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Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.
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Rasputin11 wrote: »
Martin and Jackie must have had some very awkward conversations down through the years!
Throwing a shoulder into an opponent's chest, especially when he is not expecting it, or slapping down on his hurl as he attempts to rise or strike a ball is not tough or playing on the edge. It is sneaky, nasty, dirty, and often cowardly.0 -
What a great article by Martin Fogarty.
I'm convinced the advantage rule over the last few years has been a big part of the problem. Frees weren't being given if there was any chance to let the game keep going. There was an advantage in fouling, you could impede your opponent striking and he still wouldn't get the advantage of a free. Basically minor fouls were being incentivised.
The approach this year is the way to deal with fouling, always, always give a free when that is to the greatest advantage of the player fouled. Particularly with the ball and hurleys as they are now, in practice this will mean giving a free unless there is a goal chance,0 -
Sunny Disposition wrote: »What a great article by Martin Fogarty.
I'm convinced the advantage rule over the last few years has been a big part of the problem. Frees weren't being given if there was any chance to let the game keep going. There was an advantage in fouling, you could impede your opponent striking and he still wouldn't get the advantage of a free. Basically minor fouls were being incentivised.
The approach this year is the way to deal with fouling, always, always give a free when that is to the greatest advantage of the player fouled. Particularly with the ball and hurleys as they are now, in practice this will mean giving a free unless there is a goal chance,
It was basically a cop out for a ref to not give a free for a minor foul.
Used to drive me mad, seeing a foul committed on a lad way out from goal, ref indicate advantage, the lad takes a shot from an awkward angle under pressure and drives it wide. There was no advantage to having to shoot under pressure versus a shot from a standing position under no pressure.0 -
Exactly, it was happening wholesale. An obvious problem for several years.
Then the first day the approach changed we had two guys on League Sunday arguing that things had to go back to the way they had been immediately.
They were virtually unchallenged on what they were saying. Analysis of hurling is really weak. In general you get a bit of this with the Irish media, opinions aren’t challenged enough. For example there are sometimes reports about industrial relations issues and the pay scales of the workers aren’t examined, they just talk have people from the unions talking about how hard their members are working.
I kind of despaired that night though, it was the most positive change seen in years and they just slammed it, without a proper analysis of the advantage the new approach was given to players being fouled.0 -
Sunny Disposition wrote: »Exactly, it was happening wholesale. An obvious problem for several years.
Then the first day the approach changed we had two guys on League Sunday arguing that things had to go back to the way they had been immediately.
They were virtually unchallenged on what they were saying. Analysis of hurling is really weak. In general you get a bit of this with the Irish media, opinions aren’t challenged enough. For example there are sometimes reports about industrial relations issues and the pay scales of the workers aren’t examined, they just talk have people from the unions talking about how hard their members are working.
I kind of despaired that night though, it was the most positive change seen in years and they just slammed it, without a proper analysis of the advantage the new approach was given to players being fouled.
The hurling pundits are very poor, they just tend to agree with each other. The night Tyrell and Jacob went on about the amount of frees being awarded but offered no clips to back up their point was particularly poor analysis.0 -
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Sunny Disposition wrote: »What a great article by Martin Fogarty.
I'm convinced the advantage rule over the last few years has been a big part of the problem. Frees weren't being given if there was any chance to let the game keep going. There was an advantage in fouling, you could impede your opponent striking and he still wouldn't get the advantage of a free. Basically minor fouls were being incentivised.
The approach this year is the way to deal with fouling, always, always give a free when that is to the greatest advantage of the player fouled. Particularly with the ball and hurleys as they are now, in practice this will mean giving a free unless there is a goal chance,
The problem with hurling is that in practice delivering a tackle legitimately is extremely difficult and with the emphasis now on retention of possession opportunities to deliver legitimate tackles are even fewer. Turnovers tend to rely on mistakes and obviously the possession game creates a situation where it is easier to minimise mistakes since a lot of the time the ball is being played to someone who's unmarked.
Traditionally hurling relied on small fouls being overlooked. If steps alone was refereed most goals in matches would not count. The difficulty with the theory that blowing small fouls will stamp them out is maybe it won't in the sense that many are probably unintended contact made in the attempt to win possession. And if it does stamp this out in may mean that you are left really and truly with a non-contact sport because players are afraid to attempt a tackle.0 -
Pogue eile wrote: »Martin and Jackie must have had some very awkward conversations down through the years!
Throwing a shoulder into an opponent's chest, especially when he is not expecting it, or slapping down on his hurl as he attempts to rise or strike a ball is not tough or playing on the edge. It is sneaky, nasty, dirty, and often cowardly.
The sad irony is that the probably had a right laugh at how "tough" Jackie was in targeting an unprotected chest.0 -
The problem with hurling is that in practice delivering a tackle legitimately is extremely difficult and with the emphasis now on retention of possession opportunities to deliver legitimate tackles are even fewer. Turnovers tend to rely on mistakes and obviously the possession game creates a situation where it is easier to minimise mistakes since a lot of the time the ball is being played to someone who's unmarked.
Traditionally hurling relied on small fouls being overlooked. If steps alone was refereed most goals in matches would not count. The difficulty with the theory that blowing small fouls will stamp them out is maybe it won't in the sense that many are probably unintended contact made in the attempt to win possession. And if it does stamp this out in may mean that you are left really and truly with a non-contact sport because players are afraid to attempt a tackle.
The following is how the rule-book defines the tackle in hurling.TACKLE Hurling: Any attempt to dispossess or reduce the advantage of opponent within the Rules of Fair Play. With the exception of the charge
(fair), the tackle is aimed at the ball not the player.
This is what the rule-book says under the playing the game of hurling section.1.8 Player(s) may tackle an opponent for the ball.
1.9 Provided that he has at least one foot on the ground, a player may make a shoulder to shoulder charge on an opponent-
(a) who is in possession of the ball, or
(b) who is playing the ball, or
(c) when both players are moving in the direction of the ball to play it.
When he is within the small rectangle, the goalkeeper may not be charged but he may be challenged for possession of the ball, and his puck, kick or pass may be blocked. Incidental contact with the goalkeeper while playing the ball is permitted.
This is how the tackle is defined in football.Football: The tackle is a skill by which one or more players may dispossess an opponent or frustrate his objective within the Rules of Fair Play. A tackle is aimed at the ball, not the player. A tackler may use his body to confront the opponent but deliberate bodily contact such as punching, slapping,
arm holding, pushing, tripping, jersey pulling or a full frontal charge is forbidden. The only deliberate physical contact allowed is that in the course of
a Fair Charge one player only with at least one foot on the ground , makes a shoulder to shoulder charge on the player in possession
The charge (fair)/Fair Charge is the actual name for what everyone calls a shoulder. (Don't ask me why it's not called a shoulder or even a shoulder charge.)
This is how it's defined.CHARGE Provided he has at least one (Fair) foot on the ground, a player may make a shoulder-to shoulder charge on an opponent (a) who is in
possession of the ball, or (b) In Hurling - who is playing the ball; In Football - who is playing the ball other than when kicking it, or (c) both players are moving in the direction of the ball to play it.
I included the definition of the tackle for football as a contrast because I think it gives a much better indication of what is and is not allowed, especially as regards deliberate physical contact.
There is nothing else in the rule-book about what is a legitimate tackle apart from the list of fouls which only say what is not allowed as opposed to saying what a player who is trying to win possession is allowed to do.
These rules look wholly inadequate as written.0 -
Boom__Boom wrote: »The following is how the rule-book defines the tackle in hurling.
This is what the rule-book says under the playing the game of hurling section.
This is how the tackle is defined in football.
The charge (fair)/Fair Charge is the actual name for what everyone calls a shoulder. (Don't ask me why it's not called a shoulder or even a shoulder charge.)
This is how it's defined.
I included the definition of the tackle for football as a contrast because I think it gives a much better indication of what is and is not allowed, especially as regards deliberate physical contact.
There is nothing else in the rule-book about what is a legitimate tackle apart from the list of fouls which only say what is not allowed as opposed to saying what a player who is trying to win possession is allowed to do.
These rules look wholly inadequate as written.
Jesus that's incredibly confusing. They "define" the tackle by listing a bunch of things you're not allowed do, and that it's basically anything to dispossess that isn't outside the rules?
Doesn't help that they attempt to define rules for two different sports, not just in the same rule book, but in the same sentence!
"or (b) In Hurling - who is playing the ball; In Football - who is playing the ball other than when kicking it"
Are they trying to save paper? Just have a separate rule book for each sport ffs.0 -
Lee Chin i the latest player to say it has nothing to do with wight of the ball etc It of course has nothing to do with the fact that he's been Wexfords main free taker during the league :rolleyes:0
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As an association we have tended to overvalue the viewpoints of people like players and managers. It makes sense, they are at the coal face and obviously their views command our respect, but they are also vested interests looking out for their own patch and not necessarily what's best for the sport. Like when donal o Grady advocated for a six team league but then once he was in charge of limerick and they were not in that top six suddenly it was bad for hurling. Or the uproar about the sin bin when they first tried it, high profile football managers opposed it so strongly after a week or two that it had been scrapped before the hurling league even got to try it out.
Along with the tendency to react primarily to whatever the issue du jour is on the Sunday game, it's hard for a sensible approach to develop under these circumstances.
Basically, asking free takers if scoring from frees too easily is bad for the game? What else would they say?0 -
Lee Chin i the latest player to say it has nothing to do with wight of the ball etc It of course has nothing to do with the fact that he's been Wexfords main free taker during the league :rolleyes:
Do you not accept the fact that the ball is actually one gram heavier in 2021 than it was in 2001. No one was complaining about the weight of the ball back then.
The main change in the game is hows its being played. Hurling had the ludicrous situation where possession really wasn't valued. You won your own ball and generally lumped it forward in what ended up a 50/50 or at best a 60/40 contest. If a defender won this ball he was under severe pressure to then do the same as the forward was on top of him and space around him had already been filled. It was great to watch but a bit nonsensical.
The game is now about possession and control so the ball won by a defender now is only driven forward in extreme circumstances. Its instead would through 15 to 30m passes to hand resulting in a player in the half back or midfield areas in space and an opportunity to shoot. Defenders have to stay back as any pin point pass from this point forward could be devastating. As a result we're seeing much more scoring from distance as space inside is limited but further out its easier to generate.
Its not the ball thats changed, its the game and the way teams were so wasteful with possession will never swing back. It was a ridiculous use of the most prized possession in the game.1 -
Do you not accept the fact that the ball is actually one gram heavier in 2021 than it was in 2001. No one was complaining about the weight of the ball back then.
The main change in the game is hows its being played. Hurling had the ludicrous situation where possession really wasn't valued. You won your own ball and generally lumped it forward in what ended up a 50/50 or at best a 60/40 contest. If a defender won this ball he was under severe pressure to then do the same as the forward was on top of him and space around him had already been filled. It was great to watch but a bit nonsensical.
The game is now about possession and control so the ball won by a defender now is only driven forward in extreme circumstances. Its instead would through 15 to 30m passes to hand resulting in a player in the half back or midfield areas in space and an opportunity to shoot. Defenders have to stay back as any pin point pass from this point forward could be devastating. As a result we're seeing much more scoring from distance as space inside is limited but further out its easier to generate.
Its not the ball thats changed, its the game and the way teams were so wasteful with possession will never swing back. It was a ridiculous use of the most prized possession in the game.
It's all about the hurley. It has significantly changed. Wider bas and shorter shaft means less propulsion of the ball, no ground hurling no overhead pulling and the larger sweet spot, combined with the circular sliotar means greater accuracy from large distances.0 -
It's all about the hurley. It has significantly changed. Wider bas and shorter shaft means less propulsion of the ball, no ground hurling no overhead pulling and the larger sweet spot, combined with the circular sliotar means greater accuracy from large distances.
That's it in a nutshell. There is regulation sizes for both in the rulebook which are not enforced. Players, pundits, coaches, alike don't want to know about this and have come out on the defensive saying everything is honky dorey.0 -
It's all about the hurley. It has significantly changed. Wider bas and shorter shaft means less propulsion of the ball, no ground hurling no overhead pulling and the larger sweet spot, combined with the circular sliotar means greater accuracy from large distances.
A shorter shaft and less propulsion would mean shorter striking distances not longer. The bas should be kept to regulation 13cm or under but that's not why we've seen the change we've seen in the last 4 to 5yrs. The bas was always oversized and ground hurling went out with the ark. Teams haven't been ground hurling since Johnny logan was winning eurovisions. Completely moot point. Only difference on the ball in 20yrs is the ridges so that's not the reason either.1 -
Do you not accept the fact that the ball is actually one gram heavier in 2021 than it was in 2001. No one was complaining about the weight of the ball back then.
The main change in the game is hows its being played. Hurling had the ludicrous situation where possession really wasn't valued. You won your own ball and generally lumped it forward in what ended up a 50/50 or at best a 60/40 contest. If a defender won this ball he was under severe pressure to then do the same as the forward was on top of him and space around him had already been filled. It was great to watch but a bit nonsensical.
The game is now about possession and control so the ball won by a defender now is only driven forward in extreme circumstances. Its instead would through 15 to 30m passes to hand resulting in a player in the half back or midfield areas in space and an opportunity to shoot. Defenders have to stay back as any pin point pass from this point forward could be devastating. As a result we're seeing much more scoring from distance as space inside is limited but further out its easier to generate.
Its not the ball thats changed, its the game and the way teams were so wasteful with possession will never swing back. It was a ridiculous use of the most prized possession in the game.
Remember seeing a clip of the 1979 all Ireland final and Nicky Brennan cleared his lines with a sweet first time pull which drew a huge roar from the kilkenny crowd and Michael o hehir sang his praises in approval. The ball went straight to a Galway player who slotted the ball over the bar but that first time pull.
Definitely ain’t going back to that.1 -
There is nothing wrong with hurling.. As with most sports it evolves and the so called purist complain. Mainly because it not the game they remember. I played underage in the 80"s and 90's. Intermediate and Senior after and have coached alot of underage from u6 to u16 after.. I have listened to the lads on the sidel line who love a full back to break out and launch one and see it come back with vengeance . We expect player to to have greater fitness, intelligence and skill now then ever before so why expect them to play such a low percentage game that way played back then. Also remember no team had won an All Ireland final in hurling playing a sweeper..0
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There is nothing wrong with hurling.. As with most sports it evolves and the so called purist complain. Mainly because it not the game they remember. I played underage in the 80"s and 90's. Intermediate and Senior after and have coached alot of underage from u6 to u16 after.. I have listened to the lads on the sidel line who love a full back to break out and launch one and see it come back with vengeance . We expect player to to have greater fitness, intelligence and skill now then ever before so why expect them to play such a low percentage game that way played back then. Also remember no team had won an All Ireland final in hurling playing a sweeper..
I don't think people really want to go back to completely mindless hitting and hoping stuff, but that's not what we had, say, ten years ago anyway. Regardless, I think the thing people want is a spectacle that isn't boring. Short passes up the field between unmarked players followed by a strike over the bar from an unmarked player is boring no matter how smart it is or how fit you need to be to pull it off. I'm not a purist by any means, the game has evolved and mostly for the better, the fitness and skill of the game is great, and I think ultimately teams will evolve as always. But that doesn't mean people are simply wrong if they're bored of the current way it's played.0 -
Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »I don't think people really want to go back to completely mindless hitting and hoping stuff, but that's not what we had, say, ten years ago anyway. Regardless, I think the thing people want is a spectacle that isn't boring. Short passes up the field between unmarked players followed by a strike over the bar from an unmarked player is boring no matter how smart it is or how fit you need to be to pull it off. I'm not a purist by any means, the game has evolved and mostly for the better, the fitness and skill of the game is great, and I think ultimately teams will evolve as always. But that doesn't mean people are simply wrong if they're bored of the current way it's played.
Tactics will evolve to counter the way the game is played currently. Personally I love seeing the ball moved skillfully player to player with millimetre precision. The ball is struck now as if a lad were shooting for goal and the receiving player is catching it, often a pace and doing the same. Its miles ahead in terms of skill from where we were.
In 2012, around the period you mentioned, galway threw away an all ireland by lumping ball after ball on top of a dominant KK half back line. It was obvious what they were doing wrong yet it persisted through the entire 40mins of the 2nd half. Handing KK a platform and an all ireland in the process.That would never happen today.1 -
Tactics will evolve to counter the way the game is played currently. Personally I love seeing the ball moved skillfully player to player with millimetre precision. The ball is struck now as if a lad were shooting for goal and the receiving player is catching it, often a pace and doing the same. Its miles ahead in terms of skill from where we were.
In 2012, around the period you mentioned, galway threw away an all ireland by lumping ball after ball on top of a dominant KK half back line. It was obvious what they were doing wrong yet it persisted through the entire 40mins of the 2nd half. Handing KK a platform and an all ireland in the process.That would never happen today.
The new is implicitly better crew sure like throwing out opinions about skill levels, physicality, conditioning etc. as fact.
Here you are stating that players pinging a ball around today, a skill which was not a major part of the game a decade ago and hence not even focused on by players when training or playing back then, in now becoming a major part of the modern game, most likely at the expense of other skills that were more prominent a decade ago implies that skill levels are at all time high.0 -
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Do you not accept the fact that the ball is actually one gram heavier in 2021 than it was in 2001. No one was complaining about the weight of the ball back then.
The main change in the game is hows its being played. Hurling had the ludicrous situation where possession really wasn't valued. You won your own ball and generally lumped it forward in what ended up a 50/50 or at best a 60/40 contest. If a defender won this ball he was under severe pressure to then do the same as the forward was on top of him and space around him had already been filled. It was great to watch but a bit nonsensical.
The game is now about possession and control so the ball won by a defender now is only driven forward in extreme circumstances. Its instead would through 15 to 30m passes to hand resulting in a player in the half back or midfield areas in space and an opportunity to shoot. Defenders have to stay back as any pin point pass from this point forward could be devastating. As a result we're seeing much more scoring from distance as space inside is limited but further out its easier to generate.
Its not the ball thats changed, its the game and the way teams were so wasteful with possession will never swing back. It was a ridiculous use of the most prized possession in the game.
Again, have you proof that the ball has not changed? There is more to how far a ball travels than just the weight, e.g. rims, composition. Of course the ball is being used differently these days in order to preserve possession, but this does not mean that a change in the ball isn't a factor in the ease at which long range scores are taken these days.
Of course the efficiency with which the modern player keeps possession is admirable, doesn't make it not boring though. It's less entertaining to me than spectacular fielding, like spectacular fielding was less entertaining to a previous generation than ground hurling, like ground hurling was less entertaining to a previous generation that loved over head pulling and so on.
The game evolves and people are perfectly able and entitled to acknowledge it and grumble about it at the same time0 -
Some stats on where the game is now.
Big one that jumped out was "six of the 10 teams in the Liam MacCarthy had over 40% of their total shots from outside the 65-metre line"
I'd love to see a comparison for the amount of shots from outside the 65-metre line with 10/15/20 years ago.The geography of the pitch has changed as hurlers play the percentages
So many teams now have so many good outside shooters that they don’t need to work goals, especially when three quick points has the same mathematical value
MON, 21 JUN, 2021 - 07:00
CHRISTY O’CONNOR
A couple of years back, the hurling coach and statistician Seán Flynn did a brilliant study on retention rates in hurling through analysing deliveries from different zones of the pitch.
From a series of games during the 2017, 2018, and 2019 championships, Flynn analysed 5,297 passes to highlight the breakdown in retention rates of those passes.
Studying the data from four different zones, the results were revealing.
When the ball was struck behind the 45-metre line, the retention rate was 33%; between 45-55 metres, it was 42%; when the ball was delivered between 55-65 metres, the retention rate was 58%; when the pass was played between both 65 metre lines, forwards were winning 73% of that possession.
Flynn’s more nuanced detail around the data also illustrated how the game was changing throughout those three seasons. In 2017, the number of deliveries from inside a team’s own 45 to inside the opposition 65 metre line was 13.8 per game; by 2019, that figure had dropped to 7.41. Moreover, the retention rate had also significantly dropped throughout those seasons, going from 36% in 2017, to 34% in 2018, all the way down to 31% in 2019.
The geography of the pitch is becoming increasingly altered with extra bodies and layered defences. Having the high percentage scoring zones so heavily populated with extra bodies has encouraged more shooting from distance but it has also forced players to put a far greater premium on processing possession closer to goal. “Teams were holding their half-back line,” says Flynn, who worked as a statistician with the Tipp senior hurlers in 2019 and 2020. “Half-forwards were dropping deep but the ball was still going long. Now, teams are looking to hit those passes into half-forwards in the middle third. As a result, opposition half-back lines have serious questions to answer in terms of their overall structure.”
The systematic processing of possession now lies at the heart of hurling’s modern conflict. The public crave more contests for the ball, but the players just want to eliminate as many of the variables as possible by moving the ball into shooting positions.
In a recent excellent paper by Paul O’Brien and assisted by Denise Martin and Johnny Bradley published in the International Journal of Performance Analysis in Sport, O’Brien aimed to create a profile of elite performance to identify which indicators discriminate between winners and losers in senior inter-county hurling championship.
Significant differences were identified in shooting indicators, with winning teams having higher total shot count (40), shot count from open play (29.5) and shot efficiency from both open play (61%) and dead balls (77%). “This information really helps our understanding of the game and how hurling is constantly evolving,” says Denise Martin, of the Technological University of Dublin, who has championed and led statistical data analysis in the GAA over the last decade. The reason why this is so important is that we can stand over it. The data is robust. It’s checked. There is a reliability study with it.”
Despite so much indifference now to how the game has changed, nobody can deny how hurling has evolved, and is continuing to evolve. A few years back, Colm Clear, Martin, and Professor Mike Hughes brilliantly explored the composition of possessions and shooting in the entire 2015 hurling championship, highlighting the importance of increasing shot count, shot efficiency, and successful free takers.
However, the change of the hurling championship to a provincial round-robin system in 2018 and 2019 may have had an impact on comparisons between Clear’s findings and O’Brien’s latest data.
While there is no difference in shots from play, and only a minimal difference in total shots, the analysis shows that shooting efficiency has improved considerably since 2015. The total shooting efficiency of losing teams (59%) has stayed consistent with the previous figure (58%). However, the figures for winning teams has increased from 62% up to 65%. The improvement in shooting efficiency for winners is also evident with shots from open play, increasing from 58% to 61%.
Successful teams are placing more emphasis on better shot selection, both in terms of location and execution.
“Getting more shots off from play, and getting them off in better zones is becoming more and more important,” says Paul O’Brien, who undertook the study research as part of his Masters in Sports Performance Analysis in IT Carlow. “It’s no surprise that the most accurate teams over the last three years were Limerick twice, and Tipperary. But they were also the teams which got off the most shots in the best scoring zones.
“A lot of people are giving out now about the huge volumes of scores, but the coaching has got better because it had to. With so many extra bodies now in the middle third, why wouldn’t coaches design games to improve shooting?”
O’Brien’s findings also show the various areas where scores originate from and the importance of being able to transition from defence to attack and attack to defence. Teams want to work the ball to better shooting positions, but the natural corollary is that areas close to goal have never been more congested with bodies.
One of the trade-offs is that the scoring zone has never been so big. Changes in the sliotar and increased levels of strength and conditioning has also further expanded the scoring zone.
The increased redrawing and expansion of the tactical grid has led to a decreasing number of goals and more long-distance shooting. So many teams now have so many good outside shooters that they don’t need to work goals, especially when three quick points has the same mathematical value.
Shooting from distance, especially accurately, is now a skill in itself. It’s also more logical with so many teams now playing with deep-lying forwards or retreating midfielders. With half-forwards and midfielders dropping back under puckouts, and covering back in other scenarios, half-backs have become increasingly available in space to attack and shoot.
Waterford are one of the best teams to shoot from distance. In their recent league game against Galway, Calum Lyons scored 0-5 from play from wing-back. In last year’s championship, Waterford defenders scored 1-13 from play.
Brilliant data from the excellent ‘GAA Insights’ team revealed how Waterford took an average of 9.8 shots per game in the 2020 championship from outside the 65 metre line, which accounted for 41% of their average total number of shots per game. As a comparison, Limerick’s percentage of shots scored from outside the 65 metre line amounted to 26% of their total score.
Wexford were the highest shooters from distance in the 2020 championship, when averaging 11 shots from play from outside the 65, which amounted to 63% of Wexford’s total shots from play.
Wexford’s style, especially with Kevin Foley’s role as the sweeper, encourages more shooting from distance. Yet the high volume of long-range shooting last year (six of the 10 teams in the Liam MacCarthy had over 40% of their total shots from outside the 65-metre line) captured another step in the game’s evolution.
“With many teams employing more complex defensive system with congested defences,” writes O’Brien in the study, “attacking teams need to be aware of the trade-off between shooting from the midfield zone with potentially lower shot efficiency than risking additional turnovers by advancing to the attacking third where scoring efficiencies increase.”
The evolution continues. And so does the revolution.
The difference between winning and losing
Titled ‘Differences in performance indicators between winners and losers in senior inter-county hurling championship’, the recent fascinating study by Paul O’Brien, Denise Martin, and Johnny Bradley aimed to create a profile of elite performance to identify which performance indicators discriminate between winners and losers.
A total of 77 senior Inter-county games (2018–2020) were analysed, with all puckouts (5,128), turnovers (6,400), and shots (5,695) coded.
Significant differences were identified in shooting indicators, with winning teams having higher total shot count (40), shot count from open play (29.5), and shot efficiency from both open play (61%) and dead balls (77%).
There were also significant differences in possession metrics; winners had a lower turnover rate (53%) and higher puckouts retention (65%), exhibiting higher overall productivity (3.8%).
The study showed that that losing teams score more from their own puckouts (34%) than winning teams (29%), which may suggest that inefficient teams prioritise winning possession from their own puckouts rather than the opposition’s.
Winning teams directly score from 18% of opposition puckouts compared to 12% for losers, highlighting that a strategy to attack opponent’s puckouts can prove beneficial.
The retention rates for mid-range puckouts is 56%, while long puckouts’ retention rate is only 45%. Yet, the net points scored from long puckouts are higher at 0.59 compared to 0.41 on mid-range puckouts and 0.24 on short puckouts.
The effectiveness of short puckouts as a method to score is questionable based on the findings of the research paper. Despite winning 94% of short puckouts, the net points from a successful short puckout is 0.24.
However, short puckouts are becoming more common and increased during the 2020 championship, leading to 7–56.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40318484.html0 -
Patrick Horgan, a man who always seems to have something to complain about, says the yellow sliotars are to blame :rolleyes:
When you see thing like this it's no wonder things are so slow to chance in hurling.0 -
Boom__Boom wrote: »Some stats on where the game is now.
Big one that jumped out was "six of the 10 teams in the Liam MacCarthy had over 40% of their total shots from outside the 65-metre line"
I'd love to see a comparison for the amount of shots from outside the 65-metre line with 10/15/20 years ago.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40318484.html
The use of ‘white boards’ by back room teams has to be factor also..?0 -
Article on frees awarded in the league.
While a step in the right direction, after all the work done to generate the data relating to this, I would have thought the raw data could have been provided as opposed to just cherry-picking some of it for the article.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/hurling/2021/0624/1231152-hurlign-fouls-analysis-piece/0 -
Boom__Boom wrote: »Article on frees awarded in the league.
While a step in the right direction, after all the work done to generate the data relating to this, I would have thought the raw data could have been provided as opposed to just cherry-picking some of it for the article.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/hurling/2021/0624/1231152-hurlign-fouls-analysis-piece/
That's Sean Flynn - same guy's data that Christy O'Connor was using as data for that article above.
Flynn was a video analyst with Tipp under Sheedy.0 -
Boom__Boom wrote: »Article on frees awarded in the league.
While a step in the right direction, after all the work done to generate the data relating to this, I would have thought the raw data could have been provided as opposed to just cherry-picking some of it for the article.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/hurling/2021/0624/1231152-hurlign-fouls-analysis-piece/
Great data there. The free hand can be linked to high tackles and hand on the back fouls as well as free hand fouls themselves. That's a staggering percentage of fouls related of the free hand but not surprising. Hopefully we see a happy medium in the championship ie: players keeping their hands to themselves and refs being a little more lenient. Refs deciding to completely ignore these fouls for the free flow game would not be a step forward and would make a nonsense of all their work in the league.0 -
Think the under 20 All-Ireland should go to an open draw format maybe groups of 3
Leinster teams having an advantage of playing more games than the Munster teams which only contains 5 teams
Leinster Championship contains 12 teams with Galway, Antrim and Down from outside the province0 -
Think the under 20 All-Ireland should go to an open draw format maybe groups of 3
Leinster teams having an advantage of playing more games than the Munster teams which only contains 5 teams
Leinster Championship contains 12 teams with Galway, Antrim and Down from outside the province
I'm in favour of an open draw because I think the provincial system is outdated leads to all kinds of confusing fixes to the structure of the championship, but not sure playing more games is necessarily an advantage, especially at a grade level where the main complaint seems to be burnout.
But whatever gets us to an open draw faster is good IMO. Do it at senior as well.0 -
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Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »I'm in favour of an open draw because I think the provincial system is outdated leads to all kinds of confusing fixes to the structure of the championship, but not sure playing more games is necessarily an advantage, especially at a grade level where the main complaint seems to be burnout.
But whatever gets us to an open draw faster is good IMO. Do it at senior as well.
Sure aren't under 20 players not allowed on the senior panels nowadays if selected for the Under 20 panel ?
maybe trying an open draw at underage level would be a good start0
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