EU Lead Ammunition Ban

Cass · 28-06-2021 4:02pm

berettaman wrote: »

EU are banning lead for their own reasons. Don't tell me that its because of lead poisoning.?

If they were serious about environmental impact and other such "concerns" then this would not be happening:

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hardly surprising that the cops and armies are exempt....

IOW we're [EU] concerned of the impact hunter/shooters have on the environment, but not so much that we'll cost ourselves billions in forced changes to ammunition, like the way we are forcing citizens to (cos, you know, they'll have to pay for it themselves).

Bog Trotter99 · 28-06-2021 8:32pm

Can I ask why a solid copper or thicker copper coated steel or tin bullets couldnt replace lead bullets. I know that copper is making over £5000 per ton scrap at moment. But that might just improve your aim. Just wondering why a thicker copper jacket over base metal cannot work in standard guns.

tudderone · 28-06-2021 9:27pm

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Can I ask why a solid copper or thicker copper coated steel or tin bullets couldnt replace lead bullets. I know that copper is making over £5000 per ton scrap at moment. But that might just improve your aim. Just wondering why a thicker copper jacket over base metal cannot work in standard guns.

I know someone in Scotland using solid copper bullets for a decade now. He reckons they are the business, kills deer just as good as anything else, lead included. So deer stalkers are fine. But someone heading to the midlands to send a few hundred rounds downrange, its going to be expensive. Plus i hear copper rounds in .22lr are not good accuracy-wise, maybe that will improve with developement, but plinking away a brick or two at the range with the 10/22 will also be expensive.

BattleCorp · 28-06-2021 9:35pm

tudderone wrote: »

I know someone in Scotland using solid copper bullets for a decade now. He reckons they are the business, kills deer just as good as anything else, lead included. So deer stalkers are fine. But someone heading to the midlands to send a few hundred rounds downrange, its going to be expensive. Plus i hear copper rounds in .22lr are not good accuracy-wise, maybe that will improve with developement, but plinking away a brick or two at the range with the 10/22 will also be expensive.

While the ban of lead in bullets is the mid to long game, the short game is lead shot in wetlands. And you can't really coat lead shot with copper, can you?

And if it's environmental protection you are after, copper ain't that good for wetland flora either.

Bog Trotter99 · 28-06-2021 9:37pm

tudderone wrote: »

I know someone in Scotland using solid copper bullets for a decade now. He reckons they are the business, kills deer just as good as anything else, lead included. So deer stalkers are fine. But someone heading to the midlands to send a few hundred rounds downrange, its going to be expensive. Plus i hear copper rounds in .22lr are not good accuracy-wise, maybe that will improve with developement, but plinking away a brick or two at the range with the 10/22 will also be expensive.

I understand but there is no reason why one metal will be less accurate than another.........basically.

The problems arise in this case with bullets of the speed of the bullet not suiting the rifling. But this can be overcome usually.

Being as range lead is all confined and not over water then there is no reason why lead cannot be used and easily recovered. So the cost does not increase for range shooters.

Copper is similar in weight to lead.

tudderone · 28-06-2021 9:44pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

While the ban of lead in bullets is the mid to long game, the short game is lead shot in wetlands. And you can't really coat lead shot with copper, can you?

And if it's environmental protection you are after, copper ain't that good for wetland flora either.

I think you can yes, also Nickel plated shot. I dunno how well it performs on game, and what the issues are with it though.

Bog Trotter99 · 28-06-2021 9:45pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

While the ban of lead in bullets is the mid to long game, the short game is lead shot in wetlands. And you can't really coat lead shot with copper, can you?

And if it's environmental protection you are after, copper ain't that good for wetland flora either.

You could I suppose do anything but will it be cost effective.

Copper as I have said all metals are bad in large enough quantities. Copper poisoning occurs through industrial and through ingestion of contaminated substances. I do not think copper is absorbed by drinking water the same as lead.

One way of spraying spuds for blight was and is to use a copper solution as copper is anti-fungal. It is in the form of copper sulphate but I think you have to watch over use.

tudderone · 28-06-2021 9:49pm

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

I understand but there is no reason why one metal will be less accurate than another.........basically.

The problems arise in this case with bullets of the speed of the bullet not suiting the rifling. But this can be overcome usually.

Being as range lead is all confined and not over water then there is no reason why lead cannot be used and easily recovered. So the cost does not increase for range shooters.

Copper is similar in weight to lead.

Lead = 11,370 Kg/M3

Copper = 8,900 Kg/M3

Bog Trotter99 · 28-06-2021 9:50pm

tudderone wrote: »

I think you can yes, also Nickel plated shot. I dunno how well it performs on game, and what the issues are with it though.

Again Nickel can be toxic. But then kids of my age swallowed the odd sixpence and some Granny's even swallowed them in their Christmas pudding.

Bog Trotter99 · 28-06-2021 9:51pm

tudderone wrote: »

Lead = 11,370 Kg/M3

Copper = 8,900 Kg/M3

Its as close a metal you will get next to gold.

BattleCorp · 28-06-2021 9:52pm

tudderone wrote: »

I think you can yes, also Nickel plated shot. I dunno how well it performs on game, and what the issues are with it though.

You are indeed correct.

https://fieldsports-journal.com/article/copper-coated-shot-demystified

Bog Trotter99 · 28-06-2021 9:53pm

When I was a apprentice if you were welding metals like copper, you got extra money and a free bottle of fat milk. I will let you google to find out why.

tudderone · 28-06-2021 9:59pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

You are indeed correct.

https://fieldsports-journal.com/article/copper-coated-shot-demystified

The thing is though would that shot be allowed ? It still contains lead

SVI40 · 28-06-2021 10:04pm

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

I understand but there is no reason why one metal will be less accurate than another.........basically.

Eley have been working on a lead replacement for .22 for some time now, and have not got anything that comes close to lead for accuracy.

Bog Trotter99 · 28-06-2021 10:07pm

As far as I can see and its great to be popular.

That really if they did ban lead then we could still use copper bullets and possibly even copper shot.

The charge of cartridges can be adjusted to suit rifling and gun proofing and I imagine in a lot of cases this is overcome.

Shooting cost would go up but when did they ever come down and some kinds of shooting costs would go through the roof.

So on that thought which is meant to be constructive and not piss anybody off, I can't see how they could bring in a back door ban of guns, because by banning lead projectiles, they are solving nothing.

Bog Trotter99 · 28-06-2021 10:11pm

SVI40 wrote: »

Eley have been working on a lead replacement for .22 for some time now, and have not got anything that comes close to lead for accuracy.

The metal does not make the accuracy. In fact a metal which could be machined would be far more accurate than a moulded metal like lead.

Also if you were making other types of bullets like copper, you would not cast them. They would be pressure formed. So perfect. Actually a lot of lead is pressure formed anyway now.

Lead bullets were given a copper jacket for one of the reasons, to stop them disintegrating on high velocities.

tudderone · 28-06-2021 10:12pm

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

As far as I can see and its great to be popular. That really if they did ban lead then we could still use copper bullets and possibly even copper shot.

The charge of cartridges can be adjusted to suit rifling and gun proofing and I imagine in a lot of cases this is overcome.

Shooting cost would go up but when did they ever come down and some kinds of shooting costs would go through the roof.

So on that thought which is meant to be constructive and not piss anybody off, I can't see how they could bring in a back door ban of guns, because by banning let projectiles they are solving nothing.

There would be a lot of people who just couldn't be bothered to get rid of a gun they have been shooting decades and buying something new they don't really want. They'd say feck it and pack it in altogether.

Paying a lot more for ammunition thats nowhere near as good as the old stuff, not so much stalkers like i said, but target shooters would be affected.

The whole thing is a crock of old poop, its annoying millions of people for next to no gain in reality.

Bog Trotter99 · 28-06-2021 10:14pm

tudderone wrote: »

There would be a lot of people who just couldn't be bothered to get rid of a gun they have been shooting decades and buying something new they don't really want. They'd say feck it and pack it in altogether.

Paying a lot more for ammunition thats nowhere near as good as the old stuff, not so much stalkers like i said, but target shooters would be affected.

The whole thing is a crock of old poop, its annoying millions of people for next to no gain in reality.

I know it is but I was trying to point out it wouldnt be the end of the world or shooting.

tudderone · 28-06-2021 10:15pm

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

The metal does not make the accuracy. In fact a metal which could be machined would be far more accurate than a moulded metal like lead.

Also if you were making other types of bullets like copper, you would not cast them. They would be pressure formed. So perfect. Actually a lot of lead is pressure formed anyway now.

Lead bullets were given a copper jacket for one reason to stop them disintegrating on high velocities.

Eley know how to make accurate ammo, with things like Tenex prove that. If they are having difficulties getting copper accurate, then thats a warning its not good.

Bog Trotter99 · 28-06-2021 10:18pm

tudderone wrote: »

Eley know how to make accurate ammo, with things like Tenex prove that. If they are having difficulties getting copper accurate, then thats a warning its not good.

I would like to see that info because I cannot believe one metal in the form we are talking about is less accurate than another.

Pressures and rifling yes, but metals as bullets no. So correct me and give me a link to the info.

Bog Trotter99 · 28-06-2021 10:24pm

I just google ****e on copper bullets. I can find nothing by Eley but the only stuff on copper verse lead bullets on accuracy is that copper being lighter is more subject to wind over distance. So this is same as the .17hmr v .22wmr argument.

Yes lighter bullets are less accurate than heavy ones when the wind is involved as it always is. But that isnt a metal issue that is a weight issue.

cookimonster · 28-06-2021 10:55pm

Lead is a heavier and more dense metal than copper. This means when 150 grain bullet is made without a lead core it will need to be longer than a traditional lead core bullet of the same weight. ... Generally speaking longer copper bullets need to be spun faster to stabilize versus the lead core counter parts.

So the solution that is been offered, which also seems to ensure proper expansion on smaller game animals, is to use a light-for-calibre bullet. For example instead of using a 150 or a 180-grain copper bullet in .308, it is recommended to use a 130-grain bullet. This is now a fast moving bullet that will not blow up on impact but expand and retain weight. This may not go down well with those who advocate that bullets should break up after penetration.

So what I'm interested in is that many calibre configurations have certain sweet spots in relation to grain weight. For example the 130 grain. 270 is a classic and in order to achieve the same grain weight with copper I'll need a longer bullet to do so. Will all 270 accept longer bullets for cambering or even magazines. If I go down a weight then will the barrel life of my rifle shorten. To accomplish comparable use will I need to go to 150gr copper bullets and in turn will I now have an issue with over penetration and poor expansion. Certain calibres will embrace a range of bullet weights but are we going to be pushed down the road to specific bullets that have a narrower field of use.

BattleCorp · 28-06-2021 11:11pm

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

I would like to see that info because I cannot believe one metal in the form we are talking about is less accurate than another.

Pressures and rifling yes, but metals as bullets no. So correct me and give me a link to the info.

I suppose this counts as an accuracy related answer but when compared to lead, steel shot certainly isn't as good. It drops like a motherfcuker when compared to lead. I posted test videos a good while back in this thread. There are also question marks regarding it's ability to humanely kill whatever it hits.

tudderone · 28-06-2021 11:36pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

I suppose this counts as an accuracy related answer but when compared to lead, steel shot certainly isn't as good. It drops like a motherfcuker when compared to lead. I posted test videos a good while back in this thread. There are also question marks regarding it's ability to humanely kill whatever it hits.

Bismuth shot is excellent, maybe better than lead, but the price of it is eyewatering.

SVI40 · 29-06-2021 12:31pm

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

The metal does not make the accuracy. In fact a metal which could be machined would be far more accurate than a moulded metal like lead.

Well, maybe pop them an email letting them know

. No idea if their information is in the public domain, I go this from my friend who works there.

Bog Trotter99 · 29-06-2021 12:38pm

SVI40 wrote: »

Well, maybe pop them an email letting them know . No idea if their information is in the public domain, I go this from my friend who works there.

Then post any links so we can all have a look instead of keeping it between yourselves.

Grizzly 45 · 29-06-2021 12:42pm

tudderone wrote: »

Bismuth shot is excellent, maybe better than lead, but the price of it is eyewatering.

It's also a by-product of, guess what?...LEAD manufacturing:)

SVI40 · 29-06-2021 12:44pm

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Then post any links so we can all have a look instead of keeping it between yourselves.

Like I said, I do not know if the information is in the public domain.

Grizzly 45 · 29-06-2021 12:56pm

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

The metal does not make the accuracy. In fact, a metal that could be machined would be far more accurate than a moulded metal like lead.

Also if you were making other types of bullets like copper, you would not cast them. They would be pressure formed. So perfect. Actually, a lot of lead is pressure formed anyway now.

Lead bullets were given a copper jacket for one of the reasons, to stop them from disintegrating on high velocities

.

So which metal on the periodic table has the same characteristics as lead without its toxicity. Only one science has found so far is Au..aka Gold. We've heard of "the man with the golden gun",but the man with the golden bullets...?:D

True machining would be more accurate,but is it cost-effective? And if so why isn't it being done already. Ditto pressure forming?

Also,is it a good idea to be firing mass amounts of copper into the environment?Remember the EU can come back on this legislation once they have "scientific evidence" that any alternative is damaging the environment and ban that too?

Other likkle problem is this; Your reloading tools and set-up is going to be JUNK,as it cant reload lead alternative bullets.

That is still a classified process by the ammo makers, and they aren't going to be releasing the tools and dies to the market for a good while yet.So you are going to be stuck with factory loads, or nothing...Something the F class boys might take aboard here too perhaps?

Grizzly 45 · 29-06-2021 1:13pm

Bog Trotter99 wrote: »

Can I ask why a solid copper or thicker copper-coated steel or tin bullets couldn't replace lead bullets. I know that copper is making over £5000 per ton scrap at moment. But that might just improve your aim. Just wondering why a thicker copper jacket over base metal cannot work in standard guns.

The question is . Will it kill as well on the other end?It might work fine for punching holes in paper.But will it drop an animal cleanly and humanely? You want an energy dump from a lead bullet, that isn't fully encased in a copper jacket AKA a Full Metal Jacket [FMJ] which is a military round designed and mandated for military use, and also prone to richoect.

That's why hunting rounds usually, have a lead tip exposed out of the jacket to mushroom and deform. It's also why they are illegal to use by armies[but not police forces!] under the Hauge convention governing the rules of war...

Also covering a steel core in copper is creating a literal Armour piercing round,as is using a pure steel round.ammo which is also illegal under EU legislation.:)

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