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The Irish protocol.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,197 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The problem with this analysis is that removing the majority of the Irish sea checks, without more, is not common sense.

    The checks are not there for fun. They are there to ensure that goods entering NI are also qualified for entry into the SM, so that there is no need for border controls between NI and the SM. The reason the parties committed to the Irish sea checks in the first place is their shared recognition that something was needed to protect against this risk, plus the UK's unilateral decision that they preferred this mechanism to any other.

    For these reasons, a proposal for removing the majority of the checks is not going to be entertained unless accompanied by proposals for alternative mechanisms that will ensure that non-qualified goods do not enter the SM via NI. If agreement is to be reached, the EU has to be persuaded that the new mechanisms will be effective and that the UK will not - for what would be the third time - agree to mechanisms and then change its mind about what it has agreed to.

    The people advancing proposals to remove checks know all this. We can conclude that anyone advancing such a proposal, and not coupling it with proposals for practicable, credible, effective new mechanisms and a recognition that the UK must demonstrate that it can be relied upon to operate them is either pretty dim, or is not acting in good faith.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,245 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Would this be coming from the same 'source' as the 'heavy questioning' of a poll Unionism didn't like came from? 😁

    Remember, you were also told the EU will facilitate and hold back for as long as is reasonably possible, then act. 'Giving somebody enough rope' it would be called about here. So it would be premature to say that those predicting punishment were wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭micosoft


    That's objectively untrue. The reality was British Civil Servants got on with getting the British agenda through the EU with enormous success and recognising how successful the EU was for the UK. It was highly productive. The issue was that British politicians & media in the UK used the EU as a whipping boy for domestic politics. The "troublemakers" was an invention of British politicians and Media. I think that really demonstrates the problem with UK politics that led to Brexit and the disastrous outcome. An even better example is Unionists who have created some sort of bogeyman out of the EU to "demonstrate" loyalty to people who have no loyalty to them (Kate Hoey!) even though the EU had almost settled the NI question.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Did I hear Donaldson complaining about Amazon deliveries?



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,245 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jeffery gives into the pressure of an electoral hammering and aligns with the TUV.

    Sir Jeffrey Donaldson MP, DUP leader: “I say not as a threat, but as a matter of political reality that our political institutions will not survive a failure to resolve the problems that the protocol has created. Neither will they survive an indefinite ‘stand still’ period…”



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Language being reported from Eu changing dramatically up here on bbc now.

    they are saying that fundamental changes cannot happen by now taking about changes



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭ittakestwo




  • Registered Users Posts: 17,762 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    You keep making these claims about how the EU are changing their tune and open to discussing changes outside what the protocol already allows but you never provide anything to back them up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    *citation needed*

    Funny these sources you always note (totally at odds with what is being reported everywhere else) never come with a link to the source. As usual, I suspect, 'on the BBC' will turn out to be Nolan again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,011 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    I read that Donaldson wants to collapse stormont if the protocol doesn't change. He said they need a new democratic mandate. I don't understand, they can have all the democratic elections they want, it won't change the UK's policy, similarly the NI mandate to stay in the EU didn't affect the UK's decision to leave. The devolved NI government does not have the power to change the protocol so why refresh it? How does that help?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 67,245 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    At best, vote orientated bluster (DUP afraid of getting wiped out) and at worst, strategic suicide in the vein of previous strategy.

    Hard to know which one it is...maybe a combination of both.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Did the electorate give them a mandate to pursue an exit from the EU? The DUP only do things to suit their own selfish bigoted agenda!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    More bizarre behaviour from the DUP. If they collapse stormont then it is rule from London who were the ones who signed the Protocol. The North makes up about 2.5% of the UK population so if it is rule from London then these Irish issues will just be drowned out by English issues and the Protocol will disappear from the political spectrum.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    More bizarre behaviour from the DUP. If they collapse stormont then it is rule from London who were the ones who signed the Protocol.

    The DUP possibly also forget the other legislative changes the UK government brought in to NI the last time the Assembley was collapsed.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    The UUP aren't planning on following the DUP's selfish approach...




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Wandering through twitter at various postings about the recent NI news and I note a tweet by Kate Hoey who is moaning as usual because she didn't get the Brexit she wanted.

    However, the news seems to have brought out more morons than usual. This reply to Ms. Hoey caught my eye (and they seem to be serious)...




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    The DUP (and perhaps other politicians in NI, and possibly the NI electorate too) seem to me to have a distorted sense of their own importance in the world at times.

    Perhaps it comes of being babied/infantalised by the UK and Irish governments (and USA and even the EU now too) for so long?

    If it is indulged by others (listened to RTE R1 news this lunchtime and the whole thing was about Sir Jeffrey and the DUPs latest brain-farts), maybe they are right and NI is the centre of the universe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,762 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Now what would that require be put in place....... whats that B word again?



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,245 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Two very defined positions in Unionism, one anti-Protocol/GFA one. One pro-Protocol (maybe 'accepting of the protocol' would be better than 'pro') and looking to make the easements/flexibilities work.

    Time is ripe for an election IMO.

    Time to call the DUP's bluff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    The thing is I was convinced the dup have been in serious difficulties but they are actually being quite smart here if somewhat selfish.

    if there is an election in may they will be destroyed. If the create an election over the Irish Sea checks (an you’ll note today they have like Eu subtly changed their language - it’s Irish Sea checks now not protocol) then large sections of unionism will be forced to swing back behind them for fear a vote anywhere else will be spun as ‘unionists don’t really care about the checks’.

    so I think they have pulled a master stroke - to my annoyance



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,011 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    It seems to me that they are just absolutely snookered with no options left. Death by a thousand cuts for the DUP. Of course they could limit the damage by accepting the situation that they are powerless to change and try to make the best of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,245 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Unionists don't care enough about the Irish Sea Border/checks/abstract separation.

    That is quite clear from the abject failure to get them out protesting about it and the UUP now being the lead unionist party in polls.

    If there is an election the overwhelming vote of the people for pro or accepting the Protocol parties would therefore support getting on with implementing the Protocol, with the DUP and TUV support a minority.

    Seek the opinion of all the people not just unionists - an election is the proper democratic response now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,245 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Alex Kane, in a piece written before Jeffery's speech, outlining the fact that the unthinkable is happening - unionism dividing.




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I have a huge interest in Northern Irish politics and I've followed the latest interest regarding this protocol and the "he said, I said" guff. If Jeffrey Donaldson does indeed proceed with his threat to bring down the power sharing executive, due to his hatred of the NI protocol, then that would be a very silly of him and if I were his inner circle, I would be going politely in his ear, to say that would a devastating mistake for the DUP, if they were to go through with this provocative tactic.

    Just because his "great British Brexit" that he hoped for is now in tatters, and now he is blaming the "bullies in the EU and Dublin" moreso to win over a dubious public, is a clear sign that Sir Jeff and the increasingly far right DUP are losing the Brexit argument, who now may align with the hardline TUV in their desperate bid to win over more hardline unionists. That will cause massive outcry among the moderate unionist community.

    Brexit was never going to be a good news story, look at the situation across the Irish Sea, and the possibility of food shortages in the supermarkets due to a lack of manpower in the delivery of goods, and the nationalistic far right Tories won't even allowing EU transit workers, to sort out the mess. Higher prices are on the cards for consumers there. Look at the behavior of UK Home secretary Priti "Thatcherite" Patel re the situation of migrant crossings in the English Channel. Is that what the DUP are aligning with? This far right, nationalistic, thatcherite policies, deregulated tax haven.

    I see that one such poster here named downcow is trying to defend the approach of Sir Jeff and the DUP. I would suggest if this poster should look at the result of the Northern Ireland vote in the 2016 Brexit referendum, that brought out the very worst in British politics IMO. This Brexit, that was the brainchild of BoJo, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees Mogg, Ian Duncan Smith and their ilk who continuously lied and misled the public, to promote the "the best that Global Britain has to offer". Stuff like "we will regain control of our borders" and "millions of extra pounds poured into the NHS" all washed with a public, that are now seeing those promises as proper bs. This was a Brexit for the elite, the rich and super wealth, hedge and investment funds and Tory donors. This "Brexit for all" narrative, supported by the Tory press, is now dawning on the British people, as patronizing gobble.

    As for the NI Protocol, anyone that thinks that the EU are not flexible in their approach to the protocol, are the same cheerleaders that think Brexit "is jolly good". It's about time that the DUP are called out for their bluff and guff. There is zilch chance of the protocol been discontinued. That's a fact. If Sir Jeff and his fellow DUP cronies continue with this narrow-minded approach, then that's the course of action they have decided to pursue. But IMO it's a self-serving own goal, that will only alienate the moderate unionist community, and that will play into the hands of Sinn Fein and other pro-EU, pro-protocol parties.

    It will be interesting to see what happens if there is an assembly election come year's end. I agree with FrancieBrady that this is big moment for democracy and while I'm no fan of any kind of snap election in NI, due to the high likelihood of instability that could see the likes of republican and loyalist paramilitaries flourish in that political vacuum/impasse, I think an election could be the best outcome, even withstanding how volatile the language and narrative will most likely to be in these politically charged times.

    I honestly believe that this threatening and intimidating approach by the DUP under its recent new leader, will play right into the hands of the likes of SF and the Alliance Party. I think there is very little appetite and support of the more hardline approach that Sir Jeff and the TUV are advocating. The North continues to grapple with Covid, people want their politicians to get on with the job of governing, rather then scoring cheap political points, that the DUP are more interested in these days. That seems to be lost on the DUP and their supporters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I am not sure what that elongated rant meant but if it is all as incorrect as the claim that “one such poster here named downcow is trying to defend the approach of Sir Jeff and the DUP”. Maybe you can refer me to where one such poster here named downcow tried to defend the approach of Sir Jeff and the DUP?



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,245 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    When you called it a 'masterstroke'.

    Not hard to know what you have been doing, running with the hare, hunting with the hounds, it is called.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    But to vote for DUP would also be voting for no stormont. So it would be rule from London for the North. London created and put into existence the protocol.


    The DUP are not offering any solution to the protocol that the EU are happy with. It seems they expect the EU to change their rules which protect the single market for 450 million people because a small Irish political party are not happy with it. It is delusional to think that the EU will change the rules because stormont is collapsed. It is more proof of how dysfunctional the North is and how it will always need outside help.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    because a small Irish political party are not happy with it

    Irish?




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Did you miss where I said ‘to my annoyance’. I said it was a master stroke for ‘selfish’ dup reasons.

    do you guys never get tired of misrepresenting my posts?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,277 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Here’s a guy reminds me of a poster on here. He hates OWC so much that he imagines things.

    this guy gave off that the GAWA were singing ‘you can stick your border pole up your hole’

    😂😂😂

    the were actually suggesting what the Swiss should do with their toblerone 😂😂😂

    the reply’s from the ni fans are worth a read

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/NornIronfansatEuro2016/permalink/2933764286844615/



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