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N17 - Knock to Collooney [design & planning underway]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 972 ✭✭✭MooShop


    marno21 wrote: »

    Thanks, I hadn't fully read that and missed that part.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭MY BAD


    The N17 speed limit between Tubbercurry and near Collooney has been reduced from 100kph to 80kph.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The N17 speed limit between Tubbercurry and near Collooney has been reduced from 100kph to 80kph.

    Proper order. Some ****show of a road


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    marno21 wrote: »
    Proper order. Some ****show of a road

    It is a terrible road but, its the main road artery from people in the west of Ireland to travel to Sligo and further North to Enniskillen, Belfast, Letterkenny & Derry. So while motorways are been built to speed up travel time on the main routes in the country, here it is been slowed down to 80km.

    At least it might speed up the progress of a new road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭serfboard


    The N17 speed limit between Tubbercurry and near Collooney has been reduced from 100kph to 80kph.
    Has this not been done a while?

    In any case it's a welcome development. However, I hope it's sensible and that the 100kph re-applies 2km north of Ballinacarrow.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭MY BAD


    serfboard wrote: »
    Has this not been done a while?

    In any case it's a welcome development. However, I hope it's sensible and that the 100kph re-applies 2km north of Ballinacarrow.
    They changed the speed limit signs last week before the lock down. This stretch of road was added to the new speed van zones a while back.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,663 ✭✭✭✭joujoujou
    Unregistered Users


    [...]

    At least it might speed up the progress of a new road.

    Seriously doubt that.

    In addition, speed limit drop will more than likely slow the traffic down significantly over there - until now, during daytime it was literally impossible to drive faster than 80 km/h, not because of conditions - many road users just kept crawling. And now, they will crawl even slower.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    It is a terrible road but, its the main road artery from people in the west of Ireland to travel to Sligo and further North to Enniskillen, Belfast, Letterkenny & Derry. So while motorways are been built to speed up travel time on the main routes in the country, here it is been slowed down to 80km.

    At least it might speed up the progress of a new road.

    It's not safe at 100km/h. Narrow road with frequent corners, poor horizontal and vertical alignment and soft margins. The road was built for donkeys and carts. If anything the sections of the national primary network that are downgraded to 80km/h should be pushed up the list for works.
    serfboard wrote: »
    In any case it's a welcome development. However, I hope it's sensible and that the 100kph re-applies 2km north of Ballinacarrow.

    Precedent elsewhere in the country would suggest that the 100km/h would apply here. It's only the cart tracks that are downgraded to 80km/h.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    Some progress on the completion of the N17 - route options will be available to view online next week.

    https://westernpeople.ie/2020/09/30/n17-route-options-will-be-published-next-week/


  • Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭yew_tree


    Is this a dual carriageway project 2+2? Is there really a need to upgrade the N17 between knock and Charlestown? Road is perfect.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    yew_tree wrote: »
    Is this a dual carriageway project 2+2? Is there really a need to upgrade the N17 between knock and Charlestown? Road is perfect.

    I'm sure that'll be one of the route options there. Where to branch off to give enough room to go around Charlestown would be the question really, along with whether to go east or west of the town, as that'll likely determine the rest of the route.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭MY BAD


    From Curry to Ballinacarrow in Co Sligo its terrible. The speed limit is now 80km/h. Talking to a engineer who is involved in the project he said following along the old railway line would be cheapest option but unlikely to go that route.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    There seems to be a drive now to classify the N17 as the Atlantic Economic Corridor. Instead of the bad stretches, take a look at the route as a whole:

    M6 to Tuam North: Complete now as motorway and 2+2 around Tuam.

    Tuam North-Claremorris: This was originally to go ahead as a 2+2 towards the end of the 2000s but got sidelined by the recession. The road was so bad as to require immediate action in parts and the worst stretches were realigned around 2010. A further realignment between Milltown and Ballindine was done in 2017 and the remainder of the bad Milltown-Ballindine stretch is currently in design. However, even with this work, the stretch is still going to be overcapacity within a few years and a full 2+2 between the Tuam bypass and the southern end of the Claremorris bypass is required in the future, which will include bypasses of Milltown and Ballindine, It could make the 2021 NDP but the work done along here would have reached obsolescence rather quickly.

    Claremorris/Knock bypass: This 2000s WS2 is an excellent WS2 scheme, but like all WS2 schemes suffers from safety issues and will eventually be a wide single carriageway sandwiched in between two long dual carriageways. Documents filed as part of the plan to create a new grade separated junction south of Claremorris indicate there is a long term plan to upgrade this stretch to 2+2. It would be rather cheap as the mainline works are already done and would require reconfiguration of local roads and accesses. By the time it comes around there would also be 3 grade separated junctions along the stretch.

    Which brings us to this scheme. The study area for this scheme goes from the southern end of the Knock bypass to the N4/N17 roundabout at Collooney. The entire route needs upgrading, but has different levels of priority. The Knock bypass as already discussed would be a cheap upgrade to 2+2 and have major safety benefits. From the northern end of the Knock bypass to Charlestown is 1970s/1980s spec S2 with frequent accesses and, while better than other national roads, isn't the standard of road required going forward for fully dualled N17. There are some twists south of Kilkelly as well that could be improved on. Charlestown-Ballinacarrow is self explanatory, absolute dogs dinner of a road. From there north should be a cheap upgrade to the existing WS2 and is rather short.

    In summary, the 58km or so of N17 up for upgrade contains the following

    * 2000s style wide S2 (Knock bypass)
    * 1970s/1980s style straightened and widened S2 with accesses and other deficiencies (Knock North-Kilkelly-Knock Airport-Charlestown)
    * Legacy 19th century track (Curry-Ballinacarrow)
    * 1990s spec widened S2 (Ballincarrow-N4)
    * Urban areas (Charlestown, Tobercurry, Curry, Ballinacarrow)

    As with all the other interurbans, replacing this mix with a continuous 60km stretch of grade separated dual carriageway is the optimum solution. It would be the minimum level of route to provide decent, consistent interurban service. Piecemeal upgrades and bits here and there won't cut it.

    There are similar long distance upgrades planned in the NDP (M20 Cork-Limerick (80km), N24 Limerick Junction-Waterford (80km) N4 Mullingar-Rooskey). These upgrades are absolutely fantastic and progressive in the context of Irish road development policy which for the most part has been far too ad hoc and unplanned. It would be wonderful to see similar length schemes on other roads such as the N15, N21, N25 and national secondaries. 4km schemes here and there lead to glorified messes in the end.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,870 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Assuming the new road goes east of Charlestown, ideally it would join the N4 further south of where it currently does, even south of Ballymote if possible. We are too keen to shadow historic routes, the N5 Stroketown project is an example of this where the N5 split from the N4 should have moved north. N4 2+2 should have been prioritised, passing south of COS with the N5 branching off here to connect to the Ballaghaderreen bypass giving Mayo traffic more driving on dual carriageway and not having to cross the Shannon in Termonbarry. Same applies here, there will be a high quality road north of Castlebaldwin completed soon, traffic from the N17 should be using it, if possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    I agree about the N5 but I think what you're suggesting for the N17 moving it over to Castlebaldwin is too much of a deviation from the route. The N17 north of Charlestown is also the main route from most of Mayo to Sligo and on to the north. If you pull the new road away to the east of Charlestown and over towards Castlebaldwin many users will continue on the old route and the new one won't really get the traffic it would be built for. I think there are cases where major rerouting is justified but this isn't one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,870 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I agree about the N5 but I think what you're suggesting for the N17 moving it over to Castlebaldwin is too much of a deviation from the route. The N17 north of Charlestown is also the main route from most of Mayo to Sligo and on to the north. If you pull the new road away to the east of Charlestown and over towards Castlebaldwin many users will continue on the old route and the new one won't really get the traffic it would be built for. I think there are cases where major rerouting is justified but this isn't one.

    Even if joining the N4 not too far north of Castlebaldwin, the new road would not necessarily be any further from Charlestown than it otherwise would be. I don't think it would make much difference to those driving from Mayo to Sligo/further north. The only difference with my suggestion is that you spend less time on the yet to be built N17 and more on the almost built N4. Those starting from Tobercurry or further north would likely continue to use the existing N17 but that is a very small amount of traffic and not really worth considering for the National Primary network.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox




  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    They plan to have planning in Q1 2024. EPR in Q4 2021.

    This is a most impressive scheme and when built will be quite the transformation for the region.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭BelfastVanMan


    marno21 wrote: »
    They plan to have planning in Q1 2024. EPR in Q4 2021.

    This is a most impressive scheme and when built will be quite the transformation for the region.

    I can see the stretch of N17 between Curry and Bellahy becoming a favourite for the boy racers, once it becomes a quiet local road...

    This will be a great boon for anyone from Sligo or Donegal travelling to Knock Airport, as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    Quite a few of the route options are running to the west of the airport and closer to Swinford than Charlestown. Would be great for connectivity from Mayo to the airport and to the north west but there would be some difficult topography to deal with if they went that direction.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The routes west of the existing N17 seem optimal to me. Especially south of Charlestown - better connectivity into Swinford/Kiltimagh/the general N5 area. IMO there is limited benefit of running to the east of the existing N17 - there isn't much there. The N83 north of Ballyhaunis carries less than 1k cars per day - it's the quietest national road on the network (open to correction on that but it's def one of them anyway).

    I see that many of the routes also propose going west of Collooney and freeflowing onto the N4 dual carriageway north of Collooney - which is impressive

    Junctions at Kilkelly/Kiltimagh Road, Knock Airport, Charlestown/N5, Tobercurry, Achonry, Ballincarrow and N4 seem to be on the agenda too. All are planned to be grade separated. Serious ambition on show here which is most welcome. This is an absolute world class scheme and if/when it is built it will be transformative. You'd have continuous dual carriageway from Summerhill College to Knock village. Simply a world apart from what's there now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    The other big advantage of going west of Charlestown is that it would bring the route into play for Ballina and North Mayo traffic heading south. I'm not sure what is the most used Ballina/North Mayo to Galway route at the moment but it almost certainly involves using R roads at some point, or even possibly the L road from Ballyvary to Manulla to join the N60 - so people need to travel N26/N58/L??/N60/N17/N83 which is a lot of twisting and turning for a 70 mile trip between two large settlements in the west.

    This scheme would allow traffic from North Mayo to travel down the N26, use a very short, well built stretch of the N5 and then join the new N17 for easy access to the M17, Galway City and the south of the country. Could actually be a bit of a gamechanger for connectivity into North Mayo.

    As noted, there is very little east of Charlestown in terms of population or major towns on this route. However the terrain over there would be a lot easier and presumably cheaper to work with, so I have a feeling they'll stay east of the airport and Charlestown for cost reasons. But personally I think the westmost route on the map would be the one to go for to generate the most benefit from the scheme. If they keep far enough west they can avoid most of the large hill that the airport was built on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,147 ✭✭✭shanec1928


    marno21 wrote: »
    The routes west of the existing N17 seem optimal to me. Especially south of Charlestown - better connectivity into Swinford/Kiltimagh/the general N5 area. IMO there is limited benefit of running to the east of the existing N17 - there isn't much there. The N83 north of Ballyhaunis carries less than 1k cars per day - it's the quietest national road on the network (open to correction on that but it's def one of them anyway).

    I see that many of the routes also propose going west of Collooney and freeflowing onto the N4 dual carriageway north of Collooney - which is impressive

    Junctions at Kilkelly/Kiltimagh Road, Knock Airport, Charlestown/N5, Tobercurry, Achonry, Ballincarrow and N4 seem to be on the agenda too. All are planned to be grade separated. Serious ambition on show here which is most welcome. This is an absolute world class scheme and if/when it is built it will be transformative. You'd have continuous dual carriageway from Summerhill College to Knock village. Simply a world apart from what's there now.


    I wonder how exactly that would work? the area they are proposing to come out at collooney has a few obstacles, the train station and the train tracks are elevated assume its roughly this stretch of road.
    theirs two railway bridges one with a bad bend and the road is a good bit lower than the train tracks


  • Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭steeler j


    marno21 wrote: »
    The routes west of the existing N17 seem optimal to me. Especially south of Charlestown - better connectivity into Swinford/Kiltimagh/the general N5 area. IMO there is limited benefit of running to the east of the existing N17 - there isn't much there. The N83 north of Ballyhaunis carries less than 1k cars per day - it's the quietest national road on the network (open to correction on that but it's def one of them

    If they go east of the n17 would the n83 be downgraded?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    I've never really understood what the original N83 is supposed to achieve as a national secondary route. It connects Tuam to Knock Airport via a different route to the N17, but everyone going that direction would use the N17 anyway. I don't know the background but it has a feel of a political designation to appease locals years ago who might have been unhappy that the Primary route was designated via Claremorris. Some of the N8X routes make sense but that one not so much, especially if traffic is around 1000 vehicles a day - that should be a regional road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette


    It's a bit of a joke alright. I think it was kept as a national route because it used to be the main Galway to Sligo road back in the days of trunk roads. It was part of the T11 Cork to Collooney route.

    I've never really understood what the original N83 is supposed to achieve as a national secondary route. It connects Tuam to Knock Airport via a different route to the N17, but everyone going that direction would use the N17 anyway. I don't know the background but it has a feel of a political designation to appease locals years ago who might have been unhappy that the Primary route was designated via Claremorris. Some of the N8X routes make sense but that one not so much, especially if traffic is around 1000 vehicles a day - that should be a regional road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭serfboard


    I don't know the background but it has a feel of a political designation to appease locals years ago who might have been unhappy that the Primary route was designated via Claremorris. Some of the N8X routes make sense but that one not so much, especially if traffic is around 1000 vehicles a day - that should be a regional road.
    Very interesting that you say that.

    The more direct route from Tuam to Charlestown would be via the N83. The speculation that I've heard is that the church lobbied to get the "main" road routed via Knock.

    In any event, the N83 north of Tuam is an awful road and should really be regional. I would think that most traffic around Ballyhaunis is East-West rather than North-South, so numbers like 1000 north of Ballyhaunis wouldn't surprise me.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Going by recent precedent when this new N17 opens the N83 will be extended to Charlestown.

    You can break the N83 into 3 separate sections:

    Tuam-Galway: Ridiculous nonsense. Tuam-Loughgeorge has no business being a national road when there's a motorway shadowing it. The only reason for this being a national road would be for TII to have to fund a Claregalway bypass seeing as the M17 didn't do much for Galway-Tuam traffic blocking up Claregalway. In that case, extending the N63 from Annagh Hill into Galway would have done a similar job with less national road being retained by TII.

    Tuam-Ballyhaunis: There is some merit in there being a national road into Ballyhaunis from the south to meet the N60 there. It's also the main route from Galway to Dunmore and Ballyhaunis.

    Ballyhaunis-N17: No business at all being an N road with those traffic volumes. Less than 1000.

    Routing the N17 via Claremorris made more sense when it was being upgraded. Better access to Castlebar via the N60, better access to North Mayo via the myriad of R roads in the area, and better access from south of Galway to Westport via the R332 and R330. Routing this new N17 to the west of the existing N17 reinforces the benefits of all of that.


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