitting getting words hammered into them.

Parachutes · 02-10-2021 7:57pm

That aboriginal language belongs in the past anyway, these sorts of schemes are a waste of everyone’s time and a massive waste of money.

Reati · 02-10-2021 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968593#Comment_117968593

Nothing in life is free. You made the statement that people wouldn't support it if they knew about the costs, like you knew about the costs.

I'll take it you don't have any actual figures to back up the statement.

02-10-2021 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211385/the-creeping-prominence-of-the-irish-language

Surely the zealotry is assuming everything should be always in English. In none of these cases was English not included

this anti Irish language attitude is like the English tourist abroad who expects everything to be in English in every country.

02-10-2021 8:02pm

Is there any other country in the world where so little of their citizens speak their ‘first’ language.

Cyclingtourist · 02-10-2021 8:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968588#Comment_117968588

Didn't we all. ;-)

02-10-2021 8:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967292#Comment_117967292

We really need civics courses in this country.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-10-2021 8:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968596#Comment_117968596

You, sadly for the language, are the exception.

If you weren't a revival wouldn't be necessary.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-10-2021 8:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968643#Comment_117968643

Pretty much every country that's been colonised at some point in their history, although is depends on your meaning of 'first'.

Furze99 · 02-10-2021 8:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968654#Comment_117968654

We need referendums on legislation such as this which impacts significantly on ordinary citizens lives.

This was a pet project of Eamon O'Cuiv - no one explained the full rollout of measures and asked the citizenry if we really wanted it.

Reati · 02-10-2021 8:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968666#Comment_117968666

Tell us more about how it's impacting on daily life as an ordinary citizen.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-10-2021 8:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968666#Comment_117968666

I honestly don't think you'd get that much of a turnout for a referendum on something as trivial as this!

02-10-2021 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968666#Comment_117968666

We don’t need a referendum on anything that is not unconstitutional. The Irish language act is clearly not unconstitutional because Irish is the *first* official language of the country. how the fcuk do you not know that

if you guys want to get rid of the minor inconvenience of Irish road signs you need to change that. Start a public campaign to get enough parties in the Dail and Seanad to vote for the referendum and then get a majority to vote for removing Irish as an official language. Then the 2003 act will be unconstitutional.

ireallydontknow · 02-10-2021 8:19pm

Mention was made above of post-colonialism. The claim is that a 'cultural cringe' causes some Irish people to dislike the native language in favour of the coloniser's. That might once have been true but is there really anyone today who feels inferiority about any aspect of Irish culture? Irish people are often negative about day to day running of the country, but it seems conspicuous to me that there is near universal appreciation for our culture and national character. How often is it said that we should be more like England?! It's easy to ascribe dislike of Irish to some nebulous academic concept but it doesn't hold up to closer inspection.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968631#Comment_117968631

Actually two of them - Zón Mac Leinn and Samhain na mBan - did not contain English, but I'm sure you'll easily jettison that particular argument on seeing it disproved. The zealotry is wanting equal prominence for a language that is spoken by a small minority. Not happy with partial recognition, they insist on Irish appearing before the English. That is the zealotry.

The fact that you caricature the English tourist abroad, as though the Irish aren't just as bad and the Americans worse, tells me all I need to know about your instincts.

Furze99 · 02-10-2021 8:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968676#Comment_117968676

Every single piece of public information issued by the state is supposed to carry it in Irish first and then in English and with the former of at least equal prominence. That has a big impact on the delivery of public information. In a country where a very small minority will read or listen to the version as Gaeilge, it interferes substantially with the message and information.

I've no problem at all with a requirement for information in Irish to those who want it, but it shouldn't be pushed onto all citizens without their agreement.

L1011 · 02-10-2021 8:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968625#Comment_117968625

Might not have.

You don't have the figures either, so drop the disingenuous, misrepresenting argument tactics.

Reati · 02-10-2021 8:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968722#Comment_117968722

That's hardly the dramatic level of impact you eluded too.

Furze99 · 02-10-2021 8:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968688#Comment_117968688

It most certainly would have, if it's consequences were explained to voters in full. God help the poor tourists when they come and try to get around on public transport in say Dublin. Their guidebook says Bluebell and they're supposed to figure out that the bus timetable on the stops has An Cloigín Gorm, which by the way is pure MakeyUppy. Bluebell was and is an English name.

ohnonotgmail · 02-10-2021 8:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968666#Comment_117968666

the purpose of a referendum is to agree on changes to the constitution. there is no change to the constitution with the Languages Act and so no need for a referendum.

L1011 · 02-10-2021 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968749#Comment_117968749

We do have the basis for an ordinary referendum on laws which would (presumably) be constitutional but are deemed of national importance by the President on the advice of the Council of State.

It has never happened. It very likely never will happen.

ireallydontknow · 02-10-2021 8:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968722#Comment_117968722

I've often thought this of the warnings on cigarette packets. The stuff about 'Nil ag tabac...' greatly diminishes the effect of the warning. Here, then, is an example where the insistence on equal prominence is incontestably detrimental. If the warnings are genuinely effective, then diminishing their effectiveness actually costs lives.

ohnonotgmail · 02-10-2021 8:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968758#Comment_117968758

and it has no place in relation to the Languages Act.

L1011 · 02-10-2021 8:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968767#Comment_117968767

Well, some people might consider it to be that important. I seriously doubt any President would do so on advice though!

Furze99 · 02-10-2021 8:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968749#Comment_117968749

True and it's the self delusion expressed in said constitution that allowed this to happen. Just like the self delusion involved in articles 2 & 3 concerning our assertion of rights over the entire island of Ireland. But we saw the reality and sense in modifying that claim.

Doesn't mean there was no need for a referendum. You can bet if this was say Switzerland, we'd have had one..

The creeping prominence of the Irish language

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