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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Fair comment about Ireland.

    Regarding Labour polling level with the tories,I'd love to them consigned to history and see the smirk wiped off johnson's gormless face.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Actually the U.K. falls significantly outside the definition of a nation state.

    Ireland is one, France is one. However, U.K. would even often self-describe as multination state.

    It’s genuinely one of the most complex and exceptional definitions of a state as it is neither a unitary nation state, nor is it a properly defined federal nation state and it has multiple simultaneous national identities that are fully exerted and that extend into the constituent parts being treated as separate countries both in how they’re discussed and in many contexts, notably international sport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,148 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    The funny thing about Barnier is that he has always been a bit of a right winger and a conservative - which makes the non stop attacks on him from the British right wing press rather baffling. They're so used to demonising him that they are now perplexed when he comes out with right wing comments as part of his presidential bid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,555 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The ECJ is the defacto Supreme Court of the EU.

    Post edited by Kermit.de.frog on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,700 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Its not a turnaround, but I agree its newsworthy and of interest.

    Of course, as things stand, he seems remarkably unlikely to win so its not that relevant.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,434 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Context, context, context.

    Immigration is a topic. Especially on the right, in France. Barnier is a Republican, his statement is fully in line with his political background and current political situation and positioning in France.

    It's not a generic comment about the EU but a specific one about immigration.

    "We cannot do all this without having regained our legal sovereignty, being permanently threatened by a ruling or a condemnation at the level of the European Court of Justice or the European Convention on Human Rights, or by an interpretation by our own judicial institutions. And this is the reason why ... we have chosen to say that we will propose during the first round of the legislative elections the terms of a referendum that will be organized in September next year, with two objectives: that of a parliamentary control on the quotas of immigrants each year and finally that of recovering through a constitutional shield our freedom of maneuver and interpretation on the subjects related to immigration."

    Usual euroskeptic/europhobe hot air and manipulation to make it into something it's not (including our euroskeptic regulars here on this thread 😉). RT reports on it, which is sufficient to confirm it's a manipulated nonsense (in the way it's presented).



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    It is easy to see Barnier's stance as hypocritical, but it does mean you have to let go of critical thinking. The only way you see it it as hypocritical would be if you would assume that Barnier is the EU and therefor his personal views is equivalent to all of the EU and all of its member nations and also all of the population. Barnier was appointed to negotiate on behalf of the EU. He didn't lead the negotiations because he is the EU.


    It is the same as mistaking Andrew Neil being good at his job by asking tough questions of a politician as him holding that view. It is obvious what his personal and political views are, but it doesn't stop him being good at his job and holding those he agree with to account, or at least not before he went to GB News.


    Or how Rob would be offended if I started equating the inhuman policies of the current government to him personally. That would be dishonest and the same goes for anyone thinking the same with Barnier.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,434 ✭✭✭McGiver


    To add... France has a presidential system. Unlike any other EU country. This is a presidential primary run, on the rather crowded French democratic right space, things like that are part of that process.

    It's mentioned in the Politico article.

    Another French MEP, who didn’t want to be named, said Barnier’s comments were “evidence of the toxic character of the primaries. There are several candidates who deep down believe in the same things … but are obliged to stand out. It ends up in a sausage fair.” 

    The usual propaganda outlets are just jumping on anything they can and bullshítting. Nothing new. The EU is an evil superstate run by Brussels against which the brave nation states rise again and again, and at the same time the EU is going to collapse and all that 😂




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Some first 20. And no marks. It's almost like they're not needed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    It does seem strange there appears to be an increasing number of EU countries unhappy about a perceived overbearing arrogance within brussels, yet it's all 'propaganda'..

    This Reuters link illustrates the growing unrest in a number of countries.(Reuters rated as unbiased and very high factual content on various sites)

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungary-condemns-eu-move-fine-poland-over-judicial-reform-2021-09-09/



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭Christy42


    By number of countries you mean Poland which was being actively fined and Hungary which is insanely right wing and anti a lot of EU policies for a while now. However sure, if they are the countries you want to be aligned with in Europe go for it.


    I mean the article is entirely truthful but your description of it is like those explain a movie plot badly threads you see. Technically correct but misleading.



  • Registered Users Posts: 678 ✭✭✭moon2


    Hungary and Poland have been allies for years, both locked in a series of conflicts with Brussels over core issues including the rule of law and press freedoms and LGBT rights. 

    Maybe you didn't read the full article. This is actually nothing new, as stated by the article you declare to be factual.

    What part implied this was "growing unrest" to you? Also, what's your opinion on the underlying reasons for the current fines?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,967 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Rob, you have a great knack for reading exactly what you want to read from these sources.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,148 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    These type of issues have been going on for years, decades even. In a union of 27 countries and 450m people, you're always going to have countries grumbling about some aspect of the union or the laws or rulings they are unhappy with.

    We in Ireland were complaining bitterly about the ECB's handling of the fallout of the financial crash and bailout ten years ago.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    The article I posted is new,the disagreements may have been rumbling on for a while-either way,there are rumblings of unrest within the EU and when stalwarts like Barnier are critical of Brussels it's not just propaganda imo.

    Quite why Brussels thinks it has any say in any country's laws or press is bizarre anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,148 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    But this is par for the course, Rob. The history of the EEC and EU is filled with stories of huge rows and dissent and some member states feeling cheesed off. It's not something that has only started recently. Hard to see how it could be any different when there are so many competing interests and all shades of the spectrum from right to left are represented.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Because as part of being part of EU you sign up to a common set of rules and requirements and acknowledge that EU has the jurisdiction in the area? Such as oh I don't know, judges not being controlled by politicians, respecting LGBTQ+ rights, human rights, democratic elections etc. But hey, that has to be something completely new that they never heard of when they signed up or something, not like it's been a fundamental part of EU and nothing to do with corrupt politicians getting into power or something. After all, why would EU get involved in something like that since it's a pure trade union, right?

    Article 2 of the Treaty on European Union (TEU): EU values. The EU’s founding values are ‘human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities’

    Article 6 of the TEU: the Charter of Fundamental Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights. Although the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (Article 6(1)) only explicitly refers to the implementation of Union law, the EU’s institutions and bodies and its Member States must also respect the Charter in the EU’s external relations. Countries joining the EU must also comply with the Charter. Article 6(2) requires the EU to accede to the European Convention on Human Rights (for more information, please refer to fact sheet 4.1.2 on the Charter of Fundamental Rights);

    This is evident of course in the initiative to establish the Council of Europe in 1949, within which the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (ECHR) was adopted in Rome in 1950, as a bulwark against any possible slide back in the direction of the human rights horrors committed during the war. But this also transpires from the post-war debates and the proposals in favor of establishing a political, federal-like organization, between France, West Germany, Italy and the Benelux countries. This effort, which took off with the Schuman declaration of 1950, and the establishment of the European Carbon and Steel Community (ECSC) by the Treaty of Paris in 1951, had immediately a clear human rights dimension. In particular, as Grainne de Búrca has recently explained, the importance of the protection of fundamental rights for the founding generation emerges from the early attempts to endow the new Europe with a human rights instrument, and to ensure a formal connection between the EU and the just-enacted ECHR [2]. The draft Treaty establishing the European Political Community (EPC), drafted in 1952-53 as a follow-up of the ESCS, specifically provided that the ECHR would become an integral part of the basic law of the EPC [3]. In the work of the drafting committee, moreover, it was clearly assumed that the instruments of human rights protection being created would operate both vis-à-vis the public authorities of the Community, and vis-à-vis the states, hence ensuring respect for common values also at the national level [4].This fact challenges the widespread view that the process of European integration was initially concerned only with free markets, and proves how instead human rights shaped the early debates about the future set-up of the EU already in the 1950s [5].

    Taken from the summary of this white paper.

    But as I wrote; completely new idea, must have been snuck in hidden or something out of the blue on the countries involved and has not been there since the creation of the original union or something.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭fash


    When it reaches the level of discontent and rumblings of unrest that exist in Scotland or Northern Ireland regarding remaining a part of the English empire, please let us know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,691 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    If everyone in the EU agreed 100% all the time the usual suspects like Rob would be on here to use that as evidence of a conspiracy



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,148 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    I think what is really happening is that the Brexit press has ramped up stories of dissent and arguments within the EU (as they are hoping and praying for the collapse of the union of course). But such dissent and rows have been going on for decades, there's nothing remotely unusual about them.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They have always done that though. Every minor dispute or argument within the EU = imminent collapse.

    The problem now is there’s an element within the Brexit worldview that comes from a position of not just wanting the UK out of the EU, but rather of projecting hatred towards the EU and wanting to smash up institutions they’ve no longer anything to do with.

    There’s also the perpetual victimhood line that’s also getting as bad as: “OMG You hurt me when I kicked your house. Your bricks are unreasonably hard!!”

    If that’s projected by serious politicians in the UK, I could see the relationship becoming very frosty in the medium term.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,033 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Due to the HGV driver shortage, the government have announced a number of changes in the testing system to help free up testers numbers and get HGV drivers licenced. These include:

    • Car drivers now do not need to pass a test to drive a car plus a trailer
    • Drivers will only need to take 1 test to drive both a rigid and articulated lorry, rather than having to take 2 separate tests (spaced 3 weeks apart)
    • HGV tests will be made shorter, with the reversing exercise element removed and the uncoupling and recoupling exercise for trailer tests removed - apparently these will be tested separately by a third party
    • HGV drivers will no longer have to get a licence for a smaller vehicle before seeking a HGV licence

    Sure, what could possibly go wrong? 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    You don't have to show you can reverse, wtf, that will be a mess.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,691 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Don't worry Boris will get those shelves stocked and as a bonus he will also "decrease the surplus population"



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Surely, the EU do not have to recognise these new licences?

    Wil insurance companies accept these dud drivers?



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,691 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    The insurance companies will probably just ramp up the price which will then be another price hike on the shelves



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,856 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    No the EU do not, in fact with such a dangerous drop in standards by these proposals, any British commercial driver with a licence issued after X date, should be turned around at any EU/EEA border.

    There should be zero tolerance of bringing these risks onto our roads.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Good lord that all sounds utterly insane and badly thought out. I honestly thought the government might just throw money and pay over the market rate for drivers - not this. It's akin to solving a pilot shortage by fasktracking passenger jet licenses after a couple of lessons in a Cessna.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,691 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Will the Irish government have the guts to do this though. It would surely be a massive problem here if UK truck drivers can't deliver



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Surely it will only the newly tested HGV drivers that would be refused, so no problem. Besides, it will be an EU directive to disqualify licences issued after a certain date.



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