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The Irish protocol.

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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,363 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    this is great to see that the UK are prepared to diverged on practical commonsense issues. I trust this will apply equally to our little bit of the UK.

    The UK cannot diverge without it being acted upon by the EU either now or soon enough. The UK does not have any strength in the relationship and it is purely NI that has prevented the cord being cut.

    The work of charities and youth organisations has been seriously hampered by the EU rule which does not allow staff members of those organisations to drive a minibus but volunteers can. It is a totally ludicrous situation, but someone in the EU thought it was a good idea. Hopefully this is one tiny example of how we will be able to shake off some nonsense EU legislation going forward.

    Correction: any hampering has been as a direct result of the UK deciding leave the EU and egged on by the likes of the DUP. The UK had the opportunity to close alignment with the EU and the DUP scuppered that plan. The UK then came up with what is here now. This was not the choice of the EU. However, any rules in place when the UK left (and the UK now face should they want to trade with the EU) were developed with the full agrreement of the UK.

    Stop trying to rewrite history!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    stop trying to spin. I said quite clearly that they were rules brought in by Eu. Of course we know that the Uk was one of 27 odd countries so of course the Uk were part of it.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,363 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    So what has changed? Why are the rules that the UK helped put in place over the last number of decades now hampering the UK and creating a "ludicrous situation"?

    The EU haven't don't anything to create this. This is 100% all your government's doing!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Nothing has changed. That’s the problem. The rules around this are typical of the lack of common sense. Yes of course the Uk were 1/27th of the decision making process, but thankfully they are now consulting about ditching the rules. Let’s hope they have the balls to go through with it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    The Eu created the ludicrous rules. They were ludicrous before brexit as well.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Presumably Britain could have either blocked or opted out of these 'ludicrous rules'. What you're saying is that the country your swear allegiance to is ludicris.


    What is it with Irish Unionists and their litany of hapless own-goals?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,891 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    If these EU rules are ludicrous why has no EU country complained about them?



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,331 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If the GFA gave "the right of self determination for the people of ni as to whether they are part of the Uk or the Eu", then how come their vote to remain a part of the EU has been ignored?

    Are you saying that Brexit itself is a violation of the GFA?


    In that case, shouldn't unionists welcome the Protocol? Aren't those who oppose it making themselves the enemies of the Union?



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,331 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The rule that prevents staff members of charities from driving minibuses is the exact same rule which is causing the commercial driver shortage in GB; the requirement that anyone who is paid to drive should be appropriately licensed and regulated. You may consider that lacking in common sense and "ludicrous", but I think you'd be in a small minority there.

    This wasn't some bizarre rule foisted on the UK by the EU; as an EU member, the UK supported it and voted for it.

    There are now in a position to make an autonomous decision about whether to retain the rule or not, but there are no indications that they will exercise this freedom by abolishing the rule. The considerations that led them to support and adopt the rule in the first place have not changed. The advent of Brexit is not a reason for changing the rule; if it seemed like a sensible rule to adopt as an EU member state, why would it not be a sensible rule now?

    The freight industry has been warning of this problem for the past five years and asking for urgent rule changes for the past six months; the government's attitude is basically that they should just pay enough to attract the qualified drivers they need. And, as pay increases for drivers are one of the very few positives that can be plausibly associated with Brexit, the political imperative not to undermine them is pretty strong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,129 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Peregrinus, did you have a look at the UUP proposal paper yet? If so, thoughts?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    now this is getting rediculous. The gfa refers to our place in the Uk and guarantees the people of ni to stay in Uk as long as we want.

    if republicans fell asleep at the wheel and were outnegotiated by Trimble etc then that’s just how it is. Although maybe they knew what they were doing as, if I recall correctly, the shinners were anti EU then and wanted brexit 😀. Oh how times change



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,911 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    With 1 google search i found that records show that the British government voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999. That rounds out to them disagreeing with what was being passed by the EU 2% of the time. So there's a 98% probability that any EU law or regulation you have a problem with from the past 20 years was agreed by and very likely had input from the UK.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    It is ludicrous and the Uk were too soft and just going along with rules like these to prevent a battle a day.

    here is how ludicrous the rule is.

    I work for a charity with lots of international volunteers. Since the Eu ruling most of our staff have had to stop driving minibuses. So the current situation is that young international students can drive as they are volunteers.

    so staff members with 30 years experience driving minibuses daily are sitting in the passenger seat while 21 year old students who have zero experience of driving anything bigger than a mini and have never driven on the lefthand side of the road can jump into the drivers seat and drive kids around.

    school teachers cannot drive their rugby team to the match as they are staff but they can drive the church bus for their neighbouring school if they volunteer

    tell me that’s not ludicrous, and that’s just a couple of examples



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,331 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Surely the ludicrous thing here is that unqualified and inexperienced 21-year olds are permitted to drive young kids around despite not having the licensing and regulation that the UK has long considered should be required of staff drivers? Is a busload of kids of less importance, and deserving of less protection, than a carton of eggs being delivered to a supermarket?

    But the decision to allow volunteers to do this wasn't an EU decision; it was a UK decision. The EU regulates employment conditions, but it doesn't regulate basic driving requirements; that has always been a member state competence.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,363 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I work for a charity with lots of international volunteers. Since the Eu ruling most of our staff have had to stop driving minibuses. So the current situation is that young international students can drive as they are volunteers.

    This "EU ruling" is somehting that the UK wanted when it was a member and it allows the EU to protect its external border whilst keeping its internal borders open. The fact that you keep trying to blame the EU for something your PM and government have inflicted on the UK shows how that your bias cannot be overcome or you are simply trolling.

    All of this is because of the UK. Brexit is a construct of the UK. The NIP was put forward by the UK because the DUP objected to having any kind of alignement with the EU, something the UK government wanted at the time.

    Own it because your government gave it to you - nobody else did!


    As for having someone with no experience drive a minibus full of people while the experienced person is unable to do anything to prevent a collision, surely this is a really good metaphor for Brexit?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,129 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    As for having someone with no experience drive a minibus full of people while the experienced person is unable to do anything to prevent a collision, surely this is a really good metaphor for Brexit?

    Ouch!



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,331 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yes, the GFA refers to NI's place in the UK, and guarantees NI's right to stay in the UK as long as its people want.

    It says nothing - at least explicitly - about NI's place in the EU, which is why I challenged your claim that the GFA gave the people the right to determine "whether they are part of the Uk or the EU". I don't see that you had any foundation for the highlighted words. My point was that, if there was any foundation for those words, then Brexit could not have proceeded.

    I don't the failure to mention NI's place in the EU is is because Republicans "fell asleep at the wheel"; the GFA was explicitly constructed in the context of shared EU membership by IRL and UK, and the UK's place in the EU wasn't in question at the time. Besides, as you point out, SF wasn't madly keen on the EU at the time. Converesely, by his own account, Trimble wasn't a leaver at the time; he didn't form Leavish opinions until after he served on the House of Lords EU Select Committee, which he didn't join until 10 years after the GFA. So, if anybody did pull the wool over anybody else's eyes at the time, the pulling may have been in the opposite direction from the one you suggest. 😀 But in reality I think it wasn't an issue either way; the GFA was constructed on shared EU membership and nobody on either side foresaw that situation changing.

    The High Court has already ruled (in the proceedings that you started this thread to discuss) that the NI Protocol does not affect NI's place in the UK in a way that invokes the GFA guarantee of self-determination. Hoey, etc, announced that they would appeal that decision, but I can't find any reports confirming that they ever actually did file an appeal. The crowdfunding effort appears to have been abandoned; the fundraising page hasn't been updated since 17 May, and makes no mention of any appeal against the High Court decision.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    That’s the point I was making. Even with only disagreeing 2% of the time, they were still regarded as trouble makers. Thanks for that stay it really demonstrates the problem with the Eu



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    This is not an employment condition it is a driving condition. Nothing to do with employment. And I haven’t looked back but I think you will see that I said in our case they ‘could’ drive, but I take your point that the vast majority of organisations arr allowing them to drive their kids around.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Can’t understand why everyone is getting so agitated. My point is simply that I and pleased (and surprised) that our government is going to consider changing some of the most ludicrous rules.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,129 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Maros Sefcovic ahead of his working dinner with the Taoiseach Micheal Martin in Government Buildings tonight:

    “We think certain stakeholders in Northern Ireland need to hear that the Protocol will not be rewritten. We will find solutions in its implementation, but we will not propose to the UK to start renegotiating. Because we don't think there is an alternative.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,911 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Thats a complete misinterpretation of reality. The only time the UK was described as troublemakers was when people were talking specifically about farage and his ilk that were elected to the european parliament. The UK as an entity was never regarded as a trouble maker until the brexit duplicity and cakeism began after they triggered article 50.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,363 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Can you show one example of when they were regarded as troublemakers?

    You have a habit here of making allegations that are incorrect and I believe that this is one of those occasions.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,363 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Your government cannot change some of what you think are the "most ludicrous rules". Do you seriously believe that if the UK try and ignore an international trade agreement that it wont come back to bite them?

    Anyhow, how exactly will the UK be able to unilaterally ignore the "most ludicrous rules"? Do you think the UK will suddenly start exporting foods into the EU that fail to meet EU standards? Do you think they will allow animals to travel without appropriate checks? Do you think medicines another chemicals can be sent to the EU without the appropriate paperwork? How long do you think that will last?

    Naive to the extreme!

    Surely if you believe the EU is as bureaucratic as you say then this unilateral action cannot be allowed to happen anyhow - you are contradicting your previous claims about the EU.

    Post edited by Seth Brundle on


  • Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Speedline


    I worked in Holland when I was 20 and 21. I was given the keys to a crew cab van and allowed to drive workmates around, to and from job sites. I held a full driving licence. What is the problem?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    There is no problem. Would you have thought it strange if your Dutch colleagues who had been driving the crew cab for 30 years were not allowed to drive and this whippersnapper from Ireland could?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    A few big doors left open there. Quite a move from Eu.

    I do not expect the protocol to be rewritten. I am tired saying that most of it is a huge benefit to ni.

    I do not expect the Eu to propose to the Uk to start renegotiating. I am happy for Uk to keep proposing it and for the Eu to call it ‘keep talking’

    I think we all agree there is no alternative to a protocol.

    yes let’s have common sense in its implementation and the majority of the Irish Sea checks removed.

    I could get to like those guys in Brussels yet 😝



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,477 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Sefcovic's statement is completely aligned with what you've been told time and time again on this thread, but whatever helps you sleep at night, Downcow. I'm looking forward to seeing how you next shift the goalposts to try and claim victory when you're incorrect again.

    I'm particularly impressed with your continued confidence, given that you haven't been right about pretty much a single thing throughout your Brexit predictions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I really wish this discussion could be less adversary and more educational. I have been told over and over how the UK would be punished if they dared to extend the grace periods. They have now done it several times without action.

    The local radio Ulster News this morning is reporting on the most recent 'indefinite' extension to grace periods by the UK, and the BBC says that it is clear that the EU has reluctantly accented to it.

    So rather than telling me that I am burying my head in the sand, you could acknowledge your surprise about the EU approach to the continued extension of grace periods



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,477 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    If you can find a single post of mine saying anything negative about continued extensions, I'd love to see it. There was a bit of a schebango when Britain tried to unilaterally make a declaration, they sold it as a great win to the usual Express reading types, got a stern talking to, had a pending legal challenge hanging over their head to ensure they act like grown ups going forwards.

    Continued extensions are perfectly acceptable to me.....Alex Kane and several other Unionist leaning journalists have interpreted the continued extensions in much the same way as I have. A pretence from the British government to look like they're they're doing something about the NI Protocol; a sop to give the usual suspects among Loyalism time to peter out. How you can try and paint Britain remaining aligned with the EU indefinitely as a victory is quite perplexing.



    I'd be quite content for current levels of alignment to remain indefinitely (the closer the UK remains to the EU the better as far as I'm concerned), though if I was a card carrying Brexit supporter, I'd be questioning what was the point given that it was sold as taking back control.


    In the meantime, the party you profess to support are calling for greater North-South cooperation and the creation of a new North-South trade body (with Beattie stating he's ready for any criticism he may face while helping to make the Protocol work, fully expecting the cries of Lundy to spring up).... while Sammy and Dodds are saying, "well Boris has already broken every promise he's made, so why expect otherwise'. It seems that the leadership within Unionism don't share your confidence that the Tories are all that fussed about what folk in NI think.

    Post edited by Fionn1952 on


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