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Average V Median wage Ireland?

Benedict

I keep seeing from Govt. figures that the "average" wage in 2020 was approx Euro 49,500 pa. and the average hourly rate is E24.50.

To my mind this is nonsense - just look up "Jobs.ie" and you will see that even 40k pa means you have to have lots of experience & qualification.

The MEDIAN wage is the one to look at - but I can't find it. Does anyone have stats on what is the median wage in Ireland (2020)?

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ELM327

Geuze wrote: »

Huh? I don't get you?

Simple really.
Company A has 1 CEO on €1 million and 99 employees on €10k.
Company reports average salary of (1*1mm+99*10k)/100 to CSO

Geuze

ELM327 wrote: »

Simple really.
Company A has 1 CEO on €1 million and 99 employees on €10k.
Company reports average salary of (1*1mm+99*10k)/100 to CSO

CSO Background Notes to Structural Earnings data:

This release presents statistics on earnings based on administrative data sources. The primary data source is the Revenue Commissioner’s P35L dataset of employee annual earnings which is linked to CSO and other data to provide demographic breakdowns of earnings similar to those previously provided by the National Employment Survey (NES). This release does not replicate all the tables available from the former NES; it does not contain any breakdown of hours worked or hourly earnings.

Methodology

The results presented in this release are based on a data-matching exercise of three administrative data sources:

The P35L files (employer end-of-year returns) of the Revenue Commissioners.
The Central Records System of the Department of Social Protection.
The Central Statistics Office’s Business Register.
The linkage and analysis was undertaken by the CSO for statistical purposes in line with the Statistics Act, 1993 and the CSO Data Protocol available at: www.cso.ie/en/aboutus/csodataprotocol.

Before using personal administrative data for statistical purposes, the CSO removes all identifying personal information including the PPSN. The Personal Public Service Number (PPSN) is a unique number that enables individuals to access social welfare benefits, personal taxation and other public services in Ireland. The CSO converts the PPSN to a Protected Identifier Key (PIK). The PIK is a unique and non-identifiable number which is internal to the CSO. Using the PIK enables the CSO to link and analyse data for statistical purposes, while protecting the security and confidentiality of the individual data. The P35L, CRS and CSO records were linked using the PIK for this project. All records in the datasets are anonymised and the results are in the form of statistical aggregates which do not identify any individuals.

The publication tables in this release are provided by NACE economic sector, gender, age, nationality and region (residence) and are available on the CSO Statbank (CSO Main Data Dissemination Service). Average weekly earnings are provided and the information covers both the public and private sectors. Additional earnings analysis tables using the administrative data sources detailed above will be added to the CSO Statbank in the coming weeks.

The Revenue Commissioners also publish data based on the P35L file under 'Schedule E' on the CSO Statbank. This includes mainly PAYE individuals but also includes non-PAYE income and records for married couples. The CSO analysis is for PAYE individuals only.

Geuze

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/backgroundnotes/

The CSO background notes don't suggest that each firm submits a mean figure?

Benedict

Geuze wrote: »

2018 median earnings = 592.60 per week, across all employments

Mean = 740.72
Median = 592.60

You are looking for median earnings for FT workers, yes you are correct, I don't see that published.

When Leo (in '20) referred to the "average person" earning 47k per year (now raised to nearly 50k) he was specifically referring to ft workers. Most people understand "average person" to refer to "most people" or "median". But where did he get that figure of 47k? If it's available to Leo, why not us?
And by the way, there's no way the median ft wage in 20 was 47k. If it was even 40k I'd eat my hat!

Yyhhuuu

Benedict wrote: »

When Leo (in '20) referred to the "average person" earning 47k per year (now raised to nearly 50k) he was specifically referring to ft workers. Most people understand "average person" to refer to "most people" or "median". But where did he get that figure of 47k? If it's available to Leo, why not us?
And by the way, there's no way the median ft wage in 20 was 47k. If it was even 40k I'd eat my hat!

Are these incomes before tax?

Geuze

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

Are these incomes before tax?

All wages/earnings/income published by CSO are always gross.

Well, nearly all of the time.

They do also publish disposable income.

Geuze

Benedict wrote: »

When Leo (in '20) referred to the "average person" earning 47k per year (now raised to nearly 50k) he was specifically referring to ft workers. Most people understand "average person" to refer to "most people" or "median". But where did he get that figure of 47k? If it's available to Leo, why not us?
And by the way, there's no way the median ft wage in 20 was 47k. If it was even 40k I'd eat my hat!

LV was quoting the mean earnings for FT workers, available here:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2019/

See table 5.

2019 = 48,946 for FT workers.

As we have discussed, median earnings for FT workers are not published by the CSO.

Eurostat might have them.

Benedict

Geuze wrote: »

LV was quoting the mean earnings for FT workers, available here:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2019/

See table 5.

2019 = 48,946 for FT workers.

As we have discussed, median earnings for FT workers are not published by the CSO.

Eurostat might have them.

Politicians like to pretend everybody is doing really well - even if they're not. If the median was higher than the mean/average, then it's the median we'd all be hearing about.

If Leo can give the average, then he can give the median. To calculate the average, he must know the total earned by ft worker and also the number of ft workers so he must know what the median is.

Geuze

He is just quoting CSO stats.

If the CSO published the median earnings of FT workers, we would all be using it, including LV.

Peregrinus

Benedict wrote: »

If Leo can give the average, then he can give the median. To calculate the average, he must know the total earned by ft worker and also the number of ft workers so he must know what the median is.

No. We've been though this already, Benedict. Given the total earned by full-time workers and the number of full-time workers you can calculate the average (mean) earnings of full-time workers, but you cannot calculate the median earnings of full-time workers. You need much, much more data to calculate the median.

Opinion-massaging aside, probably the main reason why the mean is quoted much more widely than the median is that it's much easier to calculate, and can be stated with much greater confidence.

Jim2007

Benedict wrote: »

Politicians like to pretend everybody is doing really well - even if they're not. If the median was higher than the mean/average, then it's the median we'd all be hearing about.

Well if you could figure out how it could be calculated based on available data, it would help your case…. But crediting politicians with the ability to do so and then not use it, is giving them way to much credit.

If you do a bit of googling you’ll find surveys suggesting that the average is about 49k and the median is about 62k. In any case it is meaningless as it fails account for expenditure, available public services etc.

You need to find another measure to convince yourself that people are not doing so well.

Benedict

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. We've been though this already, Benedict. Given the total earned by full-time workers and the number of full-time workers you can calculate the average (mean) earnings of full-time workers, but you cannot calculate the median earnings of full-time workers. You need much, much more data to calculate the median.

Opinion-massaging aside, probably the main reason why the mean is quoted much more widely than the median is that it's much easier to calculate, and can be stated with much greater confidence.

We may well have been "through this already" but not with a satisfactory result.

Of course you can't determine the median wages from a total amount earned by all ft workers. You need to know how many earned x and y etc. But this information has to be (and is) available to the authorities. Therefore the median can be calculated. Are you suggesting that nobody in authority can determine who earns what? The Revenue must have access to these figures - so are you suggesting that they won't disclose it to the CSO?

Peregrinus

Again, we've been through this before, Bendict. Revenue figures don't distinguish between full-time and part-time workers.

No doubt the median can be calculated - or, at least, estimated. It's a lot of work, requiring a lot of data, and probably doesn't have th precision that the mean earnings figure has. Someone may well have estimated it - if not the CSO then some academic economist who needs it for a model or for international comparisons. But it's not a figure that the CSO officially publishes or keeps up to date, presumably because it's not required for public policy purposes - or, at least, the utility it would have for public policy purposes doesn't justify the trouble and expense of compiling it and keeping it up to date.

Benedict

Most people would agree that the median ft income figure is very important - arguably more important than the average because it's the median which gives the true level of income for most people. And yet nobody knows what it is!
The following is a quote from the CSO:

"Nearly two thirds (62.6%) of Irish households had a gross income of less than €60,000 in 2016. In contrast, only 14.1% had an income above €100,000,"

They know what Dad and Mum earn between them - but they've no idea what Dad earns or Mam earns. Just what Dad and Mam earn!

How did they know that 14.1% (not 14.2%) of households earned over 100k? These earners don't all work in the same company? The salaries had to be calculated by reference to each income.

There's enough data out there to make Einstein's head spin - but they can't say what the median ft wage is? Even approximately?

Podge_irl

Benedict wrote: »

Most people would agree that the median ft income figure is very important - arguably more important than the average because it's the median which gives the true level of income for most people. And yet nobody knows what it is!
The following is a quote from the CSO:

"Nearly two thirds (62.6%) of Irish households had a gross income of less than €60,000 in 2016. In contrast, only 14.1% had an income above €100,000,"

They know what Dad and Mum earn between them - but they've no idea what Dad earns or Mam earns. Just what Dad and Mam earn!

How did they know that 14.1% (not 14.2%) of households earned over 100k? These earners don't all work in the same company? The salaries had to be calculated by reference to each income.

There's enough data out there to make Einstein's head spin - but they can't say what the median ft wage is? Even approximately?

Tax returns are essentially done by household. Its not that complicated.

They also don't/can't distinguish between full and part time workers.

3DataModem

fvp4 wrote: »

There was the time bill gates goes into a pub...

Or the fella whose job moved from England to Ireland and the average wage improved in both countries increased. /jk

Jim2007

Benedict wrote: »

The Revenue must have access to these figures - so are you suggesting that they won't disclose it to the CSO?

They can’t disclose, there is a thing called GDPR. It protects people’s privacy so no you are never getting access to people tax information.

Geuze

Benedict,

you may be interested to know that Eurostat publish median annual earnings data for FT workers.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/labour-market/earnings/database

In 2018, the figure is 40,074.
EARN_SES_ANNUAL

There you go, there is the figure you wanted.

Geuze

Jim2007 wrote: »

They can’t disclose, there is a thing called GDPR. It protects people’s privacy so no you are never getting access to people tax information.

Revenue provide earnings data to the CSO.

See here:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/

The Earnings Analysis using Administrative Data Sources (EAADS) publication presents earnings statistics compiled based on administrative data sources for the period 2011 to 2018. The primary data source is the Revenue Commissioner’s P35L dataset of employee annual earnings. This is linked to CSO's Business Register and other data to provide economic and demographic breakdowns of employee earnings in Ireland. Please refer to the background notes of this publication for further information on the data sources utilised and how they were matched.

Geuze

We can now compare the 2018 mean annual earnings from the CSO with the median annual earnings from Eurostat.

All for FT workers.

2018 CSO mean = 47,596

2018 Eurostat mean = 49,790
2018 Eurostat median = 40,074

Eurostat covers these sectors:
[B-S_X_O] Industry, construction and services (except public administration, defense, compulsory social security)

Benedict

Geuze's link https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpub...tasources2018/ finally shows the median wage for ft workers in Ireland. The figure is for 2018 but it shows that the median is available. See copied & pasted below from CSO.

"Total median annual earnings were €36,095 in 2018"

The background notes show that it refers to ft workers.

This is what the "average person" earned and it sure as hell hadn't jumped to 47k by '20 - or 49k in '21.

(ie the "average person" with a ft job - which many people don't have. The median income would be much lower if it included unemployed, retired and part-time etc.)

Geuze

Benedict,

the CSO Earnings Analysis using Administrative Data Sources 2018 does not refer to FT workers, where are you seeing that?

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/backgroundnotes/

Look at the section on Annual Earnings, I see no mention of FT/PT?

I see everything else: age/sex/county/sector, etc., but not full-time/part-time.

Benedict

Geuze wrote: »

Benedict,

the CSO Earnings Analysis using Administrative Data Sources 2018 does not refer to FT workers, where are you seeing that?

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/backgroundnotes/

Look at the section on Annual Earnings, I see no mention of FT/PT?

I see everything else: age/sex/county/sector, etc., but not full-time/part-time.

I noticed under exclusions it said "employments where the duration was less than two weeks in the year." I took this to mean full time but yes, I see what you mean, one could work 50 weeks part time?

If it does include part time, then if X works 1 hour per week for 50 weeks in the year, his few quid would be factored into the "median" figure?

This means that median figure quoted by CSO actually means nothing - so we are back to where we started.

Geuze

Benedict,

notice in the CSO Earnings Analysis using Administrative Data Sources 2018 that they refer to employments.

Many people have more than one employment, bear that in mind.

I used to have two employments for several years.

My retired father has a pension, but in some years he also has two employments.

Life is not simple.

Regarding your previous post, see this:

Exclusion of employees from earnings data:

For the purposes of this analysis the CSO excluded employees earning less than €500 per annum and employments where the duration was less than two weeks in the year. Also excluded were secondary employments earning less than €4,000 per annum, extremely high earnings values and missing employer and employee reference numbers. Employment activity in NACE sectors A, T and U has also been excluded from the analysis.

Geuze

Benedict wrote: »

I noticed under exclusions it said "employments where the duration was less than two weeks in the year." I took this to mean full time but yes, I see what you mean, one could work 50 weeks part time?

If it does include part time, then if X works 1 hour per week for 50 weeks in the year, his few quid would be factored into the "median" figure?

This means that median figure quoted by CSO actually means nothing - so we are back to where we started.

If somebody has low annual earnings, it doesn't affect the median.

That is the main advantage of the median over the mean.

The median is not affected by outliers.

If you are asking, is somebody who earns 100 per week / 5,000 per year, included in these stats, then the answer is yes.

They are included, and so they pull down the mean annual earnings.

They do not have any direct effect on the median.

But they are included in all the data used to calculate the median, because the median here is across ALL workers.

Peregrinus

Benedict wrote: »

I noticed under exclusions it said "employments where the duration was less than two weeks in the year." I took this to mean full time but yes, I see what you mean, one could work 50 weeks part time?

If it does include part time, then if X works 1 hour per week for 50 weeks in the year, his few quid would be factored into the "median" figure?

This means that median figure quoted by CSO actually means nothing - so we are back to where we started.

It doesn't mean nothing. It's not the answer to the question you're asking, but that doesn't make it meaningless.

Benedict

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117611020#Comment_117611020

Benedict

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117600058#Comment_117600058

It may well be the case that Revenue cannot disclose salary details of individuals due to GDPR restrictions. But that would not prevent them from handing over anonymous statistics. If GDPR prevented them from handing over any information on earnings - even anonymous information - to the CSO, then the CSO would know practically nothing.

crossman47

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117603277#Comment_117603277

Are you ever going to give up? How could an earnings series include retired and unemployed? By the way, Eurostat do not carry out surveys. Their figures come from a survey carried out by CSO.

Benedict

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117640918#Comment_117640918

With respect, it's not clear to me how your contribution relates to anything I've said? I'm not talking about pensions or Eurostat?

Two things are required to calculate a median ft wage. (1) The number of people in ft employment, (2) How much each of them is earning (just a statistic, no ID needed). For the "average" to be known, (1) must be known. Revenue must know the answer to (2) and giving figures to CSO without ID does not breach any privacy rules.

So what's the problem?