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Would you pay more?

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  • 08-09-2021 8:48pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭


    Was thinking recently about the system in place for licences.

    Does the fee of €80 per 3 years, actually cover the cost of running the system. An if not, would you be willing to pay more for a more consistent service?



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Comments

  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What system? What service? What do you get for your 80 euro other than a piece of paper?



  • Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    Really? A piece of paper?

    Civilian staff/ Gardai occupied outside of normal duties, character checks, inspecting safes, collecting paperwork from rfd's, paper, postage, machine to make licences etc etc Doesn't come without a price.

    I argue, a cost analysis/ FOI would suggest it actually costs the state.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    I would strongly argue that with the amount we pay for everything in Ireland, and the high taxes too that we shouldn't have to pay anything for this "service" that is so benevolently provided by the state. We already pay through the nose for other public services which then don't have an additional cost, so why should this?


    Not that it really is benevolently provided that is, nor is there any alternative, accountability(that doesn't cost you another arm and a leg in court), no appeals(except through said expensive court process), consistency(between district or between super and c-super either sometimes), etc.

    Considering how firearms licencing is administered here compared to how much we pay per licence I would argue that we shouldn't be paying one red cent.


    I and many others have been saddled with firearms I cannot access while I wait months longer than the legal maximum wait time for renewals, let alone applications, and given that the system here licences not just the person, but the person and the firearm, I think the "service" provided doesn't warrant paying for. Not to mention the brow-beating that regularly occurs in AGS firearms interviews.


    Example, if I went to the private sector and ordered something for €80, that only involved paperwork being essentially rubber stamped, would I be willing to wait a week for it?

    Maybe.

    A month? Less likely.

    3+ months? No chance.


    Imagine the uproar if drivers licences or passports were granted like firearms licences are, with the same recourses.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,544 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    No, in short.


    There are approximately 155,000 people licensed, but licensing approx. 225,000 firearms at €80 a go. That is €18 Million every three years or €6 Million per year in revenue from licensing. AGS do all the background stuff and An Post the processing. If you break down the €6 Million per year among the 26 counties (evenly for the ske of keeping it simple) then it allocates just under a quarter of a million, per county, per year. Allowing for a large salary of almost €60,000 per year for 4 people.


    Now obviously there is also a cost for printing, CPOs, etc. however even allowing for €80,000 a year, per county, for administration/printing, etc. that leaves €150,000 for salaries. So averaging it at €50,000 per year that is three people (AGS) paid for the year.


    As the CPO covers more than one county there is a surplus in the salaries being paid, and with some counties/districts not having FOs at all or only the one then it either leaves another surplus or breaks even.


    In short the price is as much as it needs to be. If the price went up I'd like to see a better license (plastic card with all firearms listed and possibly even a swipe function/chip and pin) to buy ammo, etc. All that information is then uploaded into a new PULSE system which has been complete gutted and rebuilt fromt he ground up and is fit for purpose which even the Garda inspectorate has said needs done, badly.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭BSA International


    They don't need to think of ways to do us over. Posts like this do it for them ......... Answer to question ....... NO !



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,994 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    IF and that's a very big if...

    The system was modernised, taken out of AGS control,bar background checking of applicants for criminality, and then made a SHALL ISSUE within a mandated timeframe of 30 working days, and the license is brought into the line of five years, and made into an old school plastic card that has to work by chip and pin[No RIFID thanks, too easily hacked] that allows you to do like for like substitutions at a dealer level without a vast amount of paperwork then yes it could be considered...

    However I don't think we have to dream too much on this, our dear leaders in Brussels are already making the first encroachments on this by demanding EUROPOL has access to national police forces firearms licenses databases.

    But of course, this is as likely as the first commercial Saudi pig farm opening any time soon,and the chances of the Govt making a swine's rear end of the matter. So frankly...NO!

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 880 ✭✭✭Wadi14


    Do you honestly think by paying more the system would get better ? the Garda processing your application who might be in the unmanned rural station for a couple of hours a week still will get paid the same as he did before. Its not the price that we pay for a license that is slowing the process up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    The Northern Ireland system, costs more to run than it receives in fees.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Should we start charging people more than €100 for rocking up to A&E without a doctors letter or life threatening injury? Especially if they call an ambulance, then you are paying for the ambulance staff, nurses, doctors, admin, cleaners and porters all for €100 (when they have a sore finger).



  • Registered Users Posts: 265 ✭✭judestynes




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  • Registered Users Posts: 8 Barber2021


    having been told earlier this week that my application, for a substitution of one 12g for another, was in fact stuck between 2 other summons documents for the last 4 weeks......no i wont pay more.


    i cant imagine that there is more than a half hours work in the administration of an application.....80 for an hours work plus print and post is plenty.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,544 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I'd love to see a proper breakdown of the numbers on that and why it costs so much, if what you say is true. Actually can you cite the source for that claim?

    Population of Ireland (only in the news the other) is just over 5 million for the first time in hundred(s) of years. Population of Northern Ireland is 1.885 Million. So we have 2.65 times the population.

    According to the PNSI there are 153,459 registered firearms in Northern Ireland "over" and estimated 100,000 people. So that is an ownership rate of 5.3%. Irelands is 3.25% approx with (at last count) 225,000 firearms "over" 150,000 licensed persons.

    Northern Ireland certificate costs £98 (€115) but over 5 years. A variantion (our version of a substitution I believe) costs £30 (€35). Their license lasts 5 years so 40% longer, but they pay 35% more for it so in essence we're the same in terms of cost for a license, but the substitution here is free.

    The Northern system receives £15,000,000 (€17.6 million) per 5 years in license fees and I don't have access to the data on the monies raised through variations or other charges. Lets call it a million over the 5 years in variations fees. That would leave it at around 6,000 per year in "subs". So the Northern system generates appox. £16,000,000 (€18.8 Million Euro) every 5 years or £3.2 (€3.75) million per year.


    • Ireland generates €6 million per year with a larger shooting community of 150,000 people with 225,000 licenses.
    • Norhtern Ireland generates £3.25 (€3.75) million with 100,000 people and 153459 license over 5 years.
    • If you "level" the population, costs etc in Northern Ireland compared to IReland on a per head/capita then Northern Ireland would generate £8,600,000 per year or €9,600,000 per year with the same number of licenses.


    Conclusion - So Northern Ireland would generate over 35% more in revenue from licensing fees than Ireland based on per head capita. As it stands they generate the same revenue as Ireland with a 35% reduced revenue stream (smaller shooting community) and they claim it is not paying for itself? I find it hard to believe to be honest.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,994 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Suggesting that 90 days are needed to come to a decision already suggests a grossly inefficient system when handling these applications.I cant think of any other licensing requirement that takes so long anywhere else in Ireland or Europe.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If it costs the state, then the state should get it's arse in gear, and overhaul/revamp so it doesn't cost the state.

    OT, but its the same with the TV License, If there is one TV License inspector per county, earning 40k a year(very conservative estimate), then it costs 1.04 Million a year to "inspect" TV Licenses. At 160 per TV license, 6,500 people have to buy a TV License, just to pay for the inspection. Thats before you get onto Joe Duffy's salary. A very wasteful way of doing it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    error



  • Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭slipperyox




  • Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭BSA International


    The Guardian......enough said.

    They use "weapons" which tells us what their attitude to firearms is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    The guardian, enough said? It was a FOI reprint.


    Target shooters use firearms, hunters use firearm /weapons. what's the issue?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,544 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Ten year old article which mentions nothing about costs vs revenue.


    Slipperyfox - Target shooters use firearms, hunters use firearm /weapons. what's the issue?

    We don't use weapons, we use firearms. We have a firearms act and a firearms license. The word weapon is inflamatory and a misnomer for sporting firearms.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    You need to read article again, 19th line down from "The detail".

    The full FOI is available for download in any event.


    Regardless of your euphemisms, the Oxford contains definition of the word "weapon" inflammatory or not. The dead fox was harmed and physically damaged.


    Add prefixes, eg "offensive weapon" then you got a different kettle of fish.


    In the meantime, judging from the responses on here, by my OP, I guess the status quo and moaning continues regarding the system.🤣😜



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,544 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Slipperyfox - You need to read article again, 19th line down from "The detail".

    It says: "The lower age limit is now 16 and it currently costs the PSNI more to run the licensing scheme than they recover in fees." Then nothing. No data, no breakdown of costs vs revenue, etc. So I'll say it again. The article is outdated and explains nothingbar making an unfounded/unproven assertment.

    Slipperyfox - Regardless of your euphemisms

    Its not "my" anything. Its English, what we have, what is in law and yes some "PR" thrown in for good measure.

    • Weapon: a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage
    • Firearm: a rifle, pistol, or other portable gun.

    Slipperyfox - In the meantime, judging from the responses on here, by my OP, I guess the status quo and moaning continues regarding the system.

    Are you happy with the system? Are you happy that the promises made in 2009 were never followed through on? As for "moaning on here", well we're in good company because the Garda Inspectorate has said that the system is wholly outdated and not fit for purpose. Not just the firearm section either, but all of PULSE. So its not moaning to be moaning, but with cause and proof from the least biased soruce there can be.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    Point 1:

    You still didn't download the full FOI.,

    outdated? all members on here give me cash and I'll get a more recent one? Its a starting point regardless, and getting off topic if its a little old.


    point 2: subjective, and semantics. though I would now add that damage to paper targets constitutes the use of a weapon, as the paper is damaged.😜


    point 3: Am I happy with the system? No. This is why I posted a possible solution. Unlike the masses who say nothing, moan, but then attack a proposal.

    Kinda sorry I bothered posting now frankly.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,544 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Slipperyfox - Point 1: You still didn't download the full FOI.,

    You made the assersion so the onus is on you to provide data. If you have the full FOI then post it. If you have other data then post it. Its not up to me, or anyone else, to support your point. If it exists, the data, then post it. Its not that I don't believe you, its that I asked for numbers as I don't see how the revenue form license fees is not enough to maintain a firearms database when, per head of capita, Northern Ireland appears to generate the same revenue as the South.

    Slipperyfox - outdated?

    Yes, by almost ten years.

    Slipperyfox - all members on here give me cash and I'll get a more recent one?

    Again, the onus is on you to privide supprting data/arguments for your point. Not on me or anyone else to do it for you.

    Slipperyfox -  Its a starting point regardless, and getting off topic if its a little old.

    Starting point for what? As for off topic, not at all. The discusssion on cost/benefit while pertaining to the South has relevancy to the north given your point about what it costs to run such a system. Its not about who is right because I'm not arguing you're wrong. However the PSNI system is run, its not ours and they [Northern Gun owners] pay more for licenses than we do, but over the longer temr of their license it works out the same as our three year license. So could be argued its very relevant. We won't know until we have data.

    Slipperyfox - subjective, and semantics. though I would now add that damage to paper targets constitutes the use of a weapon, as the paper is damaged

    If the targets can sue then I'd agree, but until then we use the term firearm.

    Slipperyfox - Am I happy with the system? No. This is why I posted a possible solution.

    Its not a solution, to throw more money at something. It'd be different if the revenue from license fees went directly into licensing, but it doesn't.

    Slipperyfox - Unlike the masses who say nothing, moan, but then attack a proposal.

    Moaning is saying something. 😁 You did not offer a proposal, you suggested throwing more money into the exchequer. Nothing more. Lobbying/petitioning for licensing monies to go directly into firearm licensing, an updated PULSE registry, new license format (credit card type), RFD interface with immediate substitutions changed on PULSE while at the RFD, one license with mulitple firearms listed on the license, etc. They're proposals and if they cost a little more then I'd be open to listening to arguments on why the license fee should/would be increased however more money for the same crap, no thanks.

    Slipperyfox - Kinda sorry I bothered posting now frankly.

    Debate, difference of opinion, and even arguments are vital for finding all the pros and cons of a point. Attacking and defending the opposing view points will root out whether something has merit or not. If it has it'll stand up to scrutiny, and if not then well done for the effort regardless and keep at it. Not every idea is a winner but it only takes one [good idea] to make a diffference.


    Lastly, and this is not a personal attack, if you wanted a load of "yes" replies without debate, rebuttal or argument then a blog is more the way to go. Hell, even if you were right you'll still get an argument from someone saying you're wrong. Joys of the interweb.



    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,994 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    This pic should be stickied on the top of the OT thread!!!🤣

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭keith s


    " Was thinking recently about the system in place for licenses"


    Yeah, basically it's a sh1T3 system, where:

    Turnarounds on application times and decisions are based on your location and the station you submit to.

    Everybody is not exactly treated the same.

    One person can be granted x amount of rounds, when (with the same criteria) another person is denied this amount.

    Stories recently of issues being granted a moderator.

    I know one lad waited over 6 months for a substation (one 22lr to another 22lr) .

    That's 6 MONTHS, where he had to hand in the first rifle while waiting on the application to be approved.

    In fairness I think most of the FAO's have been lumped with an extra title and in turn more work, on top of their normal duties and some, may have no more interest in firearms than I do in crochet hooks!

    With all the flaws that the current system does have, a new system would need to be carefully considered.

    The NDLS car license system and process is standard and much more efficient, if you are banned or need glasses or have endorsements, that can be checked in no time at all. But, a centralized system could have some other issues, if you look at the amount of cyber attacks this year (and they are on the rise) - The HSE probably getting the most airtime this year, but by no means the only victim. If the NDLS database was hacked it might revile a lot of PII, but if a firearms owners database was hacked, it could pose more serious concerns. A recent breach in a UK based site hit the news recently and I'm sure a lot of the users now regret using that site.


    So yes, the system in place can be slow and unfair based on where you reside and I do not think anyone here has a problem with that point.

    I think it's the fact that you then jumped straight to a proposal of paying more money, that people would take issue with.

    Like, why would more money automatically fix it? A new system would of course cost money, but it would not (SHOULD DEFINITLY NOT), add to the day to day effort.

    A better system would save time and reduce the effort and redundant tasks needed to accomplish the process.

    While I might call up Sky or Virgin and complain if my broadband is slow this week, I would never start that conversation with: "Hey lads if I throw more money at you, will you take a look.. No, I would get on to them and complain and tell them that I am paying for a service that is not getting delivered as promised.

    If they replied to say that they are understaffed or their system is in rag order, again I would not say, Ah jaysus sorry to hear that, would it help if you charged me more money, or better still if I proposed that every customer will pay them more money.


    For my two cents on using Firearm vs Weapon:

    A lad on the radio recently referred to duck shooting as a bloodbath, he did so to stress his view and embed an image in the minds of the listeners of the program.

    I have never looked up the difference so I cannot tell for sure if it's correct, but (to me at least) a Weapon paints a picture in my mind of anything that is used against someone to hurt or kill; and while you may well kill duck or damage paper, I feel the term firearm is a more appropriate term to use, if you are licensed and acting in a legal capacity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    I'll end with this.

    I'm having a lot more constructive feedback, in a more active forum than this graveyard, so I'll focus my attention there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭BSA International


    Guardian is left wing borderline tabloid trash.



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭solarwinds


    Oh dear, someone is taking their ball and going home.

    Would I pay more for an outdated broken system, where any interaction I have with the people running it treat me like a nut job or criminal for having a past time that involves a firearm, NO I definitely would not.

    Every year without fail the Government throws (pre covid) hundreds of millions extra into the health service outside of their annual budget which increases by hundreds of millions every year any way. Would you honestly say that the service provided was improving, I for one would not but I gather you would have a different attitude.

    On this outdated platform you asked a question and got answers, some good suggestions and a debate on your ill thought out idea. To me that is the point of asking a question on a public forum with like minded individuals involved in the sport. It is a pity you cannot take constructive criticism as the contributors here are a wealth of knowledge. But probably best you stay on the AGS members forum where all have agreed with your suggestion of give them more money.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭minktrapper


    225,000 firearms at €80 a go. That is €18 Million every three years or €6 Million per year in revenue from licensing.

    More commonly known as a "licence" to print money. If you will excuse the pun. Just as well the rod licence never came in. How could it cost €6,000,000 a year to print a few bits and pieces on a piece of paper. Think about it. €6 million.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭deerhunter1




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