Revoking of SACF rifles & New Legislation (thread banned users in first post)

Grizzly 45 · 13-09-2021 9:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117886689#Comment_117886689

Think that's been changed?I could be wrong,but ASFIK if the article is quoted in full along with the journalist who wrote it is given full credit,and it's not used for commercial purposes it's not considered copyright infringement? Think there was something in 2012 with the rape crisis centre that blew this up? Or is it the hyperlinks to the article are OK?🤔

Cass · 13-09-2021 10:30pm

Not aware of any amendments or changes but if there has been any you're aware off please do let me know and I'll adjust the forum posting appropriately.

As for hyperlinks, they were always ok. The bit we had at the start of it all was they initially allowed one paragraph and a link, then we're told this is not allowed and it can only be a sentence but not verbatim. IOW no copying and pasting, you had to explain the sentence in your own words and a link.

As said if that has changed, for the better, then let me know as it'll make my job easier.

yubabill · 13-09-2021 10:42pm

You guys and gals will have to forgive my memory, but I'm often close to the mark.

Look, we agree we have to fight this, now we must decide how to fight.

It's been six years and several ministers since this ban was posited. We were consulted before this was formulated, we deserve to be consulted again before this goes to legislation, in the name of democracy; and we have seen a diminution of democracy in the last year and a half, so it's time it was rehabilitated.

A priority is that we need to talk to the Justice Committee as before; we must question the relevance of the stated ban in light of the lack of the FAAA; we need more info on the pattern of S/a c/f licensing prior to 2015 in order to see if there is a pattern of proliferation; we must question whether/if we are being treated proportionately by legislation and whether/if authorities are trying to marginalise us (banning lead ammo while exempting AGS and army/hiding firearms when travelling/banning categories of firearms such as c/f s/a etc., etc.); we must state again our case for c/f s/a rifles.

To get in front of the committee we must compile a list of TD's and write to them;

Marian Harkin

Matt Carthy

Sean Fleming

Sean O'Fearghail

FG guy S Kildare

Ivana Bacik (someone on here has her ear, don't know who but please come forward).

Anyone else, open to suggestions.

yubabill · 13-09-2021 10:43pm

griz, send me some kind of email address by PM and I'll send the article to you for private consumption.

judestynes · 14-09-2021 8:58am

"From Yubabill"

"To get in front of the committee we must compile a list of TD's and write to them;

Marian Harkin

Matt Carthy

Sean Fleming

Sean O'Fearghail

FG guy S Kildare

Ivana Bacik (someone on here has her ear, don't know who but please come forward).

Anyone else, open to suggestions."

We'd really have to include the Healy Rea's.

Munsterlad102 · 14-09-2021 9:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117884424#Comment_117884424

"An immediate temporary cap", now where have I heard the word temporary before🙄

Munsterlad102 · 14-09-2021 9:43am

Just to address some of the points I've read in this thread and how best we can oppose this new legislation.

We need to treat all gun control and attempted gun control as an attack on our sport, even if that doesn't directly affect our respective disciplines. It really does seem like this is taking on the 'slippery slope' approach, first cf pistols, then cf magazines now cf sa rifles, next what? And that is the question we need to be asking. It may only be 40 odd licences being revoked but it won't stop there, someone mentioned that .22lr pistols would be reviewed if there was in increase in licencing. So naturally the gun community would have to form a united front against all gun control, not just an attitude of 'ah well, I got my AR in 2010, that doesn't affect me". What if they come for your rifle next?
We need to form an organization that actually cares about preserving cf sa shooting. Think of the Firearms Policy Coalition in the US and how more effective they were than the NRA. There is clearly far too much bad blood between all the shooting orgs that have rendered them ineffective and people in this thread clearly recognize that. To those people, complaining isn't going to get you far, leaving those orgs and not paying subs/fees is the only thing that is going to hurt them.
Regarding the aims of former minister Frances Fitzgerald, "The Minister intends to introduce an immediate temporary cap on the licensing of any new centre-fire semi-automatic rifles pending the establishment and determination of the Authority". I don't have a legal background or anything, but surely this 6 year late ban is dubious at best, certainly for an immediate and temporary cap. The only realistic way this ban will be reversed is if the government has to put it's hand in it's pocket, which isn't going to be the best PR in the middle of a housing crisis.
It's no secret that the public aren't going to be sympathetic to our cause, so I think the best approach would be to send off letters and emails to certain sympathetic TDs. At the end of the day, the TDs are the only ones who can stop this bill from passing.

That's just my ill informed 2 cents anyway, criticism and feedback welcome.

Grizzly 45 · 14-09-2021 12:12pm

FWIW I have a direct line to be able to get to meet this minister in charge of this,via Willie O Dea my local TD,and he said to for me to call him before the Dail resumes. So we have a window of opportunity to put our questions and demands in person.

But it needs to be a group or delegation of people showing up to a personal meeting,[if such things are done these COVID days],and writing and coordinating as one entity. One person showing up ,or writing single letters is not going to work or look serious. IOW this is now the time for people to put their heads above the parapets and go over the top. So any volunteers?

And before the Fudds and naysayers go into "That's not your job, or you don't have a mandate from shooters to do so!" Says who? Any citizen or group is entitled to lobby their govt reps whether there is an organisation or not representing their interest. I know three of the lads on the NASRPC current committee and they are good guys who have proven themselves in the arena of the licensing courts and have possible skin in the game too. So I know they are no doubt on this too but are just taking a different route. Which is fair enough so long as we all arrive at the same destination with the same objectives.

Grizzly 45 · 14-09-2021 12:50pm

It's been six years and several ministers since this ban was posited. We were consulted before this was formulated, we deserve to be consulted again before this goes to legislation, in the name of democracy; and we have seen a diminution of democracy in the last year and a half, so it's time it was rehabilitated.

The difference between then and now was that it was a desperate move by the then very desperate firearms staff of AGS to throw Sht on everything and hope some it sticks to the Irish gun owner. Remember they were going after pump and semi shotguns, handguns and anything else possible. So they brought all the shooting orgs down upon themselves and opened a whole 12 pak of worm cans on the whole issue of PULSE, how licenses etc were handled. In fact,it was how the SC[ovI]] came about and for once it pretty much briefly united the Irish shooting scene. NOW, this is a nibble that only affects a "tiny minority" of the shooting scene, but has the potential to kill off the growth of three disciplines and one branch of shooting. So can we mobilise the same sort of response that we had in 2016 on this one issue? Remembering of course that the largest organisation of gun owners here [IFA] actively stated that they saw no reason for handguns or SA CF in civilian hands.

A priority is that we need to talk to the Justice Committee as before; we must question the relevance of the stated ban in light of the lack of the FAAA; we need more info on the pattern of S/a c/f licensing prior to 2015 in order to see if there is a pattern of proliferation;

It's if I remember the excellent job done by Sparks here in his pie chart at the time from PULSE figures 0.00001% increase in licenses pre 2015,[was like 140?] and was the same sort of statistic for crimes in which legally held SACF were used in crime. So could a better math genius than me work out with the official figures of 39 new licenses going by OFFICAL figures is in an increase since then?

we must question whether/if we are being treated proportionately by legislation and whether/if authorities are trying to marginalise us (banning lead ammo while exempting AGS and army/hiding firearms when travelling/banning categories of firearms such as c/f s/a etc., etc.); we must state again our case for c/f s/a rifles.

Part of the above is proposed EU legislation[IE the armed forces /police having an exemption].That's mostly to do with the Govts being held responsible for having to de pollute vast tracts of military and police ranges and training grounds of lead in the soil.

But you do have a point,and there are a few things WE need to discuss with the govt about THEIR responsibilities under EU legislation to us. Like how about them providing a proof house,as they are supposed to do under EU legislation to test and approve any firearms for non-lead shot?

As we cant send them to the UK anymore for proof as the UK is no longer in the EU. Nor can we deact firearms to EU standards without a proof house here, and it is a costly and vexatious process to ship them to Germany or Belgium, etc. This is like demanding an NCT for Ireland, but the NCT centre is in France.

Also, with their legislation of allowing gun dealers to be gunsmiths and having no proof of proper quality work done on a firearm, or one being built properly. The govt is leaving itself wide open to litigation,if one of these Irish made guns causes an accident,as they certified some dealer as a gunsmith under their own law. Nor bTW can you legally sell the gun on if you had one made for yourself either in Ireland or the EU,as it is not in proof.

So yeah as Mehole Martin said lets look at the firearms laws and let's see where the Irish govt is falling down too on their responsibilities, as it might be quite expensive too for them as well.

BSA International · 14-09-2021 3:02pm

Someone mentioned classic rifle as a discipline going if s/a f/b rifles are banned. Hardly. Most use bolt action rifles. Let's make sure of the facts before statements are made otherwise is costs us credibility and creates a stick to beat us with.

Shooting orgs are by and large useless and are not elected or do they represent their members views in my experience.

Self appointed individuals have created a lot of our current problems.

We have no right to anything.

If we do/did win "they" change the law.

Only solution create a visible and tangible voting community and "sell" our collective votes to any party that does not screw us over

jb88 · 14-09-2021 3:23pm

send your submission to Justice@oireachtas.ie

and individually to all those members on the Justice committee

Deputies

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Fine Gael

Green Party

Fine Gael

Sinn Féin

Labour Party

Sinn Féin

James Lawless - Chair

Fianna Fáil

Thomas Pringle

Independent

Niamh Smyth

Fianna Fáil

But always remember the one among you who started this little sh&t show.

Leave others to fight the battle,

jb88 · 14-09-2021 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887390#Comment_117887390

Absolute waste of time contacting any of them, they have no influence or power in these decisions.

jb88 · 14-09-2021 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117888435#Comment_117888435

you want any of this stuff in the future, fight your battle now and put your submission into justice@oireachtas.ie otherwise stay like the rest and keyboardwarrior on dude

jb88 · 14-09-2021 3:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890279#Comment_117890279

Justice@oireachtas.ie put in your submission and agree to stand before them when they meet as an individual, forget about the groups in this country, all have other monetary interests outside the sport and if your relying on someone else then hand in your stuff now and quit the sport.

Doubt I will see any on here in the flesh when it all starts happening so enjoy, keep up mashing the keys, it will do you no good to vent on this forum.

Cass · 14-09-2021 4:13pm

Moderator Warning.

Directed only at @jb88 . Cut out the name calling and insults [thread disruption] otherwise I'll remove your ability to post. You had six years to do something other than call names and insult this forum and its members but contributed exactly zero, barring "its scaremongering", "it'll never happen", "just go buy one [SACF]".

BSA International · 14-09-2021 5:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890403#Comment_117890403

I don't own a f/b s/a, nor do I want to, so any submission from me would/could be seen as pointless?

I do agree it's the thin edge of a wedge.

I remember when you were lucky to have a s/s 12g and a .22lr rifle. Things improved after things quietened down up North and after NARGC took a few Court cases.

Then the "scary" stuff started appearing and Gardai got worried. Some stuff I've seen here the lads & ladies in the Defence Forces wouldn't have ready access to 😀

Sure 'twas good while it lasted. Bit like the Celtic Tiger 😞

Munsterlad102 · 14-09-2021 6:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890875#Comment_117890875

"First they came for the sa cf, but I did not speak out, for I did not own one. Then they came for the 22 pistols, but I did not speak out, for I did not own one. Then they came for my guns, but there was no one left to speak out for me".

I hate to sound cliche, but that's the case. You say how there was a time that you would have been lucky to have a 22lr or s/s, well do you want to return to those times because that's where we're headed. Our sport is under attack, will you turn and run or stand and fight? The choice is yours, just remember the dire costs for inaction.

jb88 · 14-09-2021 6:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890875#Comment_117890875

I think you missed the point, just like all the CF pistol guys back in the day. Just because you dont own something, does that mean your against someone else not having it. I think my point is already made and has been responded too

smmember20 · 14-09-2021 6:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117889140#Comment_117889140

Was it you do who had Willie ask those cracking questions in the house, well formed my friend only one answer yes we are planning legislation to ban the CF's. Oh my we need more questions like that to poke the sleeping bear!!

BSA International · 14-09-2021 6:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117891110#Comment_117891110

Tired of fighting for stuff. Takes away from the enjoyment.

Done my share of fighting. You lead the way, I'll follow this time.

BSA International · 14-09-2021 6:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117891136#Comment_117891136

I was one of those centrefire pistol owners. We're you? What point did "we" miss?

As I said, I don't have a c/f s/a rifle, I don't want one, and I'll add for clarification, I don't mind if you have one or want one. But my opinion doesn't really count does it.

Cass · 14-09-2021 7:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117891270#Comment_117891270

I heard this line of nonsense from other people on other platforms. "Don't say anything, it'll go away if nobody mentions it."

The 2008 pistol ban was as a result of gangland violence and the Government's impotence in being able to tackle it so choosing to punish legal gun owners.
The statement from the Minister in 2015 was a virtue signaling move in response to multiple shootings in OTHER countries.
The Lead Ban has been in the works since 2003, and only fought in the last couple.
The magazine ban was another virtue signaling exercise started in the EU and quickly adopted by their Irish lackies.
The RFD SI from 2019 came about without any input or knwoeldge of it from the RFDs. They knew nothing about it until it was signed/published.

This was always going to happen and was never going to go away and the "head in the sand" attitude over the last six years has done nothing but show the DoJ that there is no coherent and unified resistance to such measures. This should have been argued from day one instead of saying it'll go away, that it was scaremongering, etc. The complete and utter lack of opposition, argument, resistance and fight from the shooting community until, ONCE AGAIN, the 11th hour is typical.

To think that any one person, by asking questions, can somehow result in a full Act being drafted is beyond daft.

Lastly, instead of now trying to organise and do something we have accusations, the blame game and throwing insults because, you know, that is productive/helpful. I agree on one aspect mentioned above. I think its too late to stop. This is not a case of going in, meeting the involved parties, and trying to shape the legislation. According to reports/letters the legislation is drafted, and has been since last years, and while there is still time a lot of opportunites have been missed.

smmember20 · 14-09-2021 7:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117891418#Comment_117891418

Sorry CASS it was not the fact that questions were asked but just the nature of them, in my line of business a YES/NO question of open to only a yes or a no, I was not implying that questions should not be asked, just saying they could have been worded better! did you see the questions as they were asked and the answers could only be one answer...... Don't get me wrong and apologies if the content came over wrong!

Cass · 14-09-2021 7:48pm

My mistake so.

I did see the questions and no matter how they were worded the answers were always going to be the same. Plus TDs will not give any question the proper structure or format it needs because they only care (and not being too general or flippant here) about asking them and not the answers. IOW their only function is to be seen to be working. I don't expect more from them so am not surprised, but nor am I diaappointed.

No matter the push back from us, the TDs, etc. this ban is happening and was always going to. The answers given by the Minister's office are the same rhetoric and its bullsh*t and we all know it. Look at the "how dangerous these firearms are" part of the answer. That along with the public safety issue raised is crap, and so much so it was raised in court regarding refusals whre a justice said to cite public safety concerns but give no examples or relevant examples of how public safety is "endangered" is not in itself an argument.

In short the DoJ are saying its for public saefty but cannot give one example of how banning these firearms will improve public safety or prevent any harm to the public. Nor will they be able to as the mass shootings we see in other countries, especially ones will these types of firearms, simply do not and have never happended here.

This legilsation has one function. To ban guns the DoJ do not want us having. Nothing else.

Cass · 14-09-2021 8:05pm

One other point I'd like to have an answer to, which was raised in the Minister's reply. They said the FCP has met once a year for the past few years leading up to the the covid "breakdown" of meetings.

How was this legislation not raised in those meetings?

Surely if they [FCP] were meeting and this legislation was on the books then it was being discussed? Why did no one ask the questions that needs asking during these meetings? If the topic was not raised why did the groups claiming to represent the shooting community not raise them and follow up on this "threat" of a ban?

I don't believe for a second that no one knew this was coming and it was never brought up. It shows incompetence or apathy from whomever was present at these meetings that such questions were not posed. The very troubling part is they were asked or the topic was brough up and nothing was passed onto the shooting commuity by the preresentatives.

Grizzly 45 · 14-09-2021 8:57pm

I remember when you were lucky to have a s/s 12g and a .22lr rifle. Things improved after things quietened down up North and after NARGC took a few Court cases.

Not quite at all!...One "self-appointed" man took it upon himself 14 years after the Good Friday agreement to go and ask for his single-shot .22 Russian Toz pistol back. Should have seen the shite thrown at him for "rocking the boat, etc, etc" when he went and did this.With his own money too to the High Court. When he won it, of course, he was the great man and fair play to him, etc, etc...From the very same people who were knocking him down 12 months before. 🤢🤮

The NARGC were "Johnny come lately" to this party, and only got involved years later when some members who had handgun applications, not renewals refused on them, went and used the firearms fighting fund to make the NARGC support them in two very legally ill-advised court cases one in the HC and Supreme court which NARGC lost, badly. Which contributed to the mess we have today too.

The rest of the cases post 2008 were individuals who paid their own legal expenses and fees and went to the district courts the length and breadth of this country with maybe moral support from NARGC and NASRPC,but those organisations did not contribute to legal costs in any shape or form. I should know as I only took four of those cases as a plaintiff in Limerick DC against the state, and was one of the 1st cases to be awarded costs against the state in the changed district court act in Oct 2015... Just so you know.😉

Then the "scary" stuff started appearing and Gardai got worried. Some stuff I've seen here the lads & ladies in the Defence Forces wouldn't have ready access to.

Probably, but it was also our own stupidity, thru an "approved organisation" scaring the bejaysus out of the Garda chief commissioner, the minister for justice, and the head of the ERU, by running an utter circus of an IPSC match course, at full tilt boogie. Which they were advised NOT to do, but did.Stuff like shooting off swing platforms and shooting out of a car,[albeit a mock up of one that looked like PostmanPats van],etc. The head of the ERU supposedly has to have said that his men wouldn't have a chance against anyone who shot that fast and trained in those scenarios! Hence we have now a ban on IPSC in the Republic courtesy of an approved organisation. The remnants who now slink off to NI to shoot IPSC, and claim to represent the Republic, but have done precisely...nothing...As a "recognised body" to restart IPSC in the Republic in the last 15 years.

Add to that a virulent anti-gun minister for Justice just looking for an excuse to "tighten up the gun laws" as he said at the assoc of garda Sgts and inspectors conference of May 2006,and cynically used to murder of an innocent in Limerick with an illegally held handgun by a criminal under orders from his drug-addled boss to "shoot anyone there",as an excuse to prevent a "US-style gun culture" [Whatever the Hell that is] happening in Ireland. Of course, the "recognised bodies" were too busy in appendage measuring when this happened to heed all the radar blips appearing on the screen at the time to call him on this.

Add to that the utter King of Walter Mitty types living in the ministers own constituency of Louth, who professed to be an international bodyguard, man of mystery and plain old action man, papal knight and founder of his own Gallowglass cadre of guardians to the Pope who was running armed bodyguard courses in his supposedly ancestral pile.

That kind of sealed the deal for handguns and IPSC here. Yeah, you are right about the army not having access to stuff civilians have...Semi-auto rifles wouldn't be much good to them in a modern conflict.

Grizzly 45 · 14-09-2021 9:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117891270#Comment_117891270

I'm sorry...Are you being sarcastic in the last bit? Or your whole reply is supposed to be sarcasm?🤔

Sorry CASS it was not the fact that questions were asked but just the nature of them, in my line of business a YES/NO question of open to only a yes or a no, I was not implying that questions should not be asked, just saying they could have been worded better! did you see the questions as they were asked and the answers could only be one answer...... Don't get me wrong and apologies if the content came over wrong!

Well seeing not all of us do not have your either legal[?] or political [?]training or professional ability, I have to make do with what I have, and seeing that there wasn't anyone to hand to form them in a yes-no and flowery legal or political language, this is what we have, and if you are volunteering your services in either field...Please PM me as we always welcome extra-legal or political counsel on the team. Seriously! And you missed one thing the questions we asked were in a written reply, not the ones asked verbally in the Dail...😉

Grizzly 45 · 14-09-2021 9:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117891841#Comment_117891841

Pretty simple answer to that...It ASFIK hasn't met the minister or the DOJ in the last 4 +/-years! And when it does it was apparently a nodding dog meeting of what the minister says must be done by the underlings.

smmember20 · 14-09-2021 9:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117891841#Comment_117891841

Has anyone asked the representatives who were supposed to represent the shooting interest at the FCP these questions. Maybe they were discussed and nobody reported it! Seems like the flow of information is seriously lacking!

smmember20 · 14-09-2021 9:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117892196#Comment_117892196

Who is ASFIK?

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Revoking of SACF rifles & New Legislation (thread banned users in first post)

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County