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Any other women here vote NO for the 8th?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,924 ✭✭✭✭ Loafing Oaf


    The abortion legislation that the government proposed to introduce if the referendum passed was published before the referendum. You and others concerned about 'hard cases' were incapable of reading that legislation, and making up your own minds whether abortion was likely to be 'rare' under those conditions?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,924 ✭✭✭✭ Loafing Oaf


    It was used a bit early in the campaign

    but then quietly dropped, I'd imagine because it would be seen as disengenuous.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This absolute rubbish again.

    the 8th amendment put the life of the unborn on the same level legally as the mother.

    So, if I was 6 weeks pregnant I am no longer in control of ANY medical treatment on my own body.

    do you really think that is acceptable?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,986 ✭✭✭ Igotadose


    Just a WUM. Doesn't have a cogent argument and recycles what it thinks is its brilliant observations from time to time. "theft". "Masturbation." But, yeah, the WUM (posting seemingly from US time) claims to have voted to repeal.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I am also not in control of ANY medical treatment on my own body.

    do you think that is acceptable? Can I ask are you make or female?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Is it acceptable that at a first scan the doctors find a tumour, the woman does not have any decision making in her own treatment in regard to that tumour.

    Also, I see you didn't answer whether you're male or female?



  • Registered Users Posts: 35,326 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail


    so if a woman presents to her doctor with cancer and is subsequently found to be pregnant she shouldn't demand treatment for that cancer?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ok thank you!

    that is what the 8th amendment did. My body, my choice, wasn't all about abortion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,023 ✭✭✭✭ Mr. CooL ICE


    It's a stupid analogy. That's a public decency issue and you're trying to compare it to a private healthcare issue. And we're all naked under our clothes.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,023 ✭✭✭✭ Mr. CooL ICE


    Yes, yes you do. And I have no idea why you think that's in any way relevant to this thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 35,326 ✭✭✭✭ ohnonotgmail


    is it any wonder the No side lost if they present arguments that are that stupid?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭ uptherebels


    You must have been asleep in the build up to the referendum. Or really really naive. How were you conned? The government released the heads of bill before the vote circa 10 pages iirc of info on what the legislation would be after the vote. And Harris went to lengths not to deviate from them.

    The procedure is safe at least as safe as a procedure can be. Nobody said there wouldn't be a medical misdiagnosis.

    There were thousands and thousands of Irish women getting abortions before repeal, did you think these were magically going to disappear?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,696 ✭✭✭ Effects


    Routine, and no big deal? Maybe that's how you see abortion.

    Anyone I know that's had one, it was a very big deal for them, and certainly not routine.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,986 ✭✭✭ Igotadose


    Key point of difference... with what, exactly? It's pretty much impossible to understand your points. So:

    1. Are you satisfied with the state of legislation in Ireland? Why or why not?
    2. Are you a woman and did you vote on the 8th? If you don't mind, share with us your vote, yes or no, and your reasons why.

    The thread was asking (in a trollish way, by someone masquerading as a woman), whether women voted against repealing the eighth. This was an amazingly dumb question - some did. There are still nuns, for example, in Ireland and I'd take a guess they voted against repealing the 8th


    Unborn is a propaganda term. The term you're looking for, is foetus. Once the foetus is removed from the womb, it becomes a baby. Hope that helps.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,023 ✭✭✭✭ Mr. CooL ICE


    Ok. From my understanding, you think bodily autonomy is irrelevant when being relevant is inconvenient.


    If that's the case, I can see where you're coming from. But I don't understand why the hell you'd vote to repeal the 8th. The 8th took away bodily autonomy, i.e. the very thing you think is irrelevant.


    Each to their own I guess.



  • Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭ heretothere


    Back to what the OP said, "it will be used as a form of contraceptive" that is so unlikely it doesn't even need consideration! (I'm sure there are one or two out there that would, but that is an extreme minority.

    I have had two miscarriages in the past year, yes I know it's different but medically I don't know if it is all that different. I have had a d & c which has to be pretty much the same experience as an abortion operation, going into hospital, under general anesthetic and waking up confused and dazed, possibly needing a few days off work. I know I did anyway I was in physical along with emotional pain (which I can assume most after an abortion would feel even if they did choose it).

    My 2nd one I took no intervention, they offered me tablets to induce labour, which I would think are v similar to abortion pills, but I didn't trust that doc (she messed up blood results) so said I'd wait. I didn't have to wait long. If those pills would have just had a quicker affect of what I went through (which I think is what they do) it would put anyone off wanting them again. Very v painful and fairly traumatic with out being graphic!

    I've had one very good friend in secondary school and two acquaintances have abortions. I only really know about how the friend felt, it was a really hard decision that she didn't take lightly. The others similarly had to make hard decisions (they told me after a few drinks in college) both young and told with out a doubt that they would be single mothers. But the friend anyway I know took contraceptive very very seriously after that! And has gone another 14 years without an unplanned pregnancy, one of those other girls has a baby now (planned) but from the looks of it she went a good decade without another unplanned pregnancy so she also took contraceptive very seriously after.

    I can tell you if the pain of an abortion is even similar to the pain of miscarriage NO ONE would chose it as their form of contraceptive!!! Taking a pill/ using a condom versus regardless of which you choose a procedure which between booking, having, recovery, follow up would take maybe two weeks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,924 ✭✭✭✭ Loafing Oaf


    And the big takeaway from that outline legislation, the thing that most debate focused on, was that abortion would be available without restriction/on demand/request up to 12 weeks of pregnancy. Anyone who was aware of that but genuinely believed there would only be a handful of abortions per year in Ireland under those terms, well I'm afraid 'naive' is far too polite a term for them.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If a woman's right.to have control over her own body (like you as a male do) then why did you vote to repel the 8th?

    and why is termination ok, in your mind in the first trimester?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,023 ✭✭✭✭ Mr. CooL ICE


    Why should I provide an example of anything? You don't even appears to understand what bodily actually is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭ Ulysses1874


    You haven't. When you talk about theft, it's obvious that you have some frame of reference that enables you to link theft with terminating pregnancies in your mind. That's fine, but repeating that is not the same as explaining what it is or why it is.

    Er, I've got the central point. The central point is that those who oppose abortion have a very effective way of carrying out their opposition - by not having one. And when they do that, their opinion and their action are both of the highest importance. Otherwise, they aren't pregnant, they aren't involved in the decision, and their opinion is of no value and in a reasonable and rational world should have no value.

    You also haven't explained what you mean by "protection". You might think you have, but you genuinely haven't. Protection from what?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭ Ulysses1874


    I get what you're saying. Things were pretty grim, but not necessarily that linear. I may be incorrect, but AFAIK the sale of condoms was legal from the foundation of the State to the mid-1940s, for example. There was a general trend of liberalisation of attitudes from the late 1960s through the 1970s, but there was a real (albeit shallow) lurch back to social conservatism in the period after the 1979 Papal visit, which created the atmosphere in which the appalling 8th Amendment could pass.

    In historical terms, the 36th was passed only yesterday or the day before, so I wouldn't take comfort from the apparent absence of a game plan from the likes of Iona. I was there when the 8th was triumphantly passed, and its opponents were completely clueless and rudderless for many years afterwards. It took more than a generation to pass before the possibility of repealing the 8th really opened up, which is why I'm more inclined to look at societal swings and changes from a multi-generational perspective. I wasn't so inclined in the 1980s, but the older I get the more it seems to make sense to me.

    Would Ireland have modernised so quickly were it not for Bishop Eamonn Casey and Rupert Murdoch? That's a question for another thread, or several pints in the local boozer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭ Ulysses1874


    Abortions are rare. in 2020 there were some 6,600 abortions carried out here, and there were some 56,000 births. That means that of those 62,600 pregnancies, about 10.5% were terminated. That's a low number, and it's also no higher than the numbers being carried out before the 36th was passed.

    (I'm not taking account of the significant number of pregnancies that ended in miscarriages. There isn't really a frame of reference to do that.)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭ Ulysses1874


    I'm asking you again. Protection from what? Don't just parrot when you're replying. Think.



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