Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

robbiezero · 08-06-2021 9:36am

Avon8 wrote: »

Get rid of 65's anyway. The base idea of a 65 is completely ludicrous. When the ball goes out of play, the idea should for it to be got back into play as quickly as possible. That's the case in every sport bar Rugby.

It was ok to put up with this idiocy when they were hard score. Now every decent u14 free taker scores them. A keeper saving a shot or a defender blocking a score does not then deserve an automatic score. Make them indirect at the very least

Agree with this. So many of the 65 situations now are not worthy of deserving an almost certain point, was it Clares last score on Saturday where Fitzgerald I think was bottled up in the corner and just tapped it off a defender for a pointed 65.
Ridiculous outcome for what was good defending.
Should be just possession given back to the attacking team, not sure what the gest mechanism would be for that

Clareman · 08-06-2021 10:51am

I don't think 65s are the problem, the problem is that is relatively easy to hit the ball accurately over 80 meters, it used to be that only a couple of players on the pitch could do it, a lot of teams had a dedicated long distance free taker, now the "normal" free taker can put them over from inside their own 65, and it's not just about going over rather it's being driven over an hitting the net behind the goal. This isn't a problem confined to hurling either, golf has a similar issue, as players and equipment gets better and better the rules have to adapt, how they adapt I don't know, I think a change to the ball would be the easiest change.

Davys Fits · 08-06-2021 10:58am

Clareman wrote: »

I don't think 65s are the problem, the problem is that is relatively easy to hit the ball accurately over 80 meters, it used to be that only a couple of players on the pitch could do it, a lot of teams had a dedicated long distance free taker, now the "normal" free taker can put them over from inside their own 65, and it's not just about going over rather it's being driven over an hitting the net behind the goal. This isn't a problem confined to hurling either, golf has a similar issue, as players and equipment gets better and better the rules have to adapt, how they adapt I don't know, I think a change to the ball would be the easiest change.

Golf clubs have limits on dimensions. Why not hurleys? I would worry that the hurley bos will just get bigger to match a heavier ball. Surely some sort of limit is required. Interesting to hear Pete Finnerty saying that players couldnt play with goalkeepers hurling in his day but now you can play with whatever you like.

Avon8 · 08-06-2021 11:05am

Clareman wrote: »

I don't think 65s are the problem, the problem is that is relatively easy to hit the ball accurately over 80 meters, it used to be that only a couple of players on the pitch could do it, a lot of teams had a dedicated long distance free taker, now the "normal" free taker can put them over from inside their own 65, and it's not just about going over rather it's being driven over an hitting the net behind the goal. This isn't a problem confined to hurling either, golf has a similar issue, as players and equipment gets better and better the rules have to adapt, how they adapt I don't know, I think a change to the ball would be the easiest change.

It's not that 65's are the problem, there's obviously a few (despite hurling still being wonderful). It's just that they make absolutely no sense.

I've never yet heard a logical reason as to why someone should be rewarded with a handy score for a deflected wide ball. The closest anyone's got is "it's the way it's always been done"

Rosita · 08-06-2021 11:10am

Avon8 wrote: »

I've never yet heard a logical reason as to why someone should be rewarded with a handy score for a deflected wide ball. The closest anyone's got is "it's the way it's always been done"

The logical reason is easy - it discourages defenders taking the easy option of playing the ball over their own endline as a defensive tactic. I imagine you've heard that reason before. The real point about 65s is what might happen if they weren't there.

Of course it was imagined at a time when a 65 was not a guaranteed score. So there might be a debate to have. But the initial rationale behind the need for a '65 or some censure against taking the easy option if playing the ball over your endline is solid.

Pogue eile · 08-06-2021 11:12am

Avon8 wrote: »

It's not that 65's are the problem, there's obviously a few (despite hurling still being wonderful). It's just that they make absolutely no sense.

I've never yet heard a logical reason as to why someone should be rewarded with a handy score for a deflected wide ball. The closest anyone's got is "it's the way it's always been done"

Can you tell me in what sport is it any different? If the defending team puts the ball out of play them the attacking team gets possession, its a very simple and universal concept. Anything else would be farcical with lads running off the field or hitting the ball out over their own end line.

The only question that remains is in what form that possession is awarded. The 65 seems perfectly logical to me.

breezy1985 · 08-06-2021 11:14am

Rosita wrote: »

The logical reason is easy - it discourages defenders taking the easy option of playing the ball over their own endline as a defensive tactic. I imagine you've heard that reason before. The real point about 65s is what might happen if they weren't there.

Of course it was imagined at a time when a 65 was not a guaranteed score. So there might be a debate to have. But the initial rationale behind the need for a '65 or some censure against taking the easy option if playing the ball over your endline is solid.

How is that an easy option as it would turn over possession and if it was that easy an option defenders would be knocking it over the sidelines all the time. Might as well hand it to your marker

Rosita · 08-06-2021 11:31am

breezy1985 wrote: »

How is that an easy option as it would turn over possession and if it was that easy an option defenders would be knocking it over the sidelines all the time. Might as well hand it to your marker

You are completely missing the point. Hitting the ball over your own endline is easy. The reason players don't do it is the punishment which is a 65. Yes, as things stand its like handing the ball to your marker - that's the whole point. The argument being made is against 65s or at least the inevitability of a score from one.

I get zero enjoyment from watching someone score a 65 but its something that needs to be thought through. In soccer they are happy enough to do deflect the ball over their endline and take their chances defending a corner.

Avon8 · 08-06-2021 11:49am

Pogue eile wrote: »

Can you tell me in what sport is it any different? If the defending team puts the ball out of play them the attacking team gets possession, its a very simple and universal concept. Anything else would be farcical with lads running off the field or hitting the ball out over their own end line.

The only question that remains is in what form that possession is awarded. The 65 seems perfectly logical to me.

You've described it there exactly yourself. The attacking team in every other sport gets possession, i.e. they get the platform to restart the game with themselves in possession. They don't get a simple opportunity to score (and thus put the ball back out of play immediately, all the while knocking 30 seconds off the clock).

So you think it's logical that an attacker is shooting, the defender makes a brave block to prevent a point, and the defenders reward for the block is an automatic point from the resultant 65? That's not even a hyperbolic scenario, that's literally how the majority of 65's are awarded

Avon8 · 08-06-2021 11:56am

Rosita wrote: »

You are completely missing the point. Hitting the ball over your own endline is easy. The reason players don't do it is the punishment which is a 65. Yes, as things stand its like handing the ball to your marker - that's the whole point. The argument being made is against 65s or at least the inevitability of a score from one.

I don't really see how he was missing the point? The deterrent is handing possession to your opponent. That'll still be the case if you make 65's indirect, or make them playable from the ground only, or make them playable from the corner/sideline. You'll still be giving up possession. When was the last time you saw a defender under pressure near the sideline pull on the ball and voluntarily give away a sideline? Basically never. Possession is important. It's largely irrelevant also, 65's generally come from block downs and saves by goalkeepers. We reward blocking scores with automatic scores

Rosita · 08-06-2021 11:59am

Avon8 wrote: »

You've described it there exactly yourself. The attacking team in every other sport gets possession, i.e. they get the platform to restart the game with themselves in possession. They don't get a simple opportunity to score (and thus put the ball back out of play immediately, all the while knocking 30 seconds off the clock).

So you think it's logical that an attacker is shooting, the defender makes a brave block to prevent a point, and the defenders reward for the block is an automatic point from the resultant 65? That's not even a hyperbolic scenario, that's literally how the majority of 65's are awarded

In fairness to that poster they simply argued the logic for the existence of a 65. You were the one saying that you hadn't heard a logical reason for it.

But they did not argue that it should be retained as is.

Avon8 · 08-06-2021 12:03pm

Fair enough. Maybe I didn't make it clear that the attacking team would retain possession. Of course they would, in any scenario

Edit: I hadn't seen your reply on the previous page either @Rosita

cosatron · 08-06-2021 12:12pm

one change i would like to see made is that the hand pass be banned and all passing is off the hurl. Couple of reasons for this .
1. majority of players throw the ball, our own johnny coen one of the worst culprits.
2. encourage the player to move the ball faster, if he gets bottled up there is no easy out with a thrown hand pass
3. there will be more flicks and touches of the hurl which look great, joe cannings flick into concannon for our goal was a lovely move
4. increase the skill level and use of the hurl and no more 3 or 4 hand passing in a row which is boring if we want that we will watch football.
5. Margin for error is greater and then as a consequence, the entertainment level will be higher

Avon8 · 08-06-2021 12:19pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGDcuXlrwII

James Skehill, who's surprisingly quite a decent pundit, talking about the importance of a Sliotars rims over the importance of weight. Last 5 mins

Rosita · 08-06-2021 12:20pm

Avon8 wrote: »

I don't really see how he was missing the point?

Because I said that for a defender hitting a ball over the end line is an easy option. Probably the easiest thing a defender can physically do in a difficult situation. Therefore the 65 is there as a disincentive.

He was argued that it's not an easy option because the 65 is there. Completely different point. I was pointing out the existence of the 65 is perfectly logical.

(The question of whether is a still fair, relevant and proportionate is another argument of course.)

bucketybuck · 08-06-2021 12:30pm

Pogue eile wrote: »

The only question that remains is in what form that possession is awarded. The 65 seems perfectly logical to me.

If 65's are guaranteed scores, then I wonder at what distance the shot becomes more of a 50/50?

I know in the NFL they moved the distance for the extra point after a touchdown out from 20 yards to 33 yards and it resulted in more missed attempts. How far back would the 65's have to go?

I suspect that quantifying that distance would really highlight the problem at hand. Can't deny that scores are too easy if they have to take 65's from their own half back line...

randd1 · 08-06-2021 12:32pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

If 65's are guaranteed scores, then I wonder at what distance the shot becomes more of a 50/50?

I know in the NFL they moved the distance for the extra point after a touchdown out from 20 yards to 33 yards and it resulted in more missed attempts. How far back would the 65's have to go?

I suspect that quantifying that distance would really highlight the problem at hand. Can't deny that scores are too easy if they have to take 65's from their own half back line...

A strike direct from the ground from the 45 instead perhaps?

Eoinbmw · 08-06-2021 12:39pm

randd1 wrote: »

A strike direct from the ground from the 45 instead perhaps?

Just have indirect 65's! more goal chances then!

robbiezero · 08-06-2021 12:50pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

If 65's are guaranteed scores, then I wonder at what distance the shot becomes more of a 50/50?

I know in the NFL they moved the distance for the extra point after a touchdown out from 20 yards to 33 yards and it resulted in more missed attempts. How far back would the 65's have to go?

I suspect that quantifying that distance would really highlight the problem at hand. Can't deny that scores are too easy if they have to take 65's from their own half back line...

I'd like to see something that could be done very quickly if needed rather than the whole rigmarole around a free and someone from the full forward line trotting all the way back out the field to their own half to take it.
Something like a strike out of the hand from where the ball went out etc, a la a sideline in Gaelic football or a throw in in soccer.
Not sure how workable it would be in hurling though, but something that just got play going very quickly again with possession to the attacking team.

flasher0030 · 08-06-2021 12:53pm

Eoinbmw wrote: »

Just have indirect 65's! more goal chances then!

Would there be that many 65's in a game that would make it worth while changing the '65 format? I wouldn't have thought changing it would make any big difference to anything really.

Be careful what you wish for. I'm more into the football. And the recent changes brought in about the mark and the penalty for a pull down have reduced to the game to a farce. Hopefully those changes will be reversed soon.

ArmaniJeanss · 08-06-2021 1:04pm

Rosita wrote: »

You are completely missing the point. Hitting the ball over your own endline is easy. The reason players don't do it is the punishment which is a 65. Yes, as things stand its like handing the ball to your marker - that's the whole point. The argument being made is against 65s or at least the inevitability of a score from one.

I get zero enjoyment from watching someone score a 65 but its something that needs to be thought through. In soccer they are happy enough to do deflect the ball over their endline and take their chances defending a corner.

I guess it would be possible to have a different outcome for a) a save/deflection that goes out behind the end-line, and b) deliberately putting the ball out of play behind your end-line.
a) can be something unlikely to be a direct score, maybe a sideline '65 or perhaps even a soccer corner whilst b) can remain a central '65.

I remember the Cork keeper making an absolutely impossible save a few years ago, and the opposition just slotting over the '65. It didn't seem morally right to me.

robbiezero · 08-06-2021 1:07pm

flasher0030 wrote: »

Would there be that many 65's in a game that would make it worth while changing the '65 format? I wouldn't have thought changing it would make any big difference to anything really.

Be careful what you wish for. I'm more into the football. And the recent changes brought in about the mark and the penalty for a pull down have reduced to the game to a farce. Hopefully those changes will be reversed soon.

The attacking mark was a complete joke. Some rule changes have unfortunate or unforeseen side effects when implemented, but an idiot would have copped how the attacking mark would be used.

breezy1985 · 08-06-2021 1:20pm

Rosita wrote: »

You are completely missing the point. Hitting the ball over your own endline is easy. The reason players don't do it is the punishment which is a 65. Yes, as things stand its like handing the ball to your marker - that's the whole point. The argument being made is against 65s or at least the inevitability of a score from one.

I get zero enjoyment from watching someone score a 65 but its something that needs to be thought through. In soccer they are happy enough to do deflect the ball over their endline and take their chances defending a corner.

But currently if what you are saying is such a good easy option why are we not seeing players pinned to the endline not just popping it over the side for a cut. You are completely overplaying how many players will put it over the end if a change is made the real number will be close to 0 and most players will still try play it out or hoof it

Corcaigh84 · 08-06-2021 1:29pm

Whatever about the weight of the ball, which I think is far too light, the actual rule that allows the 'rugby with sticks' style of possession play to flourish is the unlimited use of the handpass.

Years ago it was practiced less and seemed to be an emergency option if you will. These days it's integral to the style of play which involves breaking the tackle and throwing it to the lad 10 yards or less from you.

Someone mentioned an experimental game - what about a match where handpassing was banned? I think it would force the players to actually hurl more - and by extension cause more turnovers as close passes will go astray more often. This would then lead to more longer passes attempted (I'd rather flake it and be sure than try the 10 yard stick pass go wrong / be intercepted) and more 50/50 balls that a lot of spectators seem to miss.

Hurling will always evolve for sure, but I think a lot of what made it great was the element of randomness and unpredictability as opposed to the formulaic way it's going.

randd1 · 08-06-2021 1:36pm

Corcaigh84 wrote: »

Whatever about the weight of the ball, which I think is far too light, the actual rule that allows the 'rugby with sticks' style of possession play to flourish is the unlimited use of the handpass.

Years ago it was practiced less and seemed to be an emergency option if you will. These days it's integral to the style of play which involves breaking the tackle and throwing it to the lad 10 yards or less from you.

Someone mentioned an experimental game - what about a match where handpassing was banned? I think it would force the players to actually hurl more - and by extension cause more turnovers as close passes will go astray more often. This would then lead to more longer passes attempted (I'd rather flake it and be sure than try the 10 yard stick pass go wrong / be intercepted) and more 50/50 balls that a lot of spectators seem to miss.

Hurling will always evolve for sure, but I think a lot of what made it great was the element of randomness and unpredictability as opposed to the formulaic way it's going.

The joy, the heartbeat, the soul, of hurling is in the contest.

Take the contest out of hurling, and it becomes a dull game. These days, for all the great unprecedented levels of skill, it's becoming hockey with handling.

Sir Guy who smiles · 08-06-2021 1:39pm

Corcaigh84 wrote: »

Someone mentioned an experimental game - what about a match where handpassing was banned? I think it would force the players to actually hurl more - and by extension cause more turnovers as close passes will go astray more often. This would then lead to more longer passes attempted (I'd rather flake it and be sure than try the 10 yard stick pass go wrong / be intercepted) and more 50/50 balls that a lot of spectators seem to miss.....

Did any of you watch the hurling/shiny internationals? Players can't catch the ball at all i think, but a lot of the irish players showed great skill at keeping the ball alive with just the stick. As well players couldn't barge past defenders with ball in hand. Of course, the great skill of fielding the ball was gone. Now, if you could catch it but not hand pass it, I wonder what kind if game you'd see.

Clareman · 08-06-2021 1:49pm

Davys Fits wrote: »

Golf clubs have limits on dimensions. Why not hurleys? I would worry that the hurley bos will just get bigger to match a heavier ball. Surely some sort of limit is required. Interesting to hear Pete Finnerty saying that players couldnt play with goalkeepers hurling in his day but now you can play with whatever you like.

There is a limit, I think it's 13cm or something like that but it's not enforced anywhere

Clareman · 08-06-2021 1:52pm

I just checked my child's 22" hurley, it's got a bas of 14cm....

Clareman · 08-06-2021 1:59pm

Rule 4.5 from here

4.5 The bas of a hurley at its widest point shall not be more than 13cm

Easy fix to hurling, apply the rules for the handpass and for the hurley dimensions.

Camabu · 08-06-2021 2:05pm

How about the following changes

All free's out past and including the opponents 65 to be indirect
Only allowed handpass (not throw) when you don't have room to strike with the hurl i.e. bottled up by one or more opponent.
5 sec rule for the scrum ball. Results in a throw in 1V1 with no other players within 10meters
Change drag profile of the Sliothar by raising the rim and review the inner contents of the ball to see what can be done to limit the avg distance that a ball is struck. Its far to common to see pucks from inside the opposing 45' drop at least 10-15 yards beyond the opposing goal.

Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

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