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Are you concerned about the destruction of the natural world and climate change?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    I personally think that we are already beyond the point of no return and everything now will be a delaying tactic. Even if we can do something about it I don't think the human race has the capacity to do it. We are hardwired to compete with each other at the expense of whatever gets in our way and that's all there is to it.

    Simon Harris is monitoring the situation...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,527 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Very few, if any, are prepared to do that. Who's going to give up their cheap flights, cheap clothes, latest tech gadgets, their 2 family cars etc?

    You can get people to buy into "green" initiatives to some extent like renewable energy, recycling and the likes because it doesn't hugely affect their lives. Ask them to fundamentally change and give up or curtail things they've taken for granted all their lives and they'll react very differently.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,043 ✭✭✭jmreire



    Well climate change may not concern you at the moment,but it is presently affecting millions on the planet. The Syrian war started when after 5 years of continous drought, (with the last two years being the worst recorded there), thousands of people flocked from the countryside they could no longer survive in to the Cities. And this created the crisis that directly led to the war, which is still ongoing. The reverberations of which are still being felt around the world 10 years later. Falling crop yields due to climate change will and are causing more of the same world wide.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,524 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Yep we import millions of tonnes of animal feed from around the world, for our chickens pigs and cows. What happens when crop failures start occurring worldwide in the coming years? Ireland will suffer, and we are not preparing at all, our politicians don’t want to know and in future people will blame the Greens for doing nothing while in power even though they are loathed in Ireland and any meaningful action would be met with serious hostility.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    The more people on the planet the greater effect on the environment and biodiversity etc. Changes to the environment like cutting down trees for farm use etc has an effect on the climate. Yes developed countries might have done the most damage to the climate but billions upon billions of people on the planet certainly doesn't help the situation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 497 ✭✭the-island-man



    I suppose the hope from my point of view is if the green party were to increase in size and have members\Councillors\TD's from locations throughout the country it would force a shift in power and have a lot more perspective. The bus connect project wouldn't be their only big ticket item!


    For me though extra taxation isn't a problem, the problem is a lack of trust and a lack of transparency that additional taxes are legally ring fenced to be spent on the purpose they are intended for. Property tax is a good example. I'm not really sure what the intended purpose of it was and whether or not it is actually being spent on that purpose. It would seem that it was meant to provide additional funding to local councils to be spent on local services but not 100% sure on this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,943 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    But the unfortunate truth is humans have been killing/sacrificing each other due to crop failure for hundreds of years. Its nothing new. Not trying to downplay a humanitarian disaster like the Syrian war but we need certain levels of perspective as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    I don't doubt that more people equals more space for agriculture and more environmental harm. I just think it's cruel to focus the blame on poorer people trying to survive rather than richer people (and the corporations in the developed world) buying a new car every year and throwing away a massive amount of imported food.

    On the carbon dioxide side the CO2 per person per year in the US is around 16 tonnes, Germany is 9 tonnes, China 8, India 1.9 and Kenya is less than 1.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,741 ✭✭✭Effects


    Thanks, I've got sub but rarely use it. I'll have a read.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,943 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,527 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Irish society in general doesn't give two hoots about climate change or taking real and lasting decisions to make an impact. Yes we'll say that it concerns us and do low impact things like a bit more recycling etc to make us feel warm and fuzzy that we're doing some thing, but there's zero appetite for any drastic measures.

    The budget is coming up soon and you can be guaranteed opposition politicians will start harping on about carbon taxes etc. Furthermore we don't have a single public transport project of any significance under construction in this country which is just laughable really. And any that do get discussed get mired in politics and NIMBYism. Meanwhile we have numerous roads projects under construction and being planned. Tokenism is the order of the day in Ireland and much of society is happy with that.



  • Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sobering reading from the snippets I have seen so far. I suppose we will find out what will happen over the next decade or two.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,043 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Sure they have since time immemorial, but not on the scale present in todays world....and with the capabilities to affect far larger nrs of people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    A poorly educated larger population whilst not consuming as much useless crap as we do will still probably do as much damage though. Considering where they are in the world (i.e hotter climates) they're often the ones to feel the effects of it much quicker than us. Take Madagascar for example. When you think of Madagascar you'd probably think of lush rainforests and the like but the south of the country is completely destroyed. If you look at it on google earth you can see where the people have actively and probably unknowingly turned their country into a desert. Same with Borneo. I was there a few years back and they country has been bulldozed to turn it into giant monocultures of palm oil plantations. They don't realise it but that country is a few years away from becoming completely desertified. And it was once one of the most biodiverse places on earth, now with just a few islands of original rainforest left.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,360 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    I used to, but now ive come to the realization that climate change will be used to blame everything on and increase prices and taxes.

    Its scaring the bejaysus out of young people too.

    I know a few people whos kids are full on depressed about it.

    At this point i cant filter out what is real and what is just more internet bluster or money making scare mongering.

    Im sure some is the truth, but im afraid i just dont take any notice of the media anymore, due to being unable to tell what is the truth and what is for dramatic effect, so im out.

    I just give up worrying about climate change. Of course i'll be good to the environment, but i wont fret if i have the odd lapse, and i certainly will be p1ssed off when i have top pay more either in taxes or other climate money grabs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 497 ✭✭the-island-man


    I lived in a central European country for a period of time. It was law there that 30% of lands was required to be forested. Also in the same country during WWII the farmers were directed to grow vegetables rather than to rear livestock. The logic was that citizens would be able to survive longer on vegetables than using the land for rearing and slaughtering livestock. I would be a fan of the the aule meat but two points there worth noting.

    I'm not from a farming background but it would appear from listening to friends the only thing that any of the grant schemes that essentially come across from the EU only encourage farmers to do is to maintain the hedges around the boundary walls of each of their fields. Pretty important for wildlife but doesn't seem radical enough when you take into account all the talk about climate crisis. It would appear that the EU would prefer Ireland to be it's bread brisket basket!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    I agree that is terrible but the blame for palm oil plantations rests heavily on the consumers of palm oil and the owners of the companies planting/producing it who aren't the poor locals who'll be left with the consequences.

    The focus has to be on overconsumption in the developed world before pointing fingers at poorer people in the developing world having more children.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,943 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    Why are they having loads of children if they are poor ? Hardly makes their situation any better. Famine ,disease and more poverty is all that it leads to.

    One thing they need is to be better educated for starters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    What annoys me is when our overlords talk about long term big picture projects that we never actually plan, never mind deliver. Meantime, there are small steps that can be taken that will make a difference, particularly in terms of getting consumer buy in. For example:

    Why do we still allow the importation of plastic packaging that 'cannot yet be recycled' into the country in the first place?

    Why is the re-cycle effort handed over to local authority management instead of it being treated as a national crisis and centrally managed? The result is different councils are providing different services in different ways. Some are therefore far less effective than others. Some take re-cycle materials that others don't and some have have subcontracted recycle center management out to commercial operations - therefore some people have to pay to recycle... others don't.

    Why do we export most (all?) of our recycle material and pay the 'exporter' grants based on tonnage shipped off the island, without much care about where it goes, or what actually happens to it?

    Why was waste collection taken out of council operation and handed to private enterprise? - more trucks than ever on the road, collecting less waste. The consumer is never going to win in a commercially driven scenario. In order for the waste companies to survive, they will have to charge more to collect less waste.

    Why are new houses not built with water recovery systems as standard?

    Why are retro fits of any energy saving devises so expensive and any grant schemes so complicated? Prepare to be disappointed with your smart meter options... I am sure we will still end up paying more for less, except we will have to put more effort into saving anything - like running our washers and driers through the night, even though the manufacturers and fire brigade would not advise it.

    Why do we not grow more food for ourselves? Why are we nationally focused on beef production if it is so bad for our emission targets and so unviable financially for farmers anyway? Drive the length and breadth of the country and all you will see are green fields of grass - where is the arable farming?

    The cynic in me comes to the conclusion that we don't want to reduce waste or save energy... as long as we can tax and charge for it, we can try to beat down the consumer, without actually helping them to reduce waste by eliminating it at source in the first place.

    I am convinced that despite my best efforts at recycling and energy saving, I will be paying more for less forever.... more charges for less waste disposed and more cost for less electricity used. The commercially driven models will not introduce price competition and are not consumer focused. Does anyone believe that waste and energy companies are interested in the consumer using less of their services?

    In short... the government needs to take more direct responsibility for the situation and be more directly involved in management of the solutions - they can't sub contract their way out of the challenges ahead by trusting our future to commercial enterprises.... the current approach is to drive change from the bottom rung of the ladder by hammering the consumer financially in the hope that they will drive change upward. That is not going to work.



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  • Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A very informative post. That's a great point about the goal being to'retain' the Earth as it is. The planet, like everything else, will never stay the same. It seems to me there is no way humans can just tweak a few personal behaviour patterns and hope to change the course of the entire planets ecosystem. They might delay the temperature rise for a while but they cannot just pause a planet indefinitely.

    By ramping up the fear factor there is a danger they will try some extreme action that could cause far more harm than good.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 990 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    What we have here is media driven climate change hysteria driving mostly young girls into actual hysteria, depression and anxiety. Do these young girls ever ask themselves why 40 year old men are not quite as concerned. Does one have to be a teen girl in order to understand the climate models?

    We have to remember that climate is by far the most difficult system to model accurately. Garbage in, garbage out comes to mind. We should also be wary of bias and conflict of interest. Any paper from a climate scientist is hardly going to conclude anything other than catastophy on the way, in which case his funding should be increased, right? The people to listen to are the physicists and other mathematicians without skin in the game, ie their funding does not depend on the outcome of the study. When we examine those people's views there is much more debate. A little more cynicism please from the youngsters.

    And finally, what did models from 1990 say about 2020? Bet they said something like sea levels could be 1m higher by 2020. I believe the true rise in sea levels since 1990 is around 8cm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    We need another few wars to trim the number of people on the planet. Currently too many.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    A lot of Africans have 5, 6, 7, 8 kids because of the mortality rate. If they have multiple kids, at least some should survive to look after them in old age.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,956 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Oh wow, 1.5°C and really low levels of atmospheric CO2 historically, I'm so scared.... not.

    Reconstruction-of-CO2-and-temperature-over-the-Earths-history-This-does-not-indicate-a.jpg




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    What a judgemental attitude. Ireland had a sky high fertility rate just a few decades ago and we wouldn't have taken kindly to being sneered at by others then I'd imagine. I am in favour of aiming for greater development and education which will over time lead to falling birthrates. Bear in mind that having more children makes sense in countries with high child mortality and largely agricultural societies where young people can help with chores.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,436 ✭✭✭Austria!


    Yes, absolutely. It is by a distance my main concern in life. What else even matters? People having big conversations on boards about multiculturalism, or government events or a united Ireland. All of it is going to be completely irrelevant if we don't solve this.

    And it would be depressing enough if we were all out trying, but many people can't face a bleak reality, instead demeaning themselves with nonsensical responses like saying they want everyone in the world to die because of Paul Murphy and transgenders, or people used to think the world was flat so why would we believe any facts.

    I have a job and am paying money into a pension, but I wonder should I bother with either of those things. Maybe I should drop out and become a full time activist or try to influence the political process? I don't really know where to start with that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,524 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    The arrogance of people like you is just staggering.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Part of the problem of convincing a population they need to change is evidence of an actual plan and the actions that go with it. All we get is Ryan making alarmist declarations. I notice that the Guardian today is wall to wall climate disaster. It ends up as just another way of frightening people.

    I'd like to see some indicators, even in this budget, as to what it is we need to do and how much it’s going to cost us. All we got so far is a road map of sorts with some vague aspirations. it's not that there's a lack of urgency to it , it's that there's a lack of what it means to an ordinary person. Until we get to that point it will be people stridently demanding changes but nobody knowing what they look like.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    I don't disagree but its a bit more nuanced than that. Its easy to blame the western world for it and our consumption habits but I'd reckon there is a sizable portion of the population who hasn't a clue what palm oil is nor the damage that's caused in its cultivation. Perhaps were they to see it first hand it might change their habits, perhaps not. Part of the reason for its increased demand actually is cause its seen as a "green" biofuel which something like 5-10% has to be added to fuel here to make it more "environmentally friendly". The irony. The true villain's I suppose are the corporations who pursue the profit at all costs model which is causing it, then throw back a token reforestation project for good PR.

    Whilst some of the locals are upset over the havoc wreaked there (I was talking to a good few who were quite upset over it), they ultimately have a higher standard of living (some of the jeeps I saw there, I'd only seen in the states, F150s and the like) and more cash in their pocket. All in the name of progress. Ultimately they'll have to deal with the consequences and at the moment they don't see many of the negatives.



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