Are you concerned about the destruction of the natural world and climate change?

is_that_so

We have a new plan coming in the autumn says MM, jauntily named The Climate Action Plan 2021!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/new-climate-plan-will-set-out-fresh-targets-in-every-sector-says-taoiseach-1.4643765

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734186#Comment_117734186

Fabulous. Has a quote in the article from Paschal that carbon taxes are going up up up. Be prepared to pay through the nostrils in the name of "climate action". Their only plan is to always get the average Joe to pay more of their hard earned.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733968#Comment_117733968

If we had the old Boards I'd probably be able to find a post I made on one of the Greta threads in which I outlined a number of things, but, in the absence of that, here are some quick things that I think we should do.

Let me start by doing something everyone will love in creating another political structure to oversee it. Let's appoint them the Minister for Sustainability.

Promote walking/cycling/public transport/car sharing/car pooling where possible in all instances ahead of single person private car use.

Ban single use plastics in all cases where doing so does not create a health risk. Stop arguing about plastic/paper/reusable straws and have no straws and serve drinks in to reusable cups the customer owns with an open lid or spout or whatever they want to drink from. Ideally we'd have similar for takeaway food portions or pay more to eat in and use washable dishes.

Plant natural native forests in every inch of the country where the land is publicly held and currently not in use. Offer incentives for private land owners to do the same thing.

Create initiatives for the further installation of energy saving options whether it be insulation, windows, solar panels etc.

Block the installation of further data farms which provide minimal employment at a massive energy cost.

Commit to shutting down Moneypoint AND replacing its output in a reasonable fashion, or prevent introducing future demand until the energy can be supplied in a more sustainable fashion.

Introduce legislation that every product sold above a certain value should be repairable both in availability of parts, and practicality to do so.

Find a way to bring farmers on board for more sustainable practices and/or alternative food sources. Because of the EU (which being a member of is much more positive than negative) we probably can't ban the import or increase taxes on foods which are shipped from abroad but could be grown here but I think something like that would help keep food sources local and seasonal which might become an option for farmers as an alternative to beef production.

On that note, penalise food producers for wasted produce. 54% of all bread apparently never makes it to a plate. Find a way to reduce this whether it be getting people to accept 'less aesthetically pleasing food' or forcing producers to be more efficient and streamlined in their manufacturing processes.

Dramatically Increase taxes on fast fashion clothing items encouraging people to purchase more natural, long lasting items.

Have an ongoing communication and advertisement drive on current and future initiatives detailing what is being done, what benefits we are seeing and what is next. If there are no benefits, don't hide from this, acknowledge it and reassess.

I'm not suggesting the above will fix all problems, or that they will be acceptable to everyone but you asked me to name some things which could be done, and these are just some of them. 50% of all car journeys are less then 5 miles I think it is (very doable on a bike) and the average car spends 92% of its time sitting parked. Is it worth their total expenditure just to have that flexibility of driving when you want particularly when in areas where there is public transport, you would probably be faster taking the bus or cycling than being in a car.

The idea is, if we do what we can, where we can, we are in a better position to pressure other countries to do so rather than small countries saying there's no point us doing anything while US and China are polluting, and large countries saying why should we do anything when small countries won't.

I'm partly joking about the Minister for Sustainability the Minister for the Environment is the obvious person but there needs to be joined up thinking between Agriculture, Transport, the Environment, Trade etc etc etc. Heretofore, the issue of the climate has been treated like a bad smell, it needs attention, but only for long enough that people stop thinking about it. That's no longer the case.

Spudmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734206#Comment_117734206

Case in point regarding taxes...

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734206#Comment_117734206

I'm less concerned about the up and up of taxes as I am about the "where's the plan and what do we need to do" part.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734206#Comment_117734206

I saw this coming about a decade ago and made plans to emigrate, which are now in play.

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734206#Comment_117734206

Any money has to be ring-fenced, no cronies can be involved in any projects, basically a blacklist of all current government contractors

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734211#Comment_117734211

ESB have committed to shutting down moneypoint and replacing with moneypoint one and two which are offshore wind farms.

https://www.moneypointoffshorewind.ie/

I wonder will it ever happen as there’s bound to be objections as with every major infrastructure project in Ireland.

that’s a problem that really needs to be looked at.

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734228#Comment_117734228

The only plan is how to remove money from your pocket and put it in some cronies pocket,

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719573#Comment_117719573

A big +1 to that.

Personally,I far more concerned about the mass manipulation of docile humanity into ythe welcoming arms of the Big Pharma's or whichever crowd is on hand to fleece us all.

The Planet will shake us off,long before we threaten the Planet in any meaningful way.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734280#Comment_117734280

Is that not what the planets doing now?

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734267#Comment_117734267

Doesn't carbon tax just go straight into the infamous general pot? Don't expect that to change.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734211#Comment_117734211

A lot of these actions would have major benefits and some would be easy to implement. Unfortunately though the politicians are going to use climate change to increase taxes instead and allow destruction of the environment to continue.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734293#Comment_117734293

It's all about getting us to part with cash. More tax and if you want to get some insulation or solar panels installed at home, yep you need to shell out big time for that and hope to get back a small portion of it in some grant. Cost of public transport continues to go up and those smart meters being installed must be the biggest con job going. The smart "green" electricity plans are more convoluted and worse value than the traditional electricity rates.

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719879#Comment_117719879

It's definitely noteworthy,that the current "Message" appears to be focused on keeping the Lower Orders in their home parishes once more,twee calls to Staycation and upselling the attractions of places we already have prior experience of.

There is a definite sense of superiority and "Dieu et mon Droit" about some of the players in this production.

Like you,I & my family do our small bit to follow the rules as they emerge,yet I see my dutiful actions becoming ever more expensive,as in Bin Collection,Electricity,Gas,Petrol, all of which have never been more ecological in general use.

Humanity is based on,and benefits from, Curiousity and the willingness to travel to explore the World we inhabit...long may that continue.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734293#Comment_117734293

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734325#Comment_117734325

We get to vote for politicians at the local, national and EU level at least every 5 years.

The Greens are the only ones who give this topic any serious consideration, and they get pilloried for doing so.

FFS/FG/Labour/PBP/SF, stand aside and point at the Greens and accuse them of raising taxes without providing any alternative to the fundamental problem and then watch the public rip the Greens to pieces on that basis. Such as happens on this platform.

If the public showed an interest in fixing the problem, we'd get the politicians who then delivered in this direction but this problem is so big and each person so small that many people convince themselves that there is nothing they need to change personally and that others need to come up with pain free solutions.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734362#Comment_117734362

The Greens under Eamon Ryan are little different to the other parties that you have mentioned. They prioritise tax like the rest.

Dr. Bre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734265#Comment_117734265

Nowhere is safe allegedly

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720153#Comment_117720153

"Islands that could block migration"........😲...WTF....did I just read that ?

The very folks that are lobbying for a return to the outside toilet,and coarse woven geansái's are usually to be found in the vanguard of demonstrations against Direct Provision,Repatriation or any attempt to deviate from the 200,000 new arrivals per anum once espoused by Mary Harney as being a good thing for l'il ole Ireland.

With sizeable chunks of indigenous North Africa very definitely indicating their preference for the more bohemian European lifestyle,I wish Britain & Ireland well in their attempts to cope with the New World Order (Post Apocalypse).

Spudmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734362#Comment_117734362

Again it comes down to money, but truth be told money could be worth nothing in years to come. What good is money when you've nothing worthwhile to spend it on.

Think you gave some good suggestions a few posts back, many of which are negligible in terms of cost in the grand scheme of things. If I was to put in succinctly I'd say that realistically we need to pay the carbon cost associated of our choices. We need to stop subsidizing industries which follow bad practices and start subsidizing those which follow proper ones.

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721099#Comment_117721099

Yet,Ireland largely ignores the single greatest source of renewable,readily available energy on the Planet,our sea's.

Ireland really should have been putting resources into Current Generated electricity for the past few years,by surveying and ientifying undersea sites for generators which could be connected into our National Grid.

Sadly,we followed the masses along the windpower road,which although definitely a niche methodology,simply cannot deliver the reliability required by a modern consumerist society....unless of course,we rediscover the benefits of tallow....?

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722922#Comment_117722922

I concur.....

It was the "people like you" bit that decided me 🙄

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734439#Comment_117734439

Green hydrogen is the answer to wind power intermittency.

Build a large amount of excess generation of wind.

use excess to make green hydrogen via electrolysis.

when wind is not meeting demand, convert green hydrogen back into electricity.

you can also use G.H in gas turbines to lower the percentage of natural gas needed.

GH also has uses in the HGV and boat/ship/tanker market.

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723563#Comment_117723563

How many Chinese will you kill,if You Kill their economy.

Do you perceive the ordinary Chinese person as disposable if that leads to your clean economic rebirth ?

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723678#Comment_117723678

But,governments ARE doing things about saving the environment,not as much as You want,but then these Governments also have to do other stuff,like providing Healthcare,Pensions,Electricity,gas and other fripperies in demand from their electorates.

Take a look at photo's and video clips of Dublin in the rare oul times,see the smoke bellowing out of exhausts and from cyclists mouths,look at the filith of the streets and the still occupied tenement buildings devoid of "facilities",or does that in some way not reflect progress ?

In real terms we Irish have never had it better,and long may it continue.

We are all only a Euromillion win away from that Business Jet ourselves.

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734601#Comment_117734601

Picking up a lot of this from the hard extinction rebellion types, some bordering on the s#### you'd expect from Gemma and her kind

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726504#Comment_117726504

Ah come on .....You started the thread in a seemingly open discussive manner,but when your POV was'nt universally shared you now want to expel the contrarians ?

That's the type of activity which destroys civilizations with far more success than CO2...🙄

RandomViewer

Midnight Oil's Beds are Burning is over 30 years old, decent song but the sentiment us wearing thin, maybe someone should send the IPCC some new tunes,

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726822#Comment_117726822

Would this be 100% of ALL Scientists,everywhere ?

It's like the TV adverts suggesting that 95% of Women prefer a certain skin cream....with,in VERY small type at the butt end of the clip,the revelation of the sample size 95% of 85 women polled.

Your point regarding the Scientific consensus is valid,even though it is only very recently that Scientists,like ourselves,had any real access to mass instant communication via the Internet.

A Scientist of the 16th century stood a far greater chance of being burned at the stake,than of ever meeting another Scientist !

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734601#Comment_117734601

What do you think is in the end game if we, as a planet, stay on our current trajectory of unsustainable practices?

Every country, not just the Chinese need to consider the implications of not just being driven by sales/profit/growth as we have been for 50 years.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734580#Comment_117734580

Very expensive and very inefficient. You lose a huge amount of the electricity you initially generated by firstly doing electrolysis (which is very energy intensive) and then converting the hydrogen back into electricity.

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728916#Comment_117728916

You bet there is !

Take a look at the bogeyman Col Gadaffi and his Bis Scale plans for irrigating his desert country....

https://www.water-technology.net/projects/gmr/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man-Made_River

https://theecologist.org/2015/may/14/war-crime-nato-deliberately-destroyed-libyas-water-infrastructure

However,Gadaffi's removal was necessary for the People of Libya to thrive & prosper in a new free environment.......😕

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734733#Comment_117734733

Doesn’t matter if it’s excess as I stated.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734628#Comment_117734628

Photos of Dublin in the 50s and 60s had loads of men and women cycling around the city centre, just normal people, and not traffic choked streets, there's plenty of footage. It's way worse now for pedestrians and cyclists when it comes to exhausts spewing fumes down your throat.

We missed a trick by focusing on private cars and building society around them, that's why we don't have great public transport, and outside of Dublin it's almost non existent. Trying to change that now is very difficult because any restriction of cars goes against the culture we've created in the last decades and there's murder.

I don't really know how to measure progress, GDP is bullsh*t, but it seems to be all our leaders care about. Worldwide we need to find some kind of equilibrium with nature, and some way of most people having a decent standard of living without raping the planet.

Unless aliens come down or The Enterprise intervenes like they do in The Next Generation sometimes when a planet's on the brink, the future is war torn and bleak.

Jizique

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734950#Comment_117734950

Define “excess”.

Jizique

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734580#Comment_117734580

That is bonkers - it might work, emphasis might, in Spain or North Africa with solar, but can’t work here, given the cost of offshore in the Atlantic.

Anyway, electrolysers don’t operate stop-start, they need to be run continuously.

Build a battery - build a f@cking battery. Great idea. Next.

The big pushers of hydrogen are the oil and gas companies - I have doubts about BEV for everything but all car companies are giving hydrogen a miss (Toyota not quite yet) and even the truck companies are more BEV than hydrogen.

oh yeah, build a battery. Why has nobody anywhere built a battery (of meaningful scale) to store excess electricity? I would not waste rare renewable on hydrogen. German coal use for electricity generation is up 37% this year - should renewables not be used to offset this rather than “hydrogen”?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734803#Comment_117734803

Yes, I know. They did the same thing in Serbia over Kosovo..massive destruction of infrastructure, which affected the civil population. and is against the Geneva Conventions. As they say, all is fair in love and war...and all sides in a conflict will target Hospitals, Water infracture etc. Khadaffi was not the big bad bogeyman he was portrayed by the media.. (and neither was he a Saint.)...but his biggest crime was wanting to have an alternative world currency. He had to go.

Cilldara_2000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734712#Comment_117734712

The link I posted set out this:

"The consensus among research scientists on anthropogenic global warming has grown to 100%, based on a review of 11,602 peer-reviewed articles on “climate change” and “global warming” published in the first 7 months of 2019."

100% of 11,602 articles is a fair whack IMO.

riclad

We have maybe 5 years left to change our use of oil diesel coal before climate change becomes unstoppable, eg stop all fracking , oil exploration, use of coal mining switch to solar power wind power etc

Will this happen its unlikely how can we force country's like Russia Iran Turkey China to change their whole energy output look at USA the most popular cars and trucks are large wasteful in terms of using oil and petrol. one example the latest consoles Xbox ps5 use way more energy than an older model ps3, xbox360 big corporations are allowed to pollute rivers with chemicals and maybe pay a small fine. buildings are not even being designed to use recycled materials phones are designed to last 2 years and then buy a new one we have Western country's Russia China the middle east getting them to agree to anything is almost impossible country's like saudia Arabia are run by cronyism certain prince's get contracts and political power etc China is the major next superpower so ending billions on weapons planes tanks rockets it'll probably invade Taiwan at some point

Saving the planet us not its first priority we should be spending billions on building safe nuclear reactors one example the winter crisis in Texas cost billions because there's no regulations to force power company's to winterize the power network if we look at the tech we have now solar power is cheaper than coal if company's who use coal did not get tax breaks

The problem is in 10 years times there'll be rising sea levels mega fires and droughts and it, ll be too late to change our energy use some places will become unliveable due to lack of water and rising temperature

It's hard to live and work in places where its 100 degrees plus

Iran is one example now due to climate change and bad management its running out of water due to economic sanctions it will be very hard to build a whole new water infrastructure

Does our education system even adress green issues or climate change at all?

Or do we spend more resources on teaching Irish which maybe a few per cent of pupils speak after they leave school Politicans think maybe 2 to 3 years ahead most Politicans do not think 5 to 10 years ahead

Eg if we do not adress climate change we will be facing wars and serous conflict over acess to water and basic resources I can see no reason to be optimistic America can basically print money and they have only started to adress climate change most small country's are just trying to survive the pandemic and rebuild the economy

There's hope in that we can plant more trees and build tech devices to capture carbon but will that happen before it's too late

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117736054#Comment_117736054

Did you read the article (or the paper)? It isn't quite the positive you think - just less negative.

Here's the last two paragraphs:

"The vegetation cooling effect is large from the energy dissipation perspective, but only about 10%-20% compared to the pace of global warming. The cooling effect from greening is less significant in tropical forests with high leaf areas.

“This is a warning sign about climate change. We should be cautious that the rainforests, which are at the forefront of the fight against global warming, are reaching the limits of their capacity to absorb carbon and cool the surface.” commented Dr. Rama Nemani, from NASA’s Ames Research Center

Roger_007

I sometimes wonder how much all these people who want to ‘save’ the planet have considered the consequences of what they are advocating. They tend to advocate policies that are contradictory to each other.

They want to restore the forests which have been cleared and the wetlands which have been drained and the wild areas that have been cultivated. They want to ban the use of artificial fertilisers and herbicides and insecticides. Where do they think that all the food is going to be grown to feed an ever increasing world population?

They want to to have a basic standard of infrastructure for all the people in the world, houses, schools, hospitals, roads and railways; yet they want to curtail the production of cement which they claim is one of the chief culprits in global warming.

They ignore entirely the fundamental problem at the root of all the world’s environmental issues and that is the burgeoning human population.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737115#Comment_117737115

Well a lot of forests have been cleared for animal feed or animals, we don't need to eat as many as we do, so I guess we have to find a balance and grow whatever food takes up the least space and does the least amount of polluting damage.

The population isn't going to be controlled any time soon, so that's an issue too, feeding the population in the most effective way is what is required.

Weather could start to F up our current agricultural output here in Ireland very soon, are there any contingency plans in place? We currently focus on beef and dairy but what if the means to produce it start to go awry in the coming years, more flooding, more droughts, less grass etc. Sh*t could get real very quickly.

Dyr

I've had a lifetime of predictions of eco disaster none of which came to pass

If the climate lobby were gamblers they'd all be in the poorhouse.

Spudmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737115#Comment_117737115

From what I've seen the only form of agriculture that's in anyway sustainable is a regenerative one, something along the lines of permaculture which uses natural processes to capture rainfall and keep it in the soil, using nitrogen fixing plants or green manure and environmentally friendly ways of eliminating the effects of pests. Traditional industrial farming has proven itself to be busted flush. Its requiring more and more inputs for less and less outputs. There isn't really much point pursing a system which can provide for 10 billion people for 20-30 years. There are plenty of examples where people have turned around completely inhospitable places into once again productive land. See the SEKEM project in the Egypt, the Loess Plateau in China. It took major persuasion to convince people that they needed to plant their fertile soil with trees etc but its completely transformed the area. Topsoil was retained, vegetation increased, the land became more productive and their incomes doubled.

Regarding concrete/cement. I don't think anyone would suggest completely getting rid of it, maybe some would. But the material has no water absorption properties (not that you'd want it) so is a disaster with heavy rainfall. It absorbs heat in places with high temperatures, this makes places urban areas much more uncomfortable to live. I don't think that we should not use it but clearly it should be used in a smarter way. Incorporate it as one of these cities of the future we constantly see, like Singapore. I've seen images lately of two streets in the same city on the same day, one with trees/vegetation lining it, the other without and in many cases there is a 5-10°C difference between the two. One is eminently livable, the other is not.

Thelonious Monk

And our solution to flooding is pouring concrete around our rivers, yikes

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117737972#Comment_117737972

Hole in the ozone was the big one I remember, we'll be sunburned to death by 1992,

Different agriculture suits different climates. If there is less grass there will be less rain and ireland will be more suitable for horticulture.

At present the majority of Ireland is very suitable for ruminants ideally cattle /cows / goats / sheep due to grass growth. It does not suit horticulture so much due to fungus/dampness and temperature.

Agricultire adapts to climate.

I do see positive changes but it is impossible to turn back time. Technology associated with convenience doesn’t go away. People tend to look for more technology to solve this.

A lot of technology/progress has huge environmental consequences

Flushing toilet

Combustion engine

Internet

Slurry Tanks

Electricity

Plastic Packaging

Burning of coal/gas/oil

Factory procressed food

Goods made in factories

etc / etc

My ethos is do what you can i.e.

Vote wisely

Buy land if you can afford it

Have a composting toilet

Get solar panels

Burn wood for heating

Buy organic food

Grow your own or get involved in a community garden

Keep hens

Keep livestock regenerativly or buy organic meat /dairy

Buy as much food as possible from Ireland in season

Travel by train or ferry or bus

Have an electric car

Buy second hand clothes or only what you need

Plant fruit trees and bushes

Limit your car journeys

Buy packaging free if possible

Have as few as possible electrical devices

Buy energy from a green supplier if possible.

Plant trees

Use eco friendly cleaning products.

Be involved in your local community for a local social life / to improve it.

Do I do all of the above ? No but they’re things to aim for and I have achieved a few.

Don’t take life too seriously. Do what you can and try to encourage people. I find it works better than doom.

Living requires resources. This is a fact.

Am I worried about impending doom? No but I am concerned about the environment and I try to do my best. Life is also pretty damn good in Ireland at the moment in my opinion.

no famine and no war - ☺️

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117738801#Comment_117738801

Didn't we fix that by cutting out on the CFCs?

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-56014092

We took action to eliminate or at least substantially reduce the damage.

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739027#Comment_117739027

Half the world ignored it, you can still get CFC aerosols in Asia, F