Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Akrasia

My 94 year old granny has a license to drive an Arctic without ever taking a test

Irish people can’t really point fingers at the UK for dropping standards to get over a shortage of testing infrastructure

back then there were 2 deaths a day on Irish roads do it was a horrifically irresponsible thing to do and certainly cost lives over the years

That said, if Ireland weren’t EU members before the amnesty there is zero chance that those licenses would have been recognized in the EU

The UK are going backwards

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117881343#Comment_117881343

Can a 94 year old granny get a license today without a test. No she can't so it's not the same thing really.

Also to drive commercially youelr granny would need to do tests including a health check and eye test

Sam Russell

I doubt your granny at 94 years old has a licence to drive an HGV as it requires ongoing training, and an additional test to get an HGV. Also, at 94, she would need a compliant doctor to certify her as competent to drive a car with adequate eyesight and that is just to drive a car, and such certification is an annual requirement.

HGV licences also require on-going training each year. I doubt that she attends the courses. Even PSV licences are hard to hang onto after 70 years of age.

Spoofing again.

.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117881312#Comment_117881312

Well then as I always say thank god for them "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels telling us what to do"

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117881075#Comment_117881075

As ever, the Brexiteers don't appear to have thought things through. There's no way barely trained drivers with dodgy HGV licences from a third country would be allowed onto EU roads.

That sounds extremely safe. Hopefully we don't wave them through. Those rules will also apply in Northern Ireland. I don't fancy unqualified drivers with heavy vehicles and little experience.

RobMc59

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117881644#Comment_117881644

Is the hgv test the same in every EU country?The car driving test is easier to pass in some EU countries and unless there's a standard EU hgv test the UK changing their criteria isn't that controversial.Although as someone with a class 2 hgv license,I'd question the intention not to include reversing in the test.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117881109#Comment_117881109

As if these Tories wanted such people to be paid more. Nah, much easier to just lower the standards.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882002#Comment_117882002

As far as I know, recognition of non EU licenses is entirely at the discretion of the individual member states. But the UK could run into serious problems with this one.....it's far from certain that any member countries would be relaxed about allowing very inexperienced HGV drivers onto their roads.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882002#Comment_117882002

Don't know but the UK government is claiming their changes as a great benefit directly linked to Brexit in the link that was posted earlier.

This new legislation is changing previous EU regulations which the UK is no longer obliged to use.

Was reading something yesterday about UK planning to replace their implementation of GDPR with a new post Brexit "improved" (i.e. gutted) version.

It will be very interesting to see how much of that type of deregulation they can get the EU to swallow without endangering the wonderful "TCA" agreement.

I think they feel they can push the envelope quite far.

They may hit a very severe shock on GDPR. That's a highly controversial issue in some countries and there are multiple cases running almost continuously to define better privacy rights.

It would do huge damage to UK services if they couldn't process EU citizens' data anymore. That could have really profound implications economically, far more so than all this stuff about fish and chips.

There's no public or political appetite in most EU countries to roll back on that. I mean even Ireland and a few others are being hammered for our relatively easy going interpretation of GDPR for multinationals like Facebook.

If they think they're going to operate as a giant offshore regulatory haven for companies to side step GDPR they've another thing coming.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882257#Comment_117882257

I think that is exactly what they believe, that they can have a much more "US like" system with a greater proportion of laws and regulations tilted to desires of companies/wealthy interests and still keep the access that they have retained to the EU markets and customers etc. with the TCA agreement.

On GDPR I agree that there's no public appetite to roll it back, and it is a very sensitive issue. However IMO Ireland has stymied it by neglect. I think our government and the regulator here (which is also the lead regulator for the whole of the EU in most instances) are edit: very deferential to the US technology MNCs (and I suppose even a Chinese/CCP MNC (?!) now TikTok's EU base is located here too). We've largely gotten away with that so far - 3 years and counting. The very recent fine for Facebook (Whatsapp) + other EU countries forcing it to be increased to multiples of what the Irish DPC wanted was the first time that failed, and I think there is still an appeal to come.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/record-225m-fine-imposed-on-whatsapp-by-irish-regulator-for-severe-breaches-of-privacy-law-1.4663042

I wouldn't be so confident the UK can't manage it (gut GDPR and still retain alot of ability to provide services to EU located customers + handle data for them in the UK). I'd say the large US tech companies and indeed the US itself would be quite pleased to see UK govt. open another chink in GDPR in this way and they have us (i.e. Ireland) inside the tent as a willing ally to blunt any EU reaction to it.

edit: Sorry, I suppose all that is somewhat cynical/negative.😟I hope it doesn't work out like that.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117881609#Comment_117881609

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117881609#Comment_117881609

I had my tongue in my cheek with that post, my point was that the 1979 drivers license amnesty meant we should be careful throwing stones while in living in glass houses

in reality, the 70s being almost a half century ago was like the Wild West in vehicle safety and Britain rolling back standards is completely unacceptable in the modern age.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882257#Comment_117882257

Yep. Diverging from GDPR would absolutely torpedo the UK services industry. It would also severely harm Irish companies who want to trade services on the UK

It could be a boon for data center operators as companies would need to store customer data for any UK based clients separately to EU based clients, but the consumer will pay for these increased inefficiencies

It would be a massive mess here as a lot of Irish data also transits UK networks. For example until very recently we had no direct fibre to the continent. We had a lot to North America though. However, that's changed a bit as we've both connectivity into France and Scandinavia (running over the top of the UK as a branch into Icelandic and transatlantic connections)

There are lots of scenarios where Irish data is processed on UK systems though and plenty of integration.

It likely wouldn't be an issue for Irish firms hosting UK data, if our data protection standards remain higher then theirs, but it depends on what they did politically too and it would potentially be very disruptive.

My concern is the UK government won't comprehend how disruptive it might be and will just go head first into it, trying to replicate the US lax data protection.

Actually, even within the USA things are changing. The California data protection laws in their CCPA are increasingly similar to some of the provisions in GDPR.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882472#Comment_117882472

It would mean we have to separate EU citizens data from UK data. Because as data processors, We could not reasonably assume that EU citizens personal data would not be mishandled if it was processed within a UK jurisdiction

The solution to this (temporarily) is to have a ‘standard contractual clause’ directly between the data processor and the data controller which emulates GDPR but this won’t work long term because the UK will almost certainly allow corporations to snoop private data to mirror US practices and no SCC would protect EU citizens data from this level of risk

Peregrinus

Rob,

When challenged on this:

"It does seem strange there appears to be an increasing number of EU countries unhappy about a perceived overbearing arrogance within brussels, yet it's all 'propaganda'..."

you justify it with this:

"The article I posted is new,the disagreements may have been rumbling on for a while-either way, there are rumblings of unrest within the EU and when stalwarts like Barnier are critical of Brussels it's not just propaganda imo."

You're tacitly conceding that there isn't an increasing number of countries unhappy with the EU; just an increasing number of articles about the long-standing and entirely normal phenomenon of tensions between Brussels and the member state governments. But you don't think the increasing number of articles about issues that are not especially new might be part of a propaganda effort?

There's a guy on the web who keeps a tally of the Daily Express articles whose headlines begin "EU in crisis" . . .". He's up to, I think, 478 now, and he only started at the beginning of last year. And just two days ago they ran an article with the headline "EU stunned as member state breaks cover to admit 'huge benefits' of EU exit". The story was about the growing number of British professionals who are basing their business in Estonia, rather than the UK. The "huge benefits", it turns out, are benefits to Estonia, not the UK. And nothing in the story supported or even referred to the claim that Estonia was "breaking cover" by celebrating the substantial additional tax revenue they get from these businesses, or that the EU was "stunned" to discover that Brexit was leading to the relocation of business from the UK to the EU. This was widely predicted; Brexiters at the time denounced the predictions as 'Project Fear', but now that they have been proven correct the Express wants you to think that they are a "huge benefit" of Brexit.

Yes, Rob, there is a propaganda effort going on to try to vindicate Brexiter delusions. How can you not have noticed this?

"Ian McIntosh, CEO of RED Driver Training, explained: “No doubt stung by negative media coverage of empty supermarket shelves, and with driver shortages impacting upon freight distribution in the UK, the Government is seemingly panicked into being seen to do something, rather than actually thinking through the issues these proposals raise.

“For example, removing the need for an additional test for B+E entitlement for drivers to be able to drive car and van trailer combinations is a dangerous step backwards. It will expose more businesses, their employees and other road users to increased risk.”

Figures from the DVSA (Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency) show that the national pass rate for B+E driving tests was 69.6% in 2019/20 and only 58% for 2020/21. In other words, between 30-42% of people taking this test are unable to demonstrate the minimum standard of driving and competence to tow loaded trailers on the road on at least their first attempt.

Removing elements of the test seems shortsighted.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117883199#Comment_117883199

I read that the elements of the test to be dropped include the reversing exercise, and my first thought was: this is bizarre. A HGV driver who cannot competently and safely operate the vehicle in reverse is worse than useless; this is a fundamental skill. Shortages in supermarkets are not going to be alleviated by commissioning drivers who cannot reverse an articulated lorry up to a loading bay.

But in fact they're not dropping this element completely. It - and several other key elements - are to be "tested separately by a third party". The idea is that this will mean the test administered by the DoT examiner will take less time, and therefore he will be able to do more tests each day.

The problem with this thinking is that, while the test may take less time for the examiner, it will take more time for the driver. He now has to make, and travel for, two different appointments, with two different people, at two different times/dates, at two different places. Since the candidate has to provide the vehicle for the test, he also has the expense of providing a vehicle on two days, rather than on one, doubling the amount of time for which a serviceable HGV has to be unavailable for service, because it is being used in a test. And if the candidate is hiring the vehicle, this will be a significant expense to him.

In short, the focus here seem to be on reducing the cost/burden of the test to the government, rather than reducing the cost/burden to the road transport industry, or to aspiring HGV drivers. I'm not seeing how this is going to make a huge difference to the shortage of drivers.

pixelburp

Dropping the need to reverse seems to smell of a layman's decision that focused on trucks on the motorways, moving at speed, as opposed to reaching their destinations and the narrow yards or depots they arrive at. While the 3rd party part feels incredibly vague in the manner that it'll be sorted later, or not at all . Admittedly I know next to zero about haulage so maybe someone can clarify or enlighten but as Peregrinus above, I'd have thought the ability to reverse a HGV would be a critical part of efficiently doing one's job.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117883269#Comment_117883269

Sorry @Peregrinus but I think you're far to generous in your assessment here. This has nothing to do with freeing up time for DoT to do more tests etc. as that could have been resolved by simply increasing the number of examiners in the DoT; I can only see two reasons and they are tied together. First it lets them reduce the DoT budget ("Your responsibilities have been reduced and we're adjusting your budget accordingly") to try to help cover the hole in the budget without announcement. Secondly by giving it to private companies to do they can make sure the government contract goes to one of their Tory party donating friends as per previous government contract handling. I don't think it has anything to do with actually trying to improve the actual situation and it is simply an opportunity for more buddy contracts for cash under the table and that would be far more in line with how the government has acted historically as well.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117880938#Comment_117880938

Good god, those new testing rules are insane. No company is gonna be willing to pay the inevitable and understandable obscene insurance for a driver who passes under that "testing regime" and as others have pointed out good luck getting international recognition for license parity.

The whole thing stinks of "We must do something, this is something, lets do this!"

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117883389#Comment_117883389

It looks like an “opportunity to create opportunities”, to me.

As much in the sense of public budgetary savings noted by Peregrinus, as VIP contracts without tender for bungs noted by Nody, not forgetting HGV driver offer fragmentation/tiering (HGV drivers qualified under the old regime warranting a premium, ‘new’ HGV drivers commoditised, you pays your money you takes your chances) with profiteering avenues for agencies either way - and the lambda UK citizen ever further in hock for the lot.

I’m really interested to see the EU27’s regulatory counterweight to these new HGV licenses.

Sam Russell

The EU would have to distinguish between HGV licences issued under the new, reduced, criteria and licence renewals of older licences.

Of course, they could just refuse to recognise UK HGV licences all together, or ones issued or renewed after the appropriate date.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117883354#Comment_117883354

Cornwall reminds me a lot of Wales. Lots of Brexity type immigrants from the rest of England turning it into a Tory and Brexiteer stronghold (to the detriment of the locals).

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117884585#Comment_117884585

It's noteworthy that, for Cornwall at least, these immigrants tend to be wealthy, older and either own a holiday home there or have retired so they're unlikely to experience the effects of the economic downturn they voted for. Friend of mine here is Cornish and she regularly fulminates about her county's vote in 2016.

road_high

Noticed in my local TK maxx, they don’t seem to be stocking the limited food items like biscuits and coffee etc anymore? I know they are an American company but the Irish arm appears to be an offshoot of the U.K. one so is this due to brexit or something short term?

ancapailldorcha

Actually noticed a shortage of chicken at Asda here in London yesterday. It's been a while but yesterday was the first time it felt quite pronounced. The prospect of this being exacerbated come October is not a welcome one.

Strazdas

There was an interesting article by Jeremy Warner in the Telegraph at the weekend where he admits the Tory / Johnson version of Brexit has been a catastrophic failure.

"Five hour, Covid-spreading queues at passport control, empty supermarket shelves, mountainous red tape when trading with Europe, big increases in business and personal taxes, including – unforgivably – 50 per cent marginal rates of taxation among some of the relatively young when taking account of student loan repayments, another sticking plaster solution to rising health and social care costs, more highly paid bureaucrats to “manage” the extra spending, apparent impotence in the face of a renewed onslaught of illegal migration – welcome to “Global Britain”."

The whole article is in this vein. Possibly the first time a Telegraph writer has broken ranks and admitted that the entirety of Brexit has failed.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117884585#Comment_117884585

Also not a lot there for young locals to stay and offset that vote. It was only about 5 years ago that Truro college became a University up until then Cornwall was the only county without a Uni.

It's very noticable when your down there that most parts of the West Country suffer from a savage brain drain. Places like Tor bay look like giant retirement villages at times and I've never seen a place with so many mobility equipment shops and houses kitted out for accessibility