Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

Sunny Disposition · 08-06-2021 2:13pm

Applying the rule on hurley size would obviously go a long way, but unfortunately the GAA probably won’t have the appetite for it.
Maybe they might do it from the start of next year. It would fundamentally change the game from what we’ve seen over the last few years, there’s be more play around the middle of the field and balls dropping into the goalmouths. The ball would be in play more, wouldn’t be going dead as often.
Strange as it sounds, implementing a rule that has existed for years would change the game dramatically. There’s be some who wouldn’t like it, especially as teams have to adapt, but it’d definitely be a good long term move.

Clareman · 08-06-2021 3:21pm

Enforcing the 13cm limit would be a massive change, I doubt any player has a hurley in line with those dimensions now, with major shortages in ash I'd imagine the GAA wouldn't be looking to enforce that for a long time to come. The handpass would be the quickest thing to implement. Another option would be to limit the amount of players in certain parts of the pitch, for example no more than 4 players from each side between the 65s, that would need an extra official though

Rosita · 08-06-2021 4:01pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

But currently if what you are saying is such a good easy option why are we not seeing players pinned to the endline not just popping it over the side for a cut. You are completely overplaying how many players will put it over the end if a change is made the real number will be close to 0 and most players will still try play it out or hoof it

How in name of God is this still an issue? Read my posts.

I never said anything about how many times players playing the ball over the end line, never mind "overplaying" the amount they do it. That's your imagination.

I simply said that the rationale for the 65 is because it is so easy for any defender to play the ball over the end line, therefore somebody in their wisdom years ago decided to award a free puck to the attacking team to disincentive this.

Somebody said they couldn't see the logic of there being a 65 in the game and I simply pointed out that it is completely logical. If you read my posts you'd have seen that.

Rosita · 08-06-2021 4:04pm

flasher0030 wrote: »

Would there be that many 65's in a game that would make it worth while changing the '65 format? I wouldn't have thought changing it would make any big difference to anything really.
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You are right. Galway-Waterford at the weekend had 57 scores and only one from a 65. Cork-Limerick had 54 scores and only three from a 65. It appears to be infrequent enough.

Whether that's an decisive argument for not altering it is another matter of course.

breezy1985 · 08-06-2021 4:09pm

Rosita wrote: »

How in name of God is this still an issue? Read my posts.

I never said anything about how many times players playing the ball over the end line, never mind "overplaying" the amount they do it. That's your imagination.

I simply said that the rationale for the 65 is because it is so easy for any defender to play the ball over the end line, therefore somebody in their wisdom years ago decided to award a free puck to the attacking team to disincentive this.

Somebody said they couldn't see the logic of there being a 65 in the game and I simply pointed out that it is completely logical. If you read my posts you'd have seen that.

"I simply said that the rationale for the 65 is because it is so easy for any defender to play the ball over the end line,"

Its still an issue because this statement is wrong completely wrong. If it were true then sideline cuts would be happening all the time as a defensive measure

bucketybuck · 08-06-2021 4:18pm

I don't watch much hurling for a lot of the reasons mentioned here, the basketball scores, the apparent ease of taking scores from distance, the fawning and backslapping etc etc.

But I watched a few minutes of the Limerick game at the weekend and must admit that the hand passing caught me by surprise. Not just the amount of it, but most of the time it looked like a throw rather than a pass, is that actually allowed in the rules or is it just not being enforced?

Sunny Disposition · 08-06-2021 4:19pm

Clareman wrote: »

Enforcing the 13cm limit would be a massive change, I doubt any player has a hurley in line with those dimensions now, with major shortages in ash I'd imagine the GAA wouldn't be looking to enforce that for a long time to come. The handpass would be the quickest thing to implement. Another option would be to limit the amount of players in certain parts of the pitch, for example no more than 4 players from each side between the 65s, that would need an extra official though

It couldn't be done overnight of course, but if they gave an amnesty until the beginning of 2023 or even 2024 it'd be plenty of time. Of course it's unlikely they'll have the gumption, realistically it's unlikely anything will be done unless the Sunday Game panellists start complaining about the flouting of the rule.

It really is a big thing in the GAA at most levels, don't comply with rules if they don't suit, find a way around them, ignore them. The ignorant breaching of Covid regulations is a good example of this kind of thinking.

Rosita · 08-06-2021 4:22pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

"I simply said that the rationale for the 65 is because it is so easy for any defender to play the ball over the end line,"

Its still an issue because this statement is wrong completely wrong. If it were true then sideline cuts would be happening all the time as a defensive measure

That's fine. I'll certainly leave it at that anyway. If you think it is very difficult for a defender to hit the ball over their own endline I can't change your mind. Why the 65 was invented at all must baffle you.

17togo · 08-06-2021 4:28pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

This is a great post, if only two of the proposals were introduced; the size of the bas and the weight of the ball; hurling would be in a much better position.

I went into early retirement from hurling in my home county around 01/02, moved to the big schmoke and made a much anticipated comeback to junior hurling in Dublin around 10 years later. I still had the hurley that I had in 01/02, I remember rocking up with it to my first training with the new club. It genuinely looked like a hockey stick compared to everyone else. It was crazy the dramatic change that had happened.
Roll on the first match I played, the fella I was marking in his thick Dublin accent "what's the story with your hurl".... :-D :-D

So it's probably the smallest change in the rules that could make the biggest difference I think!

Rosita · 08-06-2021 4:28pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

I don't watch much hurling for a lot of the reasons mentioned here, the basketball scores, the apparent ease of taking scores from distance, the fawning and backslapping etc etc.

But I watched a few minutes of the Limerick game at the weekend and must admit that the hand passing caught me by surprise. Not just the amount of it, but most of the time it looked like a throw rather than a pass, is that actually allowed in the rules or is it just not being enforced?

Not being enforced. Also never mentioned in the analysis. To be fair to referees its probably difficult to pick up unless it's right in front of you, and there's also the knowledge that nearly every pass is illegal anyway so if you pick up on one you'll get all the whataboutery.

breezy1985 · 08-06-2021 4:42pm

Rosita wrote: »

That's fine. I'll certainly leave it at that anyway. If you think it is very difficult for a defender to hit the ball over their own endline I can't change your mind. Why the 65 was invented at all must baffle you.

Of course it is not physically hard for him to do it everyone knows that. But it would be a stupid thing to do and no one would so therefore you don't need a serious deterrent against it

ArmaniJeanss · 08-06-2021 4:44pm

What would happen I wonder if the winning point in a high-profile tv game was scored with a 15cm hurl, and the losing manager then asked the referee to inspect the equipment? In many sports using illegal equipment would be grounds for a disqualification or at least a replay.

bucketybuck · 08-06-2021 5:53pm

Rosita wrote: »

To be fair to referees its probably difficult to pick up unless it's right in front of you, and there's also the knowledge that nearly every pass is illegal anyway so if you pick up on one you'll get all the whataboutery.

I find that a little hard to believe, that they can't see it unless its right in front of them, in the ten or so minutes I was watching it seemed like balls were being thrown repeatedly, in every passage of play.

If everybody is doing it then I can see how a ref might just start letting it go, but its surprising that it has been let get to this point.

Clareman · 08-06-2021 5:54pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

What would happen I wonder if the winning point in a high-profile tv game was scored with a 15cm hurl, and the losing manager then asked the referee to inspect the equipment? In many sports using illegal equipment would be grounds for a disqualification or at least a replay.

Every hurley is over 13cm so all players wouldnt be able to play at all

Rosita · 08-06-2021 6:32pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

I find that a little hard to believe, that they can't see it unless its right in front of them, in the ten or so minutes I was watching it seemed like balls were being thrown repeatedly, in every passage of play.

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I wouldn't find it hard to imagine that if a ball is pucked 50 metres from where a referee is and a player whose back is turned towards the ref and is maybe obscured by a few other players could be difficult to see if they throw the ball.

If you actually find that hard to believe then you must assume that referees are simply not calling what they are seeing.

Rosita · 08-06-2021 6:33pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

What would happen I wonder if the winning point in a high-profile tv game was scored with a 15cm hurl, and the losing manager then asked the referee to inspect the equipment? In many sports using illegal equipment would be grounds for a disqualification or at least a replay.

Problem there is that his own team would probably be illegal too.

Dyr · 08-06-2021 8:00pm

Clareman wrote: »

Another option would be to limit the amount of players in certain parts of the pitch, for example no more than 4 players from each side between the 65s, that would need an extra official though

Jesus no.

Leave that zonal, situational nonsense to stuff like rugby, just create rules that force players utilise skill.

Treble double · 09-06-2021 11:09am

Skehill says that the rims need to be increased as the ball is practically smooth, he says there are lads playing with bas's the size of frying pans, he didn't make a call for the regulation size in the rulebook to be enforced.
Eddie Brennan interviewed then more or less agreed with Skehill, but again no call for regulation size to be enforced. Eddie reckons things will even themselves out, how he figures that I don't know. Eddie also thinks referees shouldn't enforce the rules to the letter to help the flow of the game.
So you have a situation where a national game played at the highest level is played with equipment that doesn't comply with the regulated size set out in the rules of the game and also to have a good spectacle you are depending on the ref to not enforce the rules of the game fully.
Hurling is not in a good place and the reluctance of so called pundits to call for rules on equipment size to be enforced is crazy.

crossman47 · 09-06-2021 11:26am

Rosita wrote: »

If you actually find that hard to believe then you must assume that referees are simply not calling what they are seeing.

They're not calling a throw unless they're sure. That's the problem. The rule calls for a clear striking action and that should be enforced. Anything else should be a free.

Sunny Disposition · 09-06-2021 1:03pm

Treble double wrote: »

Skehill says that the rims need to be increased as the ball is practically smooth, he says there are lads playing with bas's the size of frying pans, he didn't make a call for the regulation size in the rulebook to be enforced.
Eddie Brennan interviewed then more or less agreed with Skehill, but again no call for regulation size to be enforced. Eddie reckons things will even themselves out, how he figures that I don't know. Eddie also thinks referees shouldn't enforce the rules to the letter to help the flow of the game.
So you have a situation where a national game played at the highest level is played with equipment that doesn't comply with the regulated size set out in the rules of the game and also to have a good spectacle you are depending on the ref to not enforce the rules of the game fully.
Hurling is not in a good place and the reluctance of so called pundits to call for rules on equipment size to be enforced is crazy.

Letting the game flow by not enforcing the rules has been a blight on the game for years, and is very typical of the lazy thinking in GAA punditry that it goes unremarked upon, despite endless talk about 'systems'.

When there are fouls they have to be punished. If they are ignored the honest player is the one punished, those committing the fouls benefit at their expense.

The tinkiring with the advantage rule over the last few years hasn't worked, but there are signs of progress this year. Very rarely is there an advantage to being allowed play on, especially now with the lighter ball. Almost the only time there will be an advantage is when there's a goal scoring chance, and even then play needs to be brought back if a score doesn't result.

It's been a huge issue for the last few years, when marginal benefits resulted to a team playing on due to an advantage being given, refs never brought back the play even though there's a greater advantage to having a free. It's crazy, but it somehow became common because of 'letting the game flow'.

I hope some pundit does call for the rule on the bas to be enforced, it's an opportunity for someone to make a name for themselves. Sure, it'll change the game and upset some big names, but it's definitely in the interests of hurling.

bucketybuck · 09-06-2021 1:16pm

Rosita wrote: »

If you actually find that hard to believe then you must assume that referees are simply not calling what they are seeing.

Why wouldn't I assume that, it already seems very clear that they are not enforcing all of the rules. Whats one more.

09-06-2021 2:00pm

Rosita wrote: »

Problem there is that his own team would probably be illegal too.

But could a team or County Board object to a result, in principle I mean? Say a county which had no chance against a superior opponent. Came equipped with legitimate 13cm bas hurls, proceeded to knock about prematch, and brought to officials/opponents attention. Stir the pot at least, I'm sure no chance of happening. But it is a simply staggering anomaly - I have to say I wasn't aware of the level of the disregard of very clear regulations.

Pogue eile · 09-06-2021 2:08pm

When was the rule re 13cm actually passed does anyone know?

What ever about enforcing it, there is no way that they will enforce it at 13cm, I don't think people realise how small that is in the modern game.

If they ever decide to tackle it, the first thing they will do is to amend the rule.

leath_dub · 09-06-2021 4:35pm

Pogue eile wrote: »

When was the rule re 13cm actually passed does anyone know?

What ever about enforcing it, there is no way that they will enforce it at 13cm, I don't think people realise how small that is in the modern game.

If they ever decide to tackle it, the first thing they will do is to amend the rule.

I think the Cork team of the early 2000s were the first team to use the enlarged bas hurleys. That team had Ben and Jerry O'Connor playing and I believe it was the O'Connor hurleys (O'Connor brand of hurley, that is) that were first to feature an enlarged bas (it had a heavy wedge arrangement at the back). Prior to that I believe most outfield hurleys would have passed the 13 cm test.

Rasputin11 · 09-06-2021 6:30pm

The keeper should be made use the ball that's in use, unless it's not retrievable. The ultra quick puck out only encourages more loose hurling.

Davys Fits · 09-06-2021 6:39pm

leath_dub wrote: »

I think the Cork team of the early 2000s were the first team to use the enlarged bas hurleys. That team had Ben and Jerry O'Connor playing and I believe it was the O'Connor hurleys (O'Connor brand of hurley, that is) that were first to feature an enlarged bas (it had a heavy wedge arrangement at the back). Prior to that I believe most outfield hurleys would have passed the 13 cm test.

I think you will have to go back much further maybe to the 80's to find a bas of 13cm in an adults hurley. It sure is small. A Childs Hurley hardly makes the grade. As someone else said the 13cm would need to be changed first as theres no way modern day hurlers will go back to it.

Treble double · 09-06-2021 7:00pm

Davys Fits wrote: »

I think you will have to go back much further maybe to the 80's to find a bas of 13cm in an adults hurley. It sure is small. A Childs Hurley hardly makes the grade. As someone else said the 13cm would need to be changed first as theres no way modern day hurlers will go back to it.

Well if a modern hurler put a regulation sized sliothar by the rules of the game over the bar with a hurl with a regulation size bas by the rules of the game, from 65 metres out... Marty Morrissey would be well within in his rights to declare "Holy Moses"
It's hard to be impressed by any scores from distance now as they are ten a penny.

leath_dub · 09-06-2021 7:59pm

Davys Fits wrote: »

I think you will have to go back much further maybe to the 80's to find a bas of 13cm in an adults hurley. It sure is small. A Childs Hurley hardly makes the grade. As someone else said the 13cm would need to be changed first as theres no way modern day hurlers will go back to it.

This discussion seems to be gaining currency.. James Skehill,Eddie Brennan and Henry Sheflin discussing it on podcasts today. Sean Moran discussing the rules re. hurling equipment also:

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/se%C3%A1n-moran-enforcing-equipment-rules-a-good-starting-point-in-hurling-blitzkrieg-1.4587851?mode=amp

purplepanda · 09-06-2021 9:36pm

RTE article on Hurl sizes from a few years back. https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0815/1069043-hurling-bas/

A friend of mine from Kilkenny stock has his Dad's ould Hurl from back in the day, the son was born 1943 so I assume the stick is from the '30's to 40's period. He used to laugh about the difference in size compared to the late '90's hurls that I still have from my playing days!

My late '90's hurls are 140 / 150cm wide at the Bas, the goalies one is 185cm.

His Dad's old Hurl is exactly the same type as the KK 1930's team in this Pathe clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN1EhHrncNc

Those ould Hurls actually look more like Shinty sticks to me!

leath_dub · 09-06-2021 10:27pm

Davys Fits wrote: »

I think you will have to go back much further maybe to the 80's to find a bas of 13cm in an adults hurley. It sure is small. A Childs Hurley hardly makes the grade. As someone else said the 13cm would need to be changed first as theres no way modern day hurlers will go back to it.

Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

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