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Average V Median wage Ireland?

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Comments

  • #2


    salonfire wrote: »
    That's the worse of both worlds. Paying pen-pushers who won't work a minute past 7.24 hours exactly - due to be even less in the next agreement - far more than necessary. Then limiting those with leadership and managerial talent leaves the PS struggling to recruit people with the right skills at the upper end.

    As a some-time contractor of services to various arms of the public service, I can say with all honesty that some of the most able and strategic people I've collaborated with have been in the public service. They are straight-jacketed by increasingly onerous and more time sapping legislation, in many sectors, that limits innovation and ability to be reactive.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    Yeah okay! But what about the f/t office receptionist or a junior nurse or the countless others earning 30k or less? How do you think they must feel being told they're earning not much more than half what the "average" f/t worker is earning?


    By the way, the "average person" is now supposedly earning almost 50k.


    In regards to the junior nurse, you can inform them they have guaranteed increments, across-the board raises, shift allowance, possible location allowances. Just in case they did not know.

    There you go. You just brightened up some nurse's day.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    Yeah okay! But what about the f/t office receptionist or a junior nurse or the countless others earning 30k or less? How do you think they must feel being told they're earning not much more than half what the "average" f/t worker is earning?


    By the way, the "average person" is now supposedly earning almost 50k.

    pretty strange examples, someone starting their career being on half of the average wage doesn't sound insane? You could have used accountant, engineer or IT consultant either btw.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    Yeah okay! But what about the f/t office receptionist or a junior nurse or the countless others earning 30k or less? How do you think they must feel being told they're earning not much more than half what the "average" f/t worker is earning?


    By the way, the "average person" is now supposedly earning almost 50k.


    Numbers dont lie.
    I'm on a lot more than that but there are others in my field and elsewhere earning a heck of a lot more than me. There's others too earning less. I can't get "upset" about "how I feel" if someone is on double my salary. They obviously negotiated better or had better credentials or some other plethora of reasons.


    The mean average is just under 50k so if someone is earning 30k then factually speaking they are 20k under the mean.


    I suspect the median FT earnings would be lower but still above 30k. 30k is quite a low salary for anyone with a qualification or experience tbh.


  • #2


    it's seems like some folk have made it their mission to turn every discussion on wages into a public sector bashing exercise to derail it.
    Ask them their own job , pay, pension though....


  • #2


    Of course people shouldn't think that the "average" ft wage is what most people are getting - but that is the perception. And Leo compounded that error by referring to the "average person" (whatever that is).

    The "median" ft wage is what we need to know - and it's not available.

    People guess that it's about 10/12k lower than the "average" ft wage - but we don't know.

    Even the CSO has not published the median ft wage.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    Of course people shouldn't think that the "average" ft wage is what most people are getting - but that is the perception. And Leo compounded that error by referring to the "average person" (whatever that is).

    The "median" ft wage is what we need to know - and it's not available.

    People guess that it's about 10/12k lower than the "average" ft wage - but we don't know.

    Even the CSO has not published the median ft wage.


    CSO doesnt have the data to publish it as most companies - especially larger ones - only report average/mean.
    The only people that could publish this would be revenue.


  • #2


    Treppen wrote: »
    it's seems like some folk have made it their mission to turn every discussion on wages into a public sector bashing exercise

    You're 100% right.

    Why do people just refer to the salaries of the junior nurse or the junior garda as a stick to bash the public sector as an Employer with? It simply isn't fair. The PS is a much better employer than that and does not deserve the constant bashing leveled towards it.

    Maybe these people could start referring to the salaries of the experienced nurse or CNMs to give a much clearer picture instead.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    Of course people shouldn't think that the "average" ft wage is what most people are getting - but that is the perception. And Leo compounded that error by referring to the "average person" (whatever that is).

    The "median" ft wage is what we need to know - and it's not available.

    Median earnings are published by the CSO.

    See here:

    https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/structuralearnings/

    Specifically, see this:

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/


  • #2


    Geuze wrote: »


    That's a model though not accurate. Most large companies report mean average earnings so even if CSO publish a "median" there's already some "mean" in there.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    The "median" ft wage is what we need to know - and it's not available.

    People guess that it's about 10/12k lower than the "average" ft wage - but we don't know.

    Even the CSO has not published the median ft wage.

    2018 median earnings = 592.60 per week, across all employments

    Mean = 740.72
    Median = 592.60


    You are looking for median earnings for FT workers, yes you are correct, I don't see that published.


  • #2


    ELM327 wrote: »
    That's a model though not accurate. Most large companies report mean average earnings so even if CSO publish a "median" there's already some "mean" in there.

    Huh? I don't get you?


  • #2


    That shows a median average of 30k, excluding some exclusions that need to be made for part time workers.
    Probably pushing it to 40k - 10k less than the mean, like we all suspected anyway


  • #2


    Geuze wrote: »
    Huh? I don't get you?


    Simple really.
    Company A has 1 CEO on €1 million and 99 employees on €10k.
    Company reports average salary of (1*1mm+99*10k)/100 to CSO


  • #2


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Simple really.
    Company A has 1 CEO on €1 million and 99 employees on €10k.
    Company reports average salary of (1*1mm+99*10k)/100 to CSO

    CSO Background Notes to Structural Earnings data:

    This release presents statistics on earnings based on administrative data sources. The primary data source is the Revenue Commissioner’s P35L dataset of employee annual earnings which is linked to CSO and other data to provide demographic breakdowns of earnings similar to those previously provided by the National Employment Survey (NES). This release does not replicate all the tables available from the former NES; it does not contain any breakdown of hours worked or hourly earnings.

    Methodology

    The results presented in this release are based on a data-matching exercise of three administrative data sources:

    The P35L files (employer end-of-year returns) of the Revenue Commissioners.
    The Central Records System of the Department of Social Protection.
    The Central Statistics Office’s Business Register.
    The linkage and analysis was undertaken by the CSO for statistical purposes in line with the Statistics Act, 1993 and the CSO Data Protocol available at: www.cso.ie/en/aboutus/csodataprotocol.

    Before using personal administrative data for statistical purposes, the CSO removes all identifying personal information including the PPSN. The Personal Public Service Number (PPSN) is a unique number that enables individuals to access social welfare benefits, personal taxation and other public services in Ireland. The CSO converts the PPSN to a Protected Identifier Key (PIK). The PIK is a unique and non-identifiable number which is internal to the CSO. Using the PIK enables the CSO to link and analyse data for statistical purposes, while protecting the security and confidentiality of the individual data. The P35L, CRS and CSO records were linked using the PIK for this project. All records in the datasets are anonymised and the results are in the form of statistical aggregates which do not identify any individuals.

    The publication tables in this release are provided by NACE economic sector, gender, age, nationality and region (residence) and are available on the CSO Statbank (CSO Main Data Dissemination Service). Average weekly earnings are provided and the information covers both the public and private sectors. Additional earnings analysis tables using the administrative data sources detailed above will be added to the CSO Statbank in the coming weeks.

    The Revenue Commissioners also publish data based on the P35L file under 'Schedule E' on the CSO Statbank. This includes mainly PAYE individuals but also includes non-PAYE income and records for married couples. The CSO analysis is for PAYE individuals only.


  • #2


    Geuze wrote: »
    2018 median earnings = 592.60 per week, across all employments

    Mean = 740.72
    Median = 592.60


    You are looking for median earnings for FT workers, yes you are correct, I don't see that published.


    When Leo (in '20) referred to the "average person" earning 47k per year (now raised to nearly 50k) he was specifically referring to ft workers. Most people understand "average person" to refer to "most people" or "median". But where did he get that figure of 47k? If it's available to Leo, why not us?
    And by the way, there's no way the median ft wage in 20 was 47k. If it was even 40k I'd eat my hat!


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    When Leo (in '20) referred to the "average person" earning 47k per year (now raised to nearly 50k) he was specifically referring to ft workers. Most people understand "average person" to refer to "most people" or "median". But where did he get that figure of 47k? If it's available to Leo, why not us?
    And by the way, there's no way the median ft wage in 20 was 47k. If it was even 40k I'd eat my hat!

    Are these incomes before tax?


  • #2


    Yyhhuuu wrote: »
    Are these incomes before tax?

    All wages/earnings/income published by CSO are always gross.

    Well, nearly all of the time.

    They do also publish disposable income.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    When Leo (in '20) referred to the "average person" earning 47k per year (now raised to nearly 50k) he was specifically referring to ft workers. Most people understand "average person" to refer to "most people" or "median". But where did he get that figure of 47k? If it's available to Leo, why not us?
    And by the way, there's no way the median ft wage in 20 was 47k. If it was even 40k I'd eat my hat!

    LV was quoting the mean earnings for FT workers, available here:

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2019/


    See table 5.

    2019 = 48,946 for FT workers.



    As we have discussed, median earnings for FT workers are not published by the CSO.

    Eurostat might have them.


  • #2


    Geuze wrote: »
    LV was quoting the mean earnings for FT workers, available here:

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2019/


    See table 5.

    2019 = 48,946 for FT workers.



    As we have discussed, median earnings for FT workers are not published by the CSO.

    Eurostat might have them.


    Politicians like to pretend everybody is doing really well - even if they're not. If the median was higher than the mean/average, then it's the median we'd all be hearing about.


    If Leo can give the average, then he can give the median. To calculate the average, he must know the total earned by ft worker and also the number of ft workers so he must know what the median is.


  • #2


    He is just quoting CSO stats.

    If the CSO published the median earnings of FT workers, we would all be using it, including LV.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    If Leo can give the average, then he can give the median. To calculate the average, he must know the total earned by ft worker and also the number of ft workers so he must know what the median is.
    No. We've been though this already, Benedict. Given the total earned by full-time workers and the number of full-time workers you can calculate the average (mean) earnings of full-time workers, but you cannot calculate the median earnings of full-time workers. You need much, much more data to calculate the median.

    Opinion-massaging aside, probably the main reason why the mean is quoted much more widely than the median is that it's much easier to calculate, and can be stated with much greater confidence.


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    Politicians like to pretend everybody is doing really well - even if they're not. If the median was higher than the mean/average, then it's the median we'd all be hearing about.

    Well if you could figure out how it could be calculated based on available data, it would help your case…. But crediting politicians with the ability to do so and then not use it, is giving them way to much credit.

    If you do a bit of googling you’ll find surveys suggesting that the average is about 49k and the median is about 62k. In any case it is meaningless as it fails account for expenditure, available public services etc.

    You need to find another measure to convince yourself that people are not doing so well.


  • #2


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    No. We've been though this already, Benedict. Given the total earned by full-time workers and the number of full-time workers you can calculate the average (mean) earnings of full-time workers, but you cannot calculate the median earnings of full-time workers. You need much, much more data to calculate the median.

    Opinion-massaging aside, probably the main reason why the mean is quoted much more widely than the median is that it's much easier to calculate, and can be stated with much greater confidence.


    We may well have been "through this already" but not with a satisfactory result.

    Of course you can't determine the median wages from a total amount earned by all ft workers. You need to know how many earned x and y etc. But this information has to be (and is) available to the authorities. Therefore the median can be calculated. Are you suggesting that nobody in authority can determine who earns what? The Revenue must have access to these figures - so are you suggesting that they won't disclose it to the CSO?


  • #2


    Again, we've been through this before, Bendict. Revenue figures don't distinguish between full-time and part-time workers.

    No doubt the median can be calculated - or, at least, estimated. It's a lot of work, requiring a lot of data, and probably doesn't have th precision that the mean earnings figure has. Someone may well have estimated it - if not the CSO then some academic economist who needs it for a model or for international comparisons. But it's not a figure that the CSO officially publishes or keeps up to date, presumably because it's not required for public policy purposes - or, at least, the utility it would have for public policy purposes doesn't justify the trouble and expense of compiling it and keeping it up to date.


  • #2


    Most people would agree that the median ft income figure is very important - arguably more important than the average because it's the median which gives the true level of income for most people. And yet nobody knows what it is!
    The following is a quote from the CSO:

    "Nearly two thirds (62.6%) of Irish households had a gross income of less than €60,000 in 2016. In contrast, only 14.1% had an income above €100,000,"

    They know what Dad and Mum earn between them - but they've no idea what Dad earns or Mam earns. Just what Dad and Mam earn!

    How did they know that 14.1% (not 14.2%) of households earned over 100k? These earners don't all work in the same company? The salaries had to be calculated by reference to each income.

    There's enough data out there to make Einstein's head spin - but they can't say what the median ft wage is? Even approximately?


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    Most people would agree that the median ft income figure is very important - arguably more important than the average because it's the median which gives the true level of income for most people. And yet nobody knows what it is!
    The following is a quote from the CSO:

    "Nearly two thirds (62.6%) of Irish households had a gross income of less than €60,000 in 2016. In contrast, only 14.1% had an income above €100,000,"

    They know what Dad and Mum earn between them - but they've no idea what Dad earns or Mam earns. Just what Dad and Mam earn!

    How did they know that 14.1% (not 14.2%) of households earned over 100k? These earners don't all work in the same company? The salaries had to be calculated by reference to each income.

    There's enough data out there to make Einstein's head spin - but they can't say what the median ft wage is? Even approximately?

    Tax returns are essentially done by household. Its not that complicated.

    They also don't/can't distinguish between full and part time workers.


  • #2


    fvp4 wrote: »
    There was the time bill gates goes into a pub...

    Or the fella whose job moved from England to Ireland and the average wage improved in both countries increased. /jk


  • #2


    Benedict wrote: »
    The Revenue must have access to these figures - so are you suggesting that they won't disclose it to the CSO?

    They can’t disclose, there is a thing called GDPR. It protects people’s privacy so no you are never getting access to people tax information.


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