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Marvel's Black Widow



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,452 ✭✭✭ McDermotX

    Possibly, but the other argument needs to be put forward, that the world has changed considerably over the last 18 months or so and the likes of Hollywood and the acting classes have to adapt in the same way most others business and people have had to.

    Black Widow may have made more if this had never happened, but I'm certainly more certain that it wouldn't have made a significant dent if it was still delayed and not released till 'things were back to normal'. We still don't know what the new 'normal' is after all. Casual glance at the UK box-office shows a level half of what it was pre-pandemic, in what is technically a more or less unrestricted and highly vaccinated market. US box-office outlook already indicates revenue damage for the next 4 years, worse than earlier predictions.

    If they'd opened theatrical-only earlier, it would have flatlined, if they delayed for, say, next Spring, it would have had middling returns IMO. Not to mention the impact to other plans. Oft-forgotten is the fact that once a movie is in the can, it's losing money until it sells tickets, whether that's down to investor deadlines, legal obligations, contract disputes etc. It cannot just sit there in the backroom for years.

    I don't know the ins and outs of the details of Johansson/Disney's contract, but I suspect she would have liked her vehicle to have been motoring in the cinemas years ago, which is probably more to the heart of the problem, and while I've no sympathy for Disney at all, both parties need to sit back and re-assess their positions. I suspect a compromise down the line, best case.

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 26,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp

    Thing is, I think there's room for all angles to be correct. There possibly is an element of superhero fatigue, in the sense that if it isn't MCU or DC there's a creeping broad apathy from audiences. The appetite isn't infinite, nor without preferences. Look at how hard Jupiter's Legacy flopped on Netflix, presumably giving the service pause about that big cheque they signed for Mark Milar's work. OK, The Boys on Amazon has done well, but I think it has traded on its inherent violent transgression of the tropes, rather than an embrace of them.

    If Hollywood truly is the race to be second, then it stands to reason the properties most resistant to audience disinterest or fatigue would the one(s) that caused the gold rush in the first place. The MCU created a very stable, long-term product that other studios have singularly failed to replicate (mostly cos they keep ballsing it up, cough cough DC), and I would speculate while broad audiences might tire of capes in general, the MCU might tick onwards within its own realm.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,373 ✭✭✭ Cork_exile

    Is Jupiter's Legacy any good?

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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 26,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp

    Truthfully? I didn't watch it myself, but mostly because the consensus from opinions I'd value were a series of gigantic shoulder-shrugs. That it wasn't terrible, just very inessential and lacking spark. Lazy almost, perhaps symptomatic of that gold rush. Netflix agreeing, 'cos they cancelled it fairly soon after release?

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭ The Phantom Pain

    Well, as someone who actually watched the series... It was good but had problems that are understandably off-putting. Like Arrow, it relies on flashbacks except here the flashbacks are by far and away the best thing about the show as its unravelling the mystery of how the main cast got their powers. The present day story picks up by the end of the season with some interesting reveals but by then it's too little too late.

    There's a great philosophical theme throughout the show about whether it's morally just to kill a bad person to save the lives of many. Some interesting characters but the lead character is immensely unlikeable and miscast to boot resulting in bad wigs and fake beards. This is coupled with some terrible costumes that make the whole show look cheaper than it actually is.

    The comic its based on is actually about the main character's daughter but Netflix decided to make the show a prequel about her father instead which may or may not have been a mistake. In the series the daughter is a cliched coked up model but she has super powers that when she puts to use makes her more interesting, so you can see the potential of what the show could have been if they had followed the comics. Overall, it was OK. Not great but not the train-wreck some said it was either IMO.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭ The Phantom Pain

    "I don't know the ins and outs of the details of Johansson/Disney's contract, but I suspect she would have liked her vehicle to have been motoring in the cinemas years ago, which is probably more to the heart of the problem, and while I've no sympathy for Disney at all, both parties need to sit back and re-assess their positions. I suspect a compromise down the line, best case."

    That's irrelevant. Whether the film was released earlier or later is besides the point. Disney agreed that they would pay Scarlett Johansson what she is owed from the box office ticket sales which they compromised by doing a day and date Disney plus release. Disney violated the contract, didn't answer ScarJo's team's calls when they tried to contact them about it and then put out a daft statement outing the woman's salary to make her look spoiled. They then tried to make out she's some cold and heartless witch for having the audacity to not be treated like trash by the company she has made money for for the past 10 years. To make matters worse they never did this to Dwayne Johnson for Jungle Cruise. Now they're trying to keep the case out of the public eye because they realise how bad they look.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,548 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol

    How is it irrelevant? The contract details are key, if they had no wording in the deal that stopped a duel release then Johansson it'll be a tough case to make.

    'Compromising' box office ticket sales seems like a stretch when Disney can say they actually saved Johansson far more money by pushing the original release date from peak pandemic to when it was eventually released (not that Disney didn't also gain from it).

    Both sides come out of this looking poorly by not dealing with it behind the scenes - sure Disney made money from Johansson for years but she's also made an absolute fortune from them.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭ The Phantom Pain

    Please do your research. If you want, you can actually listen to a lawyer on the matter below. Rather than "if-ing" and "but-ing" you can view, for yourself, why and how Disney clearly violated the contract :

    You can also listen to John Campea's take who used to work in law:

    '"Compromising' box office ticket sales seems like a stretch when Disney can say they actually saved Johansson far more money by pushing the original release date from peak pandemic to when it was eventually released (not that Disney didn't also gain from it)."

    So? They pushed the release date back... and then proceeded to undermine the box office ticket sales by doing a day and date release. It's not an either/or. It's a both/and. Also, again that has nothing to do with the fact that Disney violated their agreement.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,548 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol

    That first video is a bit of a joke, she just reads Johannsson's side and nods her head without any effort of thinking what the Disney response could be. The second video has even less substance, just a load of bile from two guys shouting how mean Disney are.

    Here's a pretty short article looking from a legal perspective at the case from both sides and it comes to the conclusion that her case is pretty weak. As discussed here previously, it points out how she had nothing in her contract that it had to be exclusively in theatres - the only explicit element was 1500 screens in the US and they released in 9000. We only have sight of the elements of contract and communications that Johannsson's team has chosen to put into the public domain and they aren't anything close to slam dunks.

    A big takeaway is why this was always headed to arbitration - given that it is part of her deal that she very weakly tried to get around and the route she could have gone to from day 1 rather than go public with a lawsuit of Disney. Instead of going this route she agreed to take to resolve contract differences with 'the big bully' she instead took a swing and now her team and many others are trying to paint her as some poor victim after the big bully responded like big bullies do - again both sides coming off really bad.

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,827 ✭✭✭✭ glasso

    It's generally accepted in the industry that WarnerMedia and HBO overpaid actors for streaming compensation deals on movies

    Hence why there are a few entries on the highest paid roles of all-time by them over the last year and in pandemic times of all times

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,282 ✭✭✭✭ flazio

    Bumping to remind you that it comes out on Disney+ this Wednesday.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭ Slydice

    Gave this a watch. Very enjoyable! Way more than I could tell from the trailers.

    I thought they did the family parts really well. It was reluctant but it felt like a proper bond. Liked the jokes too! 🙂

    Also seemed to work very well after seeing the Hawkeye TV series. Wierd but worked for me.

    Especially the sentimental call-backs/call-forwards. Seemed to work both ways

    For the future, it's strange, there felt like likes of potential.

    Red Guardian kept mentioning fighting Captain America so it almost sounds like there's a back-in-time film lined up for that.

    Definitely wouldn't mind seeing more Yelena, Melina, Taskmaster and The Black Widows!

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭ Need a Username

    Chris Evans has left the MCU so there no chance of a live action story with Red Guardian.

    I have mixed feeling about such a story. It would be cool to see some post-thaw Rodgers adventures from in between the movies but also it is fun with how they left it ambiguous as to whether or not Red Guardian was telling tall tales.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,282 ✭✭✭✭ flazio

    Red Guardian was called out on that wasn't he? How Captain America was still in ice when RG claimed to have fought him? Although I have a theory that it might have been Isiah (the old man we meet in Falcon and the Winter Solider)

    Anyway, I reckon Marvel are already working on a buddy cop series for "Hawkeye and The Black Widow" featuring Yelena and Kate Bishop.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,823 ✭✭✭ TheIrishGrover

    Thought Florence Pugh totally stole the show. I would imagine to the consternation of Scarlett Johansson - She had all the best lines and quips. You could see that they were spending a huge amount of time building up her character as they had Plans.

    I thought the film itself was only average. Most of that was down to the fact that there was no real risk-level for Black Widow. You know she's going to survive. You know she is going to be pretty much unchanged in that it's not like she came back to the next Avengers film all scarred up or carrying any (new) trauma. It really was about fulfilling Scarlett Johansson's contract and introducing Yelena.

    Who again totally stole the show in Hawkeye

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭ Need a Username

    I forgot that he was caught out on the dates.

    Maybe it was all made up so.

    It doubt it was Isaiah - he was released from prison in the 80s but what would have motivated him to fight? He don’t seem to believe in anything especially if it involves dressing up in a costume. And Red Guardian would know if he was fighting a black man in a Captain America suit.

    It goes without saying that Steinfeld and Pugh are going to team up again - and many times I hope. I hope it is a series but they’ll be in movies too.

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 26,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp

    I took Red Guardian to be well-meaning but ultimately, a total bullshít artist. That yeah, he never fought Captain America but deeply wanted to - if only to prove to himself he had a point.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭ Need a Username

    I honestly can’t explain this and it baffles me but every time (and I mean EVERY time) I hear Florence Pugh’s voice in an interview in I am surprised at what her voice sounds like.

    It is very strange.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,406 ✭✭✭ FunLover18

    I think this is the most logical explanation but if that's the case then the fact that he keeps it up even with those supposedly closest to him kinda takes away from the sincerity of those moments for me.

  • Registered Users Posts: 54,934 ✭✭✭✭ Agent Coulson

    He never said it was Steve Rodgers Captain America did he?

    He could have taken on Isaiah Bradley's Captain America who we met in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

    This also plays into no one believing him as America kept Black Captain America secret.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,282 ✭✭✭✭ flazio

    It's called acting dahling 😝

    Nah, I'm with you and she's not the only one. Stephanie Beatriz sounds nothing like Rosa in real life and if you ever watched Orphan Black, you'll probably have no clue as to what Tatiana Malsaney's natural dictation is. Is it British, Ukrainian, Soccer Mom?

  • Registered Users Posts: 29,879 ✭✭✭✭ Penn

    Kinda have to factor in though not just the different race which Red Guardian doesn't mention, but also Bradley wasn't Captain America, just a super soldier.

    RG might have fought Bradley or other super soldiers, but I think him saying he fought Captain America is just him bullsh*tting.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭ Need a Username

    No it is about any roles she played.

    I aware she was a star on the rise for a while and saw photos but saw interviews with her long before any movies.

    So her acting and ability to do accents has nothing to do with it.

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 26,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp

    Ack it's why the movie felt so half-baked; as you ímply his arc is a little muddled or messy. Leaving aside the Captain America stuff, I never thought the script properly threaded the line between the "mission first" man we met at the start - complicit in two girls being kidnapped - and the paternal waffle he kept up after the "family"'s reunion. Maybe I've forgotten a moment like that. While that scene after the Guardian's rescue, with all the talk about the widows' forced sterilisation, just hit all the wrong tonal notes.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭ Need a Username

    The whole world knew Rogers was Captain America and it it is clear that Red Guardian is talking the Captain America. The one Nathashia worked with.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭ Need a Username

    The movie is great but I agree about how they handled the sterilisation of the women in the programme.

    It was good moment for Yalena to have the outburst but the reaction they had Red Guardian do wrong in many ways.

    Plus it was never brought up again.

    If they had made Red Guardian react seriously to that moment he would have been believable as their father.

    The issue was treated with more respect by Joss Whedon - which is kind of ironic.

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 26,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pixelburp

    It was a terrible piece of writing; a bit too snarky but Yalena's outburst was justified and earnest ... but Guardian's reaction was awful. Shades of that kind of "eww, woman's problems, gross!" reaction you'd have thought was nuked in the writers' room. Especially given later they made pains to show us this "family" working together; as you say the set-up was there for Guardian to atone for his sins, and being complicit in his "daughters" sterilisation. instead, they played it as a joke; hoho, men don't like hearing about women's health issues. Jaysus.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭ Need a Username

    This a much way of saying what I wanted in the previous post.

    thank you.

    the moment killed the fun of the movie for quite some time afterward - and to be honest it felt completely alien to the movie it had been up to that point and the movie it was afterwards.

    I also find it odd as it was women in control of the movie - yes not every woman cares about such a topic - I just find it surprising

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,548 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol

    I doubt Johansson cared about building up Pugh, if anything she likely supported it as it is the culture of most MCU films to introduce other characters - she benefited from it herself in IM2.

    Understand your point regarding the risk to BW in the movie but that is the case for all prequels and it is very rare that a named hero dies in any movie. BW movie does however add to the level of new trauma when it comes to where she is mentally in Endgame and the sacrifice she makes, especially as we see in Hawkeye that

    Yelena was snapped by Thanos so what she was doing was also to bring her back

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,823 ✭✭✭ TheIrishGrover

    "Oh, we're going to do a more grounded movie about a lady who jumped off a cliff on planet Vormir after a red-faced war criminal who is now a space ghost explained that that was the only way to get her hands on the magic rock she wanted before a muscled-bound purple alien got it and completed his power glove?"