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EU Lead Ammunition Ban

  • #1
    Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ badaj0z


    The proposed ban on the use of Lead Ammunition will effect all users of Firearms, including those who only shoot targets. At worst, it will stop you using your firearms totally. At best, it will cost you a lot more money in both ammo costs and the cost of your club having to install lead traps, if possible. The FACE organisation has put together a survey to get information to fight the ban. Response from Ireland so far is low so please follow the link and complete the survey.
    Many see this lead ban as a sneaky way to get all private use of firearms banned. You should read the available debates in the media and come to your own conclusion on this.


    https://www.face.eu/2020/12/hunters-survey-on-lead/


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Comments







  • Its apathy. I am sick saying to lads whats happening, and all i get back is "Ah shure it'll never happen", and the other doozy "Its uninforceable". If the eu ban the manufacture and importation of lead ammo, its gone.




  • Its apathy. I am sick saying to lads whats happening, and all i get back is "Ah shure it'll never happen", and the other doozy "Its uninforceable". If the eu ban the manufacture and importation of lead ammo, its gone.

    The lead ban thread has been going for quite a while. There have also been a few threads in that time with people asking advice about a new rifle they're about to get - I'm going off memory so not going looking for links here - Either about different makes of gun and/or calibre to go for. I think I am yet to read one of these where the long term prospects of the new gun have been questioned by the poster or by the people replying giving advice in regards to the lead ammunition ban. Either people simply don't care, are aware but as mentioned think "sure it'll never happen" or lastly, are still ignorant of the potentially impending doom.

    If it comes in then anything used for hunting that is over .22 calibre is going to have to use lead free in 24 months (6 month consultation period + 18 month lead in time). Picking numbers off the top of my head here for an example - if somepne's using a .308 with 150 grain bullets, they're going to have to get used to shooting something around 100 grain for lead free (roughly). If they want to continue using 150 grains then the bullet will have an increased length and therefore will most likely require a faster twist rate barrel to stabilise it. I haven't seen anything like this being discussed here yet. Another example might be what happens to the .17HMR in 5.5 years when the ban is in in place for small calibres? Anyone like to shoot a 9 grain bullet?* Haven't seen any questions like this generate interest yet? Why not? Is it indifference, hope that it will never happen or sheer unawareness of what's coming?

    For target shooting the only hope is the possible allowance for the continued use of lead as long as at least 90% at the bare minimum of the lead fired is recovered. This isn't set in stone - it's merely a suggestion in the ECHA report and we need to try and get this cemented into place. It's going to cost clubs money to change from berms to full bullet recovery backstops. It'll be easier for slower moving, full lead .22 rounds but what about for centrefire, high speed bullets? How hard will that be to implement? (Of course this ban doesn't apply to indoor ranges so if anyone wins the Euro-Millions and wants to build a roof over every range in the country out of their generosity I'm sure it would be very much appreciated!)

    Also why are the national bodies so silent on all this? If people don't know about the lead ban - it may be because they don't look at internet forums like this or read shooting news websites - that's understandable. But they may be brought up to speed if they belong to an organisation and their particular organisation sends them an email giving some information on the topic. eg: For me, I target shoot in NASRPC competitions. There's not a squeak from the NASRPC on the issue - they have my email and I'd imagine that of most members, they have a website and social media page but there's not a mention on it of the lead ammunition ban. Another target organisation - Target Shooting Ireland have a website and social media page - They're going to be affected but why no mention of the lead ban to their members if only to inform them of what's coming down the line should they not get the information elsewhere? It's not my intent to single out those two shooting bodies for any particular reason or to make them look negative in any way, they are merely two examples I happened to pick out since I usually check in on their websites - this can be said for nearly all the organisations at the moment it would seem (hunting & target).

    *That was an off the top of my head guess, a copper bullet of the same size as a lead .17HMR 17 grain bullet would actually weigh 13.4 grains.




  • Theres a lot of discussion and field experiments been done with the likes of Field Sports Britian. At present they have a cohort of professional stalkers using non lead bullets in various calibres to see what they think.

    As regards to grain weight here is one view on it -

    Instead of using a 150 or a 180-grain copper bullet in .308, they are now gone to a 130-grain bullet. This travels at 3,000 feet per second and is still doing more than 2,600fps at 200 metres. “It gives you all the hydrostatic shock to kill and almost 100% weight retention.”

    In .243, a recommendation of an 80-grain bullet that leaves the barrel at 3,350fps and gives “good expansion expansion out to all sensible hunting ranges.”

    “A light-for-calibre bullet is the way to go for people shooting foxes and varmints.”





  • I know a lad in scotland using copper bullets in his .270 win. He reckons they are brilliant on deer. They are more expensive than lead rounds, but how many boxes of rounds do stalkers/deer shooters use a year ? Its clay/target shooters who use huge amounts of rounds this is going to scupper.


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  • I know a lad in scotland using copper bullets in his .270 win.

    Some prices of soon the be launched lead free hunting ammo from Norma on this website: https://www.all4shooters.com/en/hunting/ammunition/new-hunting-and-sporting-ammunition-from-norma-2021-all-data-and-prices/

    The only .270 Win I could see there was from the "Evostrike" range. E95.00 for a box of 20 cartridges and that's mainland Europe prices.




  • GooseB wrote: »
    Some prices of soon the be launched lead free hunting ammo from Norma on this website: https://www.all4shooters.com/en/hunting/ammunition/new-hunting-and-sporting-ammunition-from-norma-2021-all-data-and-prices/

    The only .270 Win I could see there was from the "Evostrike" range. E95.00 for a box of 20 cartridges and that's mainland Europe prices.

    I'll contact him and see how much he is paying, and what rounds he is using.




  • GooseB wrote: »

    If it comes in then anything used for hunting that is over .22 calibre is going to have to use lead free in 24 months (6 month consultation period + 18 month lead in time).

    If this comes in ANY LEAD PROJECTILE OVER OR UNDER .22 OR ANY LEAD PRODUCT ie. lead pellets , lead weights for fishing will be illegal (but lead for roofing or piping will be allowed)

    This is now the time to get EVERYBODY on board, hunters, shooters, fishermen etc




  • If this comes in ANY LEAD PROJECTILE OVER OR UNDER .22 OR ANY LEAD PRODUCT ie. lead pellets , lead weights for fishing will be illegal (but lead for roofing or piping will be allowed)

    This is now the time to get EVERYBODY on board, hunters, shooters, fishermen etc

    Maybe I wasn't clear - you need to take into account the "24 months" part of the sentence you quoted. Yes, all lead projectiles will eventually be lead free - but not in 24 months. There's an 18 month transition period for larger calibres once this becomes law - assuming what's in the ECHA report passes unchanged. Add in another 6 months for the current consultation period and this is where I got my 24 months.

    There's a 5 year transition period for the smaller .22 calibres and under. Add in the 6 month consultation period and that's where I got the 5.5 years mentioned. I'm not sure if that smaller calibre refers to rimfires only or also includes the .22 calibre centrefires and under - like .223, 22-250, .17 Hornet, etc. So you could still be hunting rabbits with standard lead .22LR ammunition in 4 years time - but your time will be rapidly running out.

    I probably made that about as clear as mud!

    Timescale taken from here: https://echa.europa.eu/-/towards-sustainable-outdoor-shooting-and-fishing-echa-proposes-restrictions-on-lead-use
    ban on the use of lead in bullets and other projectiles (small calibre: five-year; large calibre: 18-month transition periods). Derogations for continued use if releases to the environment are minimised, i.e. when sports shooting ranges are equipped with bullet traps.




  • GooseB wrote: »
    Maybe I wasn't clear - you need to take into account the "24 months" part of the sentence you quoted. Yes, all lead projectiles will eventually be lead free - but not in 24 months. There's an 18 month transition period for larger calibres once this becomes law - assuming what's in the ECHA report passes unchanged. Add in another 6 months for the current consultation period and this is where I got my 24 months.

    There's a 5 year transition period for the smaller .22 calibres and under. Add in the 6 month consultation period and that's where I got the 5.5 years mentioned. I'm not sure if that smaller calibre refers to rimfires only or also includes the .22 calibre centrefires and under - like .223, 22-250, .17 Hornet, etc. So you could still be hunting rabbits with standard lead .22LR ammunition in 4 years time - but your time will be rapidly running out.

    I probably made that about as clear as mud!

    Timescale taken from here: https://echa.europa.eu/-/towards-sustainable-outdoor-shooting-and-fishing-echa-proposes-restrictions-on-lead-use


    From the last Directive, we all know that derogations mean sweet F0ck all to Irish government ie. magazine ban


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  • From the last Directive, we all know that derogations mean sweet F0ck all to Irish government ie. magazine ban

    And that derogation may not even happen yet from the EU - it could still be taken out.:(




  • GooseB wrote: »
    Some prices of soon the be launched lead free hunting ammo from Norma on this website: https://www.all4shooters.com/en/hunting/ammunition/new-hunting-and-sporting-ammunition-from-norma-2021-all-data-and-prices/

    The only .270 Win I could see there was from the "Evostrike" range. E95.00 for a box of 20 cartridges and that's mainland Europe prices.

    Right, he came back to me, They use Federal Trophy copper at £40 a box, so obviously 2 quid a bang. The estate he works on have used copper for 10 years and they like that round, reckons its as good as anything lead based, apart from the price.

    Reloading, the copper bullets are twice the price of lead. They were using copper in .22lr and they were fine to 50 yards or so and tumbled after that, also expensive compared to lead. Roughly twice the price again.


    https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/premium-centerfire-rifle/trophy-copper/




  • badaj0z wrote: »
    The proposed ban on the use of Lead Ammunition will effect all users of Firearms, including those who only shoot targets. At worst, it will stop you using your firearms totally. At best, it will cost you a lot more money in both ammo costs and the cost of your club having to install lead traps, if possible. The FACE organisation has put together a survey to get information to fight the ban. Response from Ireland so far is low so please follow the link and complete the survey.
    Many see this lead ban as a sneaky way to get all private use of firearms banned. You should read the available debates in the media and come to your own conclusion on this.


    https://www.face.eu/2020/12/hunters-survey-on-lead/




    And how to affect it? stop it (unlikely), change it?
    I dont hunt, started filling in the survey and saved it, mostly zero's as I dont have a shotgun or hunt (target),
    Multiple option answers like
    will you stop hunting? they'd probably like that if people say yes
    will you fire less practice shots, stuff along those lines?


    How to influence it? or is that even possible?




  • I don't see it being overturned, like i said earlier, once the unelected commission want something, they get it. Our lot of dopes will gild the lily and probably tack on some other rubbish when they draft the law outlawing lead. The days of heading to the range on a sunday morning and putting a brick of .22 through the rifle or pistol are over it seems. I hope FACE fight it, but i think they will have a tough time getting anywhere.




  • 1874 wrote: »


    How to influence it? or is that even possible?

    Yes. Numbers count in surveys. There was equal weight given to target shooters that I could see. Fill it in with an eye to the end result.




  • They were using copper in .22lr and they were fine to 50 yards or so and tumbled after that

    In relation to rimfire, from the ECHA report, a submission to them from "Gunlex" (not sure who they are?) in relation to CCI copper ammo:
    Rimfire
    Gunlex reported on a test with COPPER-22 ammunition with bullet weighing 1.05 g, made from compressed polymer/copper dust material by US company CCI (the only nonlead .22 ammunition on market – manufacturer already stopped production, but some is still available). The test result demonstrated the inaccuracy of the ammunition for target shooting, the grouping (i.e. the systematic spread of the gun without human intervention) was considerably more spread then with lead bullets.

    Ammunition Group 1 Group 2 Group 3 Group 4 Group 5 Average dispersion
    Copper/ polymer 13 mm 29 mm 39 mm 34 mm 40 mm 31 mm
    Solid lead 6 mm 7 mm 5 mm 7 mm 10 mm 7 mm

    Distance was measured between centres of two most distant hits. According to testing shooter, this disperse is insufficient not only for target shooting, but (considering additional disperse caused by average shooter and firearm) even for recreational shooting or small game hunting.

    Sticking to rimfire, US company "Cutting Edge" have copper bullets turned on a CNC lathe. https://cuttingedgebullets.com/Blog/22lr They're sold with primed brass and require hand loading at home. They're aiming at the super long range craze that exists in the US, they're expensive even over there and over here - forget it (home loading issue ignored even). I think it makes them about the same price as shooting a .223 over there. It defeats the attraction of rimfire in a way. Maybe if it moved away from a niche product and got mass produced by all the big names the price would come down - but you'd still have the basic fact that the raw material cost of copper is more expensive and that's never going away. And then the greenies will ban copper....





  • Maybe I'm missing something but what was or is the justification of removing lead from ammunition.On the scale of things that are polluting the world surely lead out of firearms is a tiny,tiny percentage on that scale.Who was the first person or people to run with this idea and what was their reasoning.
    Is it a food safety thing,as in lead shot game is dangerous.If that's the case why not just make it so lead shot meat stays out of the market.
    I just can't see how shooting with lead is such a bad thing,but then I'm not a politician.




  • Asus1 wrote: »
    Maybe I'm missing something but what was or is the justification of removing lead from ammunition.On the scale of things that are polluting the world surely lead out of firearms is a tiny,tiny percentage on that scale.Who was the first person or people to run with this idea and what was their reasoning.
    Is it a good safety thing,as in lead shot game is dangerous.If that's the case why not just make it so lead shot meat stays out of the market.
    I just can't see how shooting with lead is such a bad thing,but then I'm not a politician.

    The EU have wanted to drastically reduce the amount of guns in europe after the Norway 2011 shootings and the religion of peace terrorist attacks. Rather than say that, they just bring in a ban by the back door. If you want rid of cars, ban petrol and diesel (thats next). You want rid of guns in civilian hands ban lead ammo.




  • I deal with political folk and they a dunking clowns. On the whole it would be safe to say that it's a field that is devoid of technical educated humans and is too heavy with socially idealistic clowns.
    They try to bullshhhhit us with male vs female crap but this is the great divide.. those that have the nac and those who talk..

    The wholesale dispersal of the vote to the unwashed turned political legacy away from the great industrial thinkers of the world and towards the clowns that promote vegan life choices even though they have been give the meat eating teeth😬
    The lead ban needs to be reined in. Yes it could be stipulated that commercial sold game meats can not be harvested with lead based ammo. I think that would be sufficient to promote a significant uptake in lead free technologies.
    How is the 17hmr going to work with 9grain bullets or air rifles. Every gun out there will see performance losses. Why a hobby shooter has to suffer is beyond my reasoning when large proportions of city dwelling are still drinking from lead pipes🤢




  • tudderone wrote: »
    The EU have wanted to drastically reduce the amount of guns in europe after the Norway 2011 shootings and the religion of peace terrorist attacks. Rather than say that, they just bring in a ban by the back door. If you want rid of cars, ban petrol and diesel (thats next). You want rid of guns in civilian hands ban lead ammo.

    Maybe that is the case.Either way I do think in the not so distant future the only way to own a firearm is to have your own land with a heard number,thus firearm is for animal protection.Or be a member of a club with a few traps and a rifle lane.
    I think that getting permission to walk across farmers land having a shot will be suddenly a big no no and before you know it,it's banned.


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  • tudderone wrote: »
    The EU have wanted to drastically reduce the amount of guns in europe after the Norway 2011 shootings and the religion of peace terrorist attacks. Rather than say that, they just bring in a ban by the back door. If you want rid of cars, ban petrol and diesel (thats next). You want rid of guns in civilian hands ban lead ammo.
    Maybe it's time to leave the EU too. Let's face it, the uks departure was an astounding disaster for our economic welbeing.

    The whole issue needs to be promoted




  • tudderone wrote: »
    The EU have wanted to drastically reduce the amount of guns in europe after the Norway 2011 shootings and the religion of peace terrorist attacks. Rather than say that, they just bring in a ban by the back door. If you want rid of cars, ban petrol and diesel (thats next). You want rid of guns in civilian hands ban lead ammo.


    Likely as anything, how they'll implement that across the European mainland? given the levels of shooting sports there???


    I dont have a shotgun, Id be interested, but think I should be holding off on that. I was under the impression they want to reduce the amount of lead used in wetlands? overall its minscule, but it may have an effect,

    that said, I thought steel shot was a thing for clays? or for shooting fowl? with shotguns proofed for that?


    I dont understand why they'd want to ban it for target shooting (although thats where Im involved) I dont have a preference to excuse or explain that away (Im still interested to take up clay shooting purely for fun).
    It would seem relatively easy to capture lead in target boxes, as its mostly all going to the same place?


    There has got to be other solutions rather than outright bans




  • Maybe it's time to leave the EU too

    I was looking at YouTube and came across a video saying that an organisation in the UK that is supposed to be pro hunting - BASC (sorry I don't know the ins and outs of it) actually proposed a voluntary lead ban prior to the EU one. So it doesn't look like being outside the EU is a huge help over in the UK.

    Fast forward to 45 minutes, 30 seconds in
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcLWiKYpHW4




  • 1874 wrote: »
    Likely as anything, how they'll implement that across the European mainland? given the levels of shooting sports there???


    I dont have a shotgun, Id be interested, but think I should be holding off on that. I was under the impression they want to reduce the amount of lead used in wetlands? overall its minscule, but it may have an effect,

    that said, I thought steel shot was a thing for clays? or for shooting fowl? with shotguns proofed for that?


    I dont understand why they'd want to ban it for target shooting (although thats where Im involved) I dont have a preference to excuse or explain that away (Im still interested to take up clay shooting purely for fun).
    It would seem relatively easy to capture lead in target boxes, as its mostly all going to the same place?


    There has got to be other solutions rather than outright bans

    I'd love to know have they taken soil samples from shooting ranges to say how high the lead readings were compared to an area that had no shooting done on it.Now we all know that the shooting range will of course have a higher reading as it's an area that gets covered in lead,but does that matter as no food stuffs is being taken from it.If the site is polluting grounds outside it's boundaries that's another matter.
    I'm just at a loss as to why if it's true that they are removing lead from ammunition to remove firearms from the general population they think it will decrease terrorism.No one is that stupid it is just not a rational explanation.




  • GooseB wrote: »
    I was looking at YouTube and came across a video saying that an organisation in the UK that is supposed to be pro hunting - BASC (sorry I don't know the ins and outs of it) actually proposed a voluntary lead ban prior to the EU one. So it doesn't look like being outside the EU is a huge help over in the UK.

    Fast forward to 45 minutes, 30 seconds in
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcLWiKYpHW4

    It helped them hugely with the covid vaccinations though, the eu has shown itself to be an unwieldy joke. If they are not fighting with the UK they are squabbling like old women amongst themselves. Von der leyen should be working in duffy's circus as a clown, and Merkel has made a right fool of herself.




  • Asus1 wrote: »
    I'd love to know have they taken soil samples from shooting ranges to say how high the lead readings were compared to an area that had no shooting done on it.Now we all know that the shooting range will of course have a higher reading as it's an area that gets covered in lead,but does that matter as no food stuffs is being taken from it.If the site is polluting grounds outside it's boundaries that's another matter.
    I'm just at a loss as to why if it's true that they are removing lead from ammunition to remove firearms from the general population they think it will decrease terrorism.No one is that stupid it is just not a rational explanation.

    Lead exists naturally.. in some places it's more prevalent.. but I have studied water treatment at a municipal level and it's not considered a problem..

    It's a xxxxking rues to ban guns. When did you ever hear of any dying of lead poisoning.. pure clap-trap. I know one plumber he lived till he was 80 and he was the goto guy for any plumbing problem that was lead based..

    As a kid, we used to cast lead weights for fishing. I still here 35years later.

    My health was only effected by eating to much cake and drink too many pints.. if fact, shooting improved my wellbeing- getting me out in the open and out walking fields..
    over the years I found many and sick animal, or a leaking water pipe and an open gate and I actually saved the farmers money by my intervention or alerts..

    These tosses need to have raw paper pipled on their door steps. Don't waste time with electronic complaints.. they hold no weight..
    Write to you local policitical reps and ask them to write on your behalf.. I know that at the county council level, if a Cllr writes in then you ha e to write back..

    Perhaps we need to make a new postcard to relay this complex lie🤥




  • While some talk, or go into denial mode,or conduct surveys...Others act!!

    ***BREAKING NEWS***
    Based on the article 263 of the Treaty of Functioning of the European Union, FUN is challenging this regulation (aka Lead Ban) to the European Tribunal of Justice.
    More details will come soon.

    https://www.facebook.com/FirearmsUnitedNetwork/videos/3628761390583282

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"





  • tudderone wrote: »
    It helped them hugely with the covid vaccinations though, the eu has shown itself to be an unwieldy joke. If they are not fighting with the UK they are squabbling like old women amongst themselves. Von der leyen should be working in duffy's circus as a clown, and Merkel has made a right fool of herself.

    Crass commercialism...BASC is pandering to this as they believe that UK game birds shot with lead will not be accepted on EU markets. So who is BASC representing anymore?The bloke with a shotgun who shoots a few birds for the pot,or Lord Bulgecoffer and pals commercial shoots? They certainly do not repersent the majority of UK shooters anymore. Ironic really as it was a bunch of working class lads meeting in a shed on an estuary concerned about wildfowling in the late 1940s that started this all off.
    Called Wildfowlers Assoc of Great Britan and Ireland [WAGBI] it morphed into BASC and is far removed from the shed in East Yorkshire and its original aim.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"





  • Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Crass commercialism...BASC is pandering to this as they believe that UK game birds shot with lead will not be accepted on EU markets. So who is BASC representing anymore?The bloke with a shotgun who shoots a few birds for the pot,or Lord Bulgecoffer and pals commercial shoots? They certainly do not repersent the majority of UK shooters anymore. Ironic really as it was a bunch of working class lads meeting in a shed on an estuary concerned about wildfowling in the late 1940s that started this all off.
    Called Wildfowlers Assoc of Great Britan and Ireland [WAGBI] it morphed into BASC and is far removed from the shed in East Yorkshire and its original aim.

    It is like many other orgs i have heard about, classic motorcycle associations etc, once brilliant, turned into a money making racket for someone.


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  • Asus1 wrote: »
    I'd love to know have they taken soil samples from shooting ranges to say how high the lead readings were compared to an area that had no shooting done on it.Now we all know that the shooting range will of course have a higher reading as it's an area that gets covered in lead,but does that matter as no food stuffs is being taken from it.If the site is polluting grounds outside it's boundaries that's another matter.
    I'm just at a loss as to why if it's true that they are removing lead from ammunition to remove firearms from the general population they think it will decrease terrorism.No one is that stupid it is just not a rational explanation.

    ESp as we have been eating French and Belgian foodstuffs for decades. Grown on appx 400 million tonnes of lead and other unpleasant stuff on the former battlefields of WW1.So why is that safe and all of a sudden eating your veggies grown 300 meters from your local range is? Simple really...Lead being heavy has a tendency to well...sink.Even in soil. So once it sinks beyond a certain depth, usually as far as a deep plough cut it becomes a moot problem as crop plants dont grow deep enough to be infected.
    Ergo, we EU wide are hardly firing that amount of lead into the environment as was in Passendale,nor is it soft lead either. It is coated lead that is even unaffected by sulphuric acid!, IOW our shot sinks eventually in rivers and lakes and fields past the plant roots and is harmless too.
    Plus you are more likely to get lead poisoning from your veggies grown next to a motorway than grown on the 1foot of topsoil on a range berm,were we to grow such there.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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