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N17 - Knock to Collooney [design & planning underway]

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Comments

  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Yes, the map has been updated, pretty sure it's hosted somewhere else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6 bod68


    Which colour routes are missing? I can't log on ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭friedcircuits


    I put Old and New pics up back a page. Got kicked off then its completely gone now no warnings even.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Couldn't tell you, to be honest. I was mainly looking at the Curry area, and all the routes are bunched very close to there. They've gotten rid of the ones that were far to the west of Curry, the ones near the ball alley at the crossroads.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6 bod68


    Thanks,looked at the old and new map and they seem to have dropped the outer ones on either side? , seems the ones left are very close to Tubbercurry, would that be correct?



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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    They've also dropped the "do minimum" option



  • Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭friedcircuits


    Tubbercurry options - I don't see the Black or Cyan being runners in my opinion - anyone have any input? Maybe light Black?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Looks like the northern end is definitely going to be 3km online upgrade. The southern end looks like minimum c.3km online north of Knock before going offline if Light Green is chosen, more like 6km online if Dark Green is chosen. Options become more numerous from Kilkelly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭friedcircuits




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The northern end looks to me to only have one option, Grey, therefore it will be an upgrade of the existing road.

    The southern end also only has one option, Orange, with the Light Green route then branching off and the Dark Green branching off further north. This looks to mean minimum 3km upgarde of existing road then going offline with Light Green route, or 6km upgarde of existing road then going offline with Dark Green route.

    I'm open to correction on this if I am reading it wrong.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭friedcircuits


    Thanks. Just trying to understand it myself - as I look at it routes going through or very near towns (Tubbercurry, Curry and Charlestown) don't make sense with population and infrastructure etc so my thinking is this new road will essentially link but "bypass" these towns similar to the Tuam bypass dual carriageway thats my thought - any ideas from others?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭yannakis


    Here's a direct link to the revised route options. You can zoom pretty far in.

    https://sligotransport.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=d7cc4e844330451bab50a19e8df2024a



  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭Mullinabreena


    Tubbercurry chamber of commerce are pushing for a route as close as possible to the town. I hope its not the route that runs through the Tubbercurry forest trail or the golf club. Social and sporting facilities are poor enough in South Sligo without removing existing ones. I feel sorry for Owenmore Geals who look like they will loose their pitch for the second time, they were beside the Teeling statue but had to move for the N4 dual carriageway. I assume Charlestown are doing the same as Tubbercurry chamber of commerce, for business reasons. I can't see the route that goes to the east of Tubbercurry-Muckelty hill been a option as it runs through bog.



  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭Mullinabreena


    Yes that's my understanding too but with no roundabouts like on Tuam



  • Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭friedcircuits


    That's the routes I don't see as very feasible - Black and Cyan. Black going very close to trail and multiple housing estates and houses and Cyan very near housing estates and golf course also. If they went with Grey they may push it further towards town, town is already "bypassed" - I only see cars going through town to try and beat trucks going behind town!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Keep in mind that the corridors are not mutually exclusive. The final route doesn't have to be one corridorfrom end to end and will likely transition between sections of multiple corridors.

    In any case, I think that there is zero chance going through a town would be quicker than a new build road bypassing the town.



  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭Mullinabreena


    One of those routes also goes very close to Rhue cemetery too so very unlikely. If I was a betting man I'd say it will follow the dark green route near the secondary school for the Tubbercurry section. Then when it gets closer to Mullinabreena parish I think it will follow the green or orange route. Its good land there with sand and gravel deposits and low population density. Some of the other routes in the Mullinabreena section closer to the existing N17 are quite boggy and its easier to build on a green field site then all the traffic management problems if its the routes closer to the current N17.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I doubt Owenmore Geals will loose their pitch. Grey is the only option there and it looks to be on the existing road. That is a relatively modern stretch of road and I doubt DC will be justified here so landtake doesn't seem necessary. That section might get nothing more than resurfacing.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    New press release, announcing more in person meeting dates.

    See here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette


    €1 million allocated to this project in the 2022 allocations from TII - this should be enough to keep the route selection process going.



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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    DumbBrunette's post reminded me to check the website, and there's a new press release out. Site investigations have started along the routes. Further update on when the EPO will be announced in February.




  • Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭hangar18_


    Will there be any updates today, as February was meant to be the next press release.



  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭cartoncowboy




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I was just about to post that link.

    So they haven't got a Preferred Route yet but when they do, it has to be peer reviewed so no news until summer. Just great.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 jnorahs


    Hoping early this month the preferred route will be announced!!!! Such a long long wait!!!


    "Peer Review process with Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII); this process which is a requirement of the TII Project Management Guidelines is expected to conclude in May"



  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭cartoncowboy


    Looks like they are delayed with the preferred route announcement - now mid July.


    Emerging Preferred Option: Press Release – June 2022 – N17 – Knock to Collooney (n17knockcollooney.ie)



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 jnorahs


    Who bets September at this rate, August is hols no doubt!!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette


    Mayo county council has confirmed that the N17 project will be built in stages if it gets planning permission, rather than in one go.




  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭cartoncowboy


    OH God, I hope not. This would see it built piece meal, with it taking decades to complete. Whatever government is around can pull the plug on certain sections, chop and change it, stall it, defer it, no money available etc etc. Surely that approach would make it more expensive overall! The entire route is a joke of a road and dangerous, with 80Kph speed limit for the most part. Ho humm :-(



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11 jnorahs


    I'd well believe it as it has a 2045 completion!! Stages make sense, though torturous to us affected!!!



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    It had already been confirmed as much by TII a few years ago before the current mess were in, so I’d imagine it can be taken as a given now.

    There’s a few of these long projects that will be split up because on their own they would consume too great a proportion of the overall roads budget. Splitting this up many actually see parts of it done faster for that reason.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    This was originally three projects: Knock-Charlestown, Tobercurry Bypass, Tobercurry-Collooney, so it’s not surprising that it would be split again. Although I’d prefer a different breakover point between the schemes now, something like: Knock-N5, Charlestown-Tobercurry Bypass, Tobercurry-Collooney, and do them from North to South: the two towns need bypasses, but Tobercurry-Collooney is a very dangerous road and safety should be first priority here.

    In general, I think it makes a lot of sense to plan these upgrades as big projects, but when it comes to getting them built, sometimes it’s cheaper to do it in parts: there are few companies who would be willing to take on the whole 55 km, so splitting it into sections allows for more tenders to be received.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nobody pays road tax in Ireland.

    Motorists pay motor tax, which is based on the emissions of the motor



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The taxpayer. Just like everything else in the country. Money taken from motor tax goes into the general taxation pots that pays for everything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Rulmeq


    Motor tax brings in around €900 million a year, that doesn't cover the cost of maintaining the roads we have* let alone building new ones. Having said that, all car related taxes bring in about €6.2 billion per year (1.7b VRT, 3.5b fuel - and we can probably expect that to rise this year). So we do more than pay for the roads that way.

    * We spend €1.42billion on road maintenance: https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/transport/2022/



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Road maintenance is not the only cost, there are a good deal more costs e.g. economic, societal etc. This has been rehashed on other, more appropriate, threads many times



  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭cartoncowboy


    My worry is that its all planned out as a single, large project and passes the various gates in terms of environmental studies, planning etc.

    Then its broken into chunks with certain pieces built before the rest, it could be a decade or more before the originally planned scoped road come to fruition. In that time things change or planning permission expires and the the remaining sections get panned and we end up throwing all the good work in the bin and start the whole thing again at huge cost. We see this happen all the time in Ireland. Millions are spent planning roads, consultants are paid big bucks, planning takes ages and then the project is "postponed" or "suspended" and we end up with half a road and be glad we got it.

    As you say , Originally this was broken up into sections and then brought together as one large scheme, seemingly to take advantage of economy of scale and the fact the entire section needs an upgrade anyway, and then to break it up again to deliver it in parts makes no sense to me.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    One obvious reason for breaking it up is resources.

    The pot for road spending is shrinking and only going to get smaller. In terms of spreading the funds around, it makes sense to do many smaller projects in as many constituencies as possible, rather than putting all the resources into large scale developments.

    It also allows for the constant promises of "the next bit" in 3-5 years when in reality it might not come until 7-10 years after the previous bit.

    One good example of this is the Athenry ring road. Its a small project, broken up into 1-2km sections and being done 1 section at a time almost at a rate of 1 a decade



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Again. There. Is. No. Such. Thing. As. Road. Tax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I suspect that combining the schemes into one was done to avoid the “rosary beads” effect of small bypasses, where completed the road ends up circling one town, then another, then another. The only economy of scale is that it’s all surveyed, designed and managed from one office, rather than three or four. With that master design to work from, the scheme can be put out to tender in smaller sections in the knowledge that the final thing will join up properly. It also helps to have the final alignment through planning, as it gives a lot more flexibility in scheduling the construction.

    The fate of the Athenry Ring Road isn’t really relevant to this: for a start, it’s not a national route, it’s not funded from the Government capital budget, and it’s not being managed by TII. Galway County Council decided to build it, and it votes a new bit of that road to be built, by its own labour, whenever they have some spare cash - it’s not a construction project with a contract. That’s not exactly a great way of doing road construction, but there you go..

    If you want a national route that’s been sliced into tiny sections, look at N56 Dungloe to Glenties in Donegal. But again it’s not necessarily for cost alone: this is nearly all online upgrades, and there’s no real alternative route for traffic to use, so the only way to do it without forcing people into taking 30 km detours was to work in 3~5 km sections. In effect, though, a lot of those works were done as a rolling project, with one section beginning before the previous has ended.

    For this, three projects of 20 km each seems most likely, and it neatly divides the the sections into a priorty order: the northern 20km is lethal, but would be quick and cheap to do as an offline build, the middle one is congested (and would be the most expensive), and the southern one is okay but just needs minor improvements.

    Post edited by KrisW1001 on


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Ah I see. They're a troll who doesn't even live in Ireland. Bye bye then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    I would take a 2045 completion date to mean that this won't be finished in most of our lifetimes, being honest. I remember back in the late 90s/early 2000s when councillors in Mayo were up in arms that the N5 Westport - Longford upgrades weren't scheduled to be finished until something like 2014. It's 2022 now and Westport to Castlebar East is still not expected to open this year even, Castlebar to Bohola has been pretty much canned and Ballaghaderreen to Strokestown still hasn't started and needs to be retendered.

    To be honest if they could just focus on Collooney to Tubbercurry and get that bit done I could live with the rest of it, but that long stretch north of Tubbercurry is shocking for such a key route into the north west.



  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭cartoncowboy


    "To be honest if they could just focus on Collooney to Tubbercurry and get that bit done I could live with the rest of it, but that long stretch north of Tubbercurry is shocking for such a key route into the north west."

    I would definitely agree with you there. Its definitely the worst part of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭Mullinabreena


    If its been done in stages I really hope Tubbercurry to Collooney is the starting point



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Registered Users Posts: 11 jnorahs


    Glued to this and it's pushed out everytime, if you could just believe them!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    In fairness, I dont think it has been pushed out now. The update in March said;

    For the purposes of completeness, it has been decided not to publish (for public display and consultation) the Emerging Preferred Corridor until after the Peer Review process has been completed. This will ensure the most robust corridor possible is presented to the public and taken forward for the next more detailed phase of ‘Design & Environmental Evaluation’.

    Then the update in June said;

    Sligo Regional Design Office submitted the proposed Emerging Preferred Corridor to Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) for Peer Review at the end of May 2022. This has been scheduled for early July 2022.

    It is not possible to publish (for public display and consultation) the Emerging Preferred Corridor until after the Peer Review process has been completed.

    Once the Peer Review process has been completed (anticipated early to mid-July), this office will issue an update with the anticipated timeline for the public release of the Emerging Preferred Corridor.

    And now August says;

    A draft Emerging Preferred Corridor and draft Option Selection Report underwent a review process in July. Actions arising from this review are currently being established. It is intended that this additional work will be conducted over the months of August and September. Subject to satisfactory conclusion, the Sligo RDO hope to be in a position to publish the Emerging Preferred Corridor in October.

    They are going through the various steps as outlined.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Just putting this out there but I'd actually be OK if this was downgraded to single carriageway. That would still be a huge improvement over the current road, would save heaps of money and there won't be any more DC further south as Claremorris/Knock bypass widening is cancelled and Tuam-Claremorris may never happen now with the construction of the new junction southeast of Claremorris.



  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭cartoncowboy


    I'd have to disagree with you there. Part of the problem with the current road is slow moving traffic - tractors, campervans etc causing major tailbacks with the traffic stuck behind for many Kms unable to pass. This make people take stupid risks with overtaking moves, I've seen several close calls. I think as a road linking two major hubs on the west coast and an international airport in between, a DC should be put in place. Even is just as far a Knock Airport. But if push came to shove and they could install a high quality single as the only option, then yes. But DC would be my preferred option.



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