Marvel's Black Widow

santana75 · 16-07-2021 4:59pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117613617#Comment_117613617

I'd agree with that. Its bad, and I dont say that lightly. Waiting for the extra scene after the credits its unreal to see how many people worked on this movie. And I have no doubt they worked very hard and very long hours. Which makes it more painful that the finished product is so poor. Its the story thats the problem.......there is no story and without an engaging plot, it doesnt matter about anything else really. Saw the fast and the furious 9 a couple weeks back and Black widow makes that movie look like The Godfather.

expectationlost · 16-07-2021 5:59pm

what was the point of the prison escape scene?

santana75 · 17-07-2021 8:41am

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117622897#Comment_117622897

I think you're seeing completely different reviews than the ones I read because the critics were falling over themselves trying not to say anything that could in any way be perceived as not bigging up the female leads.

notahappycamper · 17-07-2021 10:06am

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117613699#Comment_117613699

Agree with this. Hoping it would be great but no, it is poor. Some scenes I felt there was an awkwardness between the actors. I dunno, there has been sooooo many MCU films at this stage, is it time to just stop?

notahappycamper · 17-07-2021 10:47am

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117623280#Comment_117623280

Yeah, sorry fan boy.

notahappycamper · 17-07-2021 12:06pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117623384#Comment_117623384

I merely asked the question…

notahappycamper · 17-07-2021 1:28pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117623572#Comment_117623572

No such thing.

joe40 · 17-07-2021 1:43pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117623220#Comment_117623220

I thought the movie was fine. Fairly typical marvel fare at this stage. I like the them, especially as family movies. I'm certainly not a fan but you can always be sure of reasonably good movie with MCU. I know they're formulaic but there is still a market for movies like that.

pixelburp · 17-07-2021 2:22pm

If you think it's time for the MCU to stop, regardless of one's position - it only reveals being shielded from reality. Obviously the poster hadn't heard of Phase 4 😁

AMKC · 17-07-2021 3:26pm

Just a tip for anyone who has not yet seen Black Widow or has decided to go see it a second time. There is a post credits scene. I only heard about myself of the brother who just told me. Raging as when the film credits started to roll at the cinema I was in they turned on the lights straight away so I assumed there was none.

Brian? · 18-07-2021 8:56am

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117623280#Comment_117623280

I wish this was an option. I've 2 boys, 10 and 8, I'm going to have to sit through the absolute pony that is the MCU for a while yet.

I read this thread because I'm a massive Scarlett Johansson fan. She's a wonderful actress, when given something to work with. She is wasted in the MCU. I was hoping they may have changed this with her own film. Pity they didn't get Taiki Wahtiti to direct it, Jojo Rabbit was amazing and Thor Ragnorak is actually a good film.

pixelburp · 18-07-2021 5:46pm

I thought this showed both the strengths and weaknesses of the MCU as a whole myself, so it won't challenge anyone's confirmation bias; but as I feared, it had an inescapable sense of redundancy throughout, given it was the franchise's first proper prequel.

To the good: the direction during the quieter character moments was strong, while even the action itself was decent for once, with a PG13 crunchiness in its first fights. The set-pieces more likely helmed by Cate Shortland herself were well staged; in fact, it served as reminder that the Russo's might be masters of logistics, but they're dreadful directors of chaos. Shortland showed a much better head for geography and impact, the camera never truly losing its mind through cuts and hyperactivity.

To the bad though: even after all that excellent, low stakes thrill of the MI or Bourne lineage, the finale of CGI destruction hit like whiplash, the biggest hat-tip of executive privilege stressed into the script. And foreshadowing with a clip from Moonraker ultimately felt like I was a little lamp-shaded when the location was revealed. I know the automatic response - that's the brand, what do you expect! - and that's fair to a point, but when the rest of the film did solid work to distance itself from the tropes, to drop the ball at the end disappointed. Some of the quippy patter was crudely inserted in places and undermined the tone of the aforementioned character moments. Again, that's the brand but it has been done better.

On the whole though, I enjoyed it way more than I expected - but respect too why it might have frustrated others.

Ray Winstone's accent though. Ye gods. Why hire the most English of actors to then have him play Russian??

Gbear · 19-07-2021 1:14pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628629#Comment_117628629

The last act truly was garbage.

It's not that the fight scenes before were totally reasonable, but they were reasonable enough. They also tried to do this see-sawing Ocean's 11-style reverse plot reveal thing, and invented a plot device and then resolved it within 30 seconds with Ray Winstone's magic smell.

That stuff only works when you work it into the plot earlier so you can actually register its effect, and don't know how it's going to be resolved. Then you can be surprised when you're shown the flashback outlining the plan, and get to experience momentary dramatic irony before it jumps back to the present and the plot point is resolved. It's like they wrote themselves into a corner, and realised they had an explosion quota to meet, and another 15 minutes of film to fill up.

I really really hated the line about the only unlimited resource being young girls. That's not a thing that makes any sense to say. He may as well have twirled his moustache and said "I sure do like killing puppies".

"Watch this giant corporate behemoth punch misogyny in the face, literally! Girl Power!" Also, watch these long shots following Scarlett Johansson's arse.

I also don't see the point in getting a bunch of English and American actors to put on Eastern European/Russian accents. The only one who's actually from that neck of the woods in the film didn't even get any lines. This surely didn't need to be a vehicle for David Harbor. At least with the Winter Soldier, they got a guy who can actually speak about 12 languages and is from Eastern Europe.

In its own right, it was passable. As an element of the ongoing story of the MCU, it was largely pointless. It would've been slightly better if it had been released after Civil War, but it quite possibly would've been a different film then.

pixelburp · 19-07-2021 3:33pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117631972#Comment_117631972

I've seen it said now a few times in recent years that "pre-vis" is what's killing these sorts of blockbusters from an authorial point of view; that before the nominal director has stepped onboard, various set-pieces have been workshopped, pre-visualised and locked in - so at best the 2nd Unit director might have some work but the FX heavy stuff requires little from the director. I'd be genuinely surprised if Shortland had any hand in that last act, beyond those brief interstitials between CGI ScarJos leaping about. What made the difference here was that in the downtime you could clearly see the director's talents at work, making the dissonance between the Quiet & Loud more overt than other directors in the MCU stable.

As to Ray Winstone: the annoying thing is he is a good actor, he's just not the man you call when you vant a Rrrushan acksunt cor blimey. Funny how in 2021 so much is frowned on yet funny accents are still OK. But like you said the actual character itself was so badly constructed, that's the real offence. Nothing to say beyond "evil man hates women, please boo". Which, ya know. Fine. Trafficking is a scourge, and something that needs more light shone on it - but I don't think Black Widow is the medium to challenge it either. Mad Max: Fury Road was no less subtle in a women-as-things narrative, but handled it with more brio and intelligence. If the script had the nerve to have a last-minute twist that shock ...

Taskmaster wasn't under the influence of the dust & just really hated Natasha 'cos she blew her up, ruining her life ...

I think that might have been a more interesting take on the story; especially given Black Widow was supposedly coming to terms with her past. I suppose blowing up a kid was bad enough, but the last act felt like a Get Out Of Jail Card at the same time. Maybe.

The Red Letter Media review joked about how Winstone's character kinda, sorta looked like Martin Scorcese, wondering if this was a wink towards his comments against the Marvel movies. Probably not, but still...

Gbear · 19-07-2021 8:21pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117632943#Comment_117632943

Even if you look at Thor: Ragnarok - what I think is genuinely good on the merits as a comedy adventure film, and not just enjoyable mush you stuff into your eyes, the weakest parts are, by a distance, the fight scenes, other than the one between Thor and the Hulk, which is probably down to the non-fighty stuff in that scene - the cutaways to Tom Hiddleston, and the one-way conversation Thor is having with the Hulk.

I don't know whether they did the same system of divided labour between the "filmy" stuff being done by the director, and the "explodey" stuff done by some egg-heads, but at any rate, the quality of the film was in how it played to the strengths of the cast and the director.

I don't know if that's always been a problem, and I don't think it was the case for the Russo Brothers films - whatever you think about them, I don't think there's the same sense of detachment from the action in those films.

It seemed like they didn't want to have a situation where Romanoff could be anything other than perfectly heroic. Yes she blew her up, but she saved her in the end, so all's well that ends well, right?

The alternative, giving Taskmaster agency, and her having chosen to work for her father, would've robbed Romanoff of the chance to make amends. All she could do then would be to kill her, preventing any more harm, which is maybe too morally ambiguous for a Marvel film. I was actually surprised they even had her kill a child (even if it turned out not to have stuck).

With the sort of rotund, scraggly greying beard thing going on, I assumed it was more a Weinstein jab.

I don't think the way you have a jab at people who make snobbish criticisms about your films is to portray them as human traffickers.

StringerBell · 20-07-2021 12:46am

Found it fairly boring tbh, overlong and the final part of the film was ridiculously bad. Started alright and I do enjoy Scarlett Johansson but there was very little for her to do here. The sister was the one with the push I assume they will have her in films at some point replacing Scarlett?

Having adolescent kids isn't all its cracked up to be folks, been some very enjoyable MCU films don't get me wrong, this just wasn't one of them.

silverharp · 20-07-2021 11:26am

not a horrible film just boring and a bit meh, interesting start to see where it might be going, just fell apart after that , no real momentum in the film. Kids would be bored with this too with the lack of pace. And let me get this straight, the Widows are female because there are too many girls? what kind of weird ass writing is that?

Looks like it might struggle to turn a profit, it had a huge 2nd week drop off.

Lujan · 20-07-2021 11:56am

I found it pretty poor.

Weak enough story, plenty of pointless filler, poor fights.

Wasn't expecting much from the movie, but was still disappointed.

Shame because I have enjoyed all of the other MCU movies

pixelburp · 20-07-2021 12:41pm

It's funny how often the villain seemingly fails to register in the scriptwriter's priorities - or Feige I suppose - if we're talking about where the creative buck stops. I guess they're simply a means to an end with the series, a figurative or literal obstruction for the hero's goals as part of the big FX set-piece in the 3rd act. The obvious, big exception being Thanos - and the few times a film gets to craft a decent villain (ala Killmonger in Black Panther). And when they ARE half-decent, they're invariably killed off.

I wonder if Feige or somebody has ever commented or talked candidly on the subject; lord knows the superhero genre is kinda known for its structure of Hero vs. Villain, and for all the things the MCU does right it's a consistent wrinkle for me.

fritzelly · 21-07-2021 3:52am

Was an ok film - not much to choose from at the mo in terms of entertainment so maybe I'm ranking it higher than it deserves

Not something I would bother giving a second watch

The family dynamic scenes were a bit ridiculous - trying to be funny but were just stupid

kerplun k · 22-07-2021 9:53am

The Good: Cate Shortland, Florence Pugh and Scarlett Johansson. Out with the old and in with the Pugh.

The Bad: The villains.

The Ugly: CGI and that awful sky fight. I didn’t think they could top the Black Panther one, but hey, there you go.

silverharp · 22-07-2021 1:39pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSKRQWFAXcQ

pixelburp · 22-07-2021 1:44pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117645387#Comment_117645387

The ugly CGI was especially annoying given how many times this movie got its release bumped back; there was plenty of time to fine tune the FX once the original release date was CoVid'ed. They must have had it "complete" before the first release date, and a standard rush job at that.

johnny_ultimate · 22-07-2021 1:50pm

I think the big CG finale is more irksome in this case because the car chase shows you can have these characters in a more grounded, down-to-Earth action set piece - something particularly fitting for a non ‘super-powered’ hero like Black Widow or Hawkeye.

pixelburp · 22-07-2021 1:53pm

The MCU films have much of its set pieces locked in through pre-vis stages; I doubt many of its directors bar perhaps Gunn and Wahtiti, maybe the Russo's, have an active hand in the FX heavy action scenes. It's a rumour/open secret going around that marvel discourage its directors from "doing" the action (and apparently another director in line for Black Widow said as much, after she expressed enthusiasm to helm those parts).

Gender has nothing to do with it TBH, and if anything Shortland obviously showed chops with the more physical scenes such as in Budapest. A finale of physical stuntwork would have been awesome; while the Moonraker finale, I'd put money on being shielded from those pesky onset creatives.

johnny_ultimate · 22-07-2021 2:59pm

Yep, it's a shared problem across pretty much every single MCU film. For me, it stands out more in Black Panther and Black Widow as those are two of the only films in the franchise I actually kinda like as standalone films (alongside the likes of Thor Ragnarok) - but both of which are regrettably undermined by particularly generic MCU third acts.

pixelburp · 22-07-2021 3:16pm

It was irritating me who the other director was; the one offered the Black Widow gig before Cate Shortland got it - so dug it out: Lucrecia Martel (Zama). By her words, she sounded pretty stoked to direct BW, but went cold when she was told she wouldn't have any hand in the action scenes.

https://www.slashfilm.com/black-widow-director-lucrecia-martel-marvel-action-scenes/

“They also told me, ‘Don’t worry about the action scenes, we will take care of that.’ I was thinking, well I would love to meet Scarlett Johansson but also I would love to make the action sequences.

Companies are interested in female filmmakers but they still think action scenes are for male directors. The first thing I asked them was maybe if they could change the special effects because there’s so many laser lights. I find them horrible. Also the soundtrack of Marvel films is quite horrendous. Maybe we disagree on this but it’s really hard to watch a Marvel film. It’s painful to the ears to watch Marvel films.”

The second paragraph suggests she might have been a little too eager to shake up the formula a little, but does go some way to show just how set in stone set-pieces are. Martel could have had some interesting, imaginative set-pieces in mind but nope, just do the talky bits please. Another article I'm reading claims Winter Soldier had 90+ minutes of previs. That's crazy stuff - especially given that was one of the relatively more ground-level films. To be fair, for something as humungous as Infinity War, it made total sense to previs every last minute.

https://www.insider.com/marvel-plans-movies-action-scenes-years-before-filming-previs-visualization-2021-1

johnny_ultimate · 22-07-2021 3:25pm

Lucrecia Martel has a much stronger visual storytelling signature than Shortland, so not surprising at all she clashed with the studio.

I always go back to Edgar Wright - the one working director perhaps most naturally suited to bringing a Marvel comic book style to life, but hit 'creative differences' with the studio. How Chloe Zhao's Eternals fares is perhaps the most interesting lingering question, as someone with such distinct arthouse sensibilities has yet to take on one of these films.

pixelburp · 22-07-2021 4:15pm

The trailer was very evocative of Zhao's style, but then if what we know continues to hold true, presumably whatever big set pieces mark Eternals' major narrative moments will have been agreed upon with or without the director's thoughts. And given that film looks more steeped in the magical and uncanny, there may even be more previs than something like Black Widow.

But hey: the MCU have their formula, and I'm not naive to think Phase IV is going herald some giant experimental swing away from what has clearly worked very well for the studio. Really the only grumble is when a movie swerves one way, then 180s back to type by the movie's end.

It'll be interesting to see if Sam Raimi's noted creative flair will find itself in the Dr. Strange sequel; that's one director who has a distinct bag of visual tricks - not unlike Edgar Wright - so we'll see if the final film has any reflection of that.

Effects · 22-07-2021 4:52pm

I watched this over the weekend while I was working. It was grand, and some bits were better than others. I heard someone earlier saying the prison scene was pointless, but i thought it was fun. But it was mainly there as a CGI set piece.

I've never really liked Scarlet Johansson as an actor, and I think Florence Pugh showed her up in a lot of the scenes.

David Harbour was brilliant though, played his character really well.

Ray Winstone, I just don't understand why he was cast if he couldn't pull off the accent.

Marvel's Black Widow

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