Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

cgcsb · 02-06-2021 2:51pm

bk wrote: »

If you are talking about 200km/h trains to Cork, you are already into fantasy land.

It is very expensive to put up and there really isn't enough demand between Cork and Dublin to justify the cost.

It might happen still, but we are currently in a disruptive period when other options might make that expense unnecessary.

That's the future of intercity rail. 200kmh isn't ambitious, this is common in Austria, Sweden, Portugal etc on less heavily used lines. Dublin to Cork is very heavily subscribed, so much so that the service is going to one train every half hour as part of the 2027 strategy.

L1011 · 02-06-2021 2:52pm

Portugal did very extensive rural, diesel, network closures in the late 00s - that will have significantly improved the electrified %.

marno21 · 02-06-2021 3:09pm

Economics101 wrote: »

There are many electrified lines in Europe with less traffic than Dublin-Cork. Sure, the cost of the overhead and other infrastructure is not trivial, but often these projects include track and signalling renewal of which would not be a big issue here.

As for the need to double Glounthane-Midleton, the existing infrastructure is adequate for a much greater level of service: at present its one 2-car train per hour to Midleton for most of the day. The line can easily accommodate a 30 minute frequency with 4-car trains, effectively a quadrupling of capacity.

The upgrade seems to imply significant increases in capacity to cater for development at Carrigtwohill, Water Rock and Midleton.

bk · 02-06-2021 3:40pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Dublin to Cork is very heavily subscribed, so much so that the service is going to one train every half hour as part of the 2027 strategy.

So matching the intercity coaches frequency by 2027!

Joking aside, I'd love to see it but is this actually happening? Has it been approved?

AFAIK it is just part of the Irish Rail 2027 strategy, but is actually part of Project Ireland 2040, which seems more likely, but hasn't actually been approved. And even then, they only mention:

Additional services to achieve 30-minute intervals at peak times. Renewal of all track on the Dublin/Cork line and removal of level crossings towards improving journey times.

It is welcome, but doesn't sound like high speed or electrification to me.

L1011 wrote: »

Portugal did very extensive rural, diesel, network closures in the late 00s - that will have significantly improved the electrified %.

Jeez, don't be go giving Irish Rail ideas. They would love to close all lines but the DART, they could claim 100% electrification then! :eek:

hans aus dtschl · 02-06-2021 3:49pm

bk wrote: »

Jeez, don't be go giving Irish Rail ideas. They would love to close all lines but the DART, they could claim 100% electrification then! :eek:

They quite like Cobh too, you know.
I see it as something that Cork City and County should be pushing for as much as possible. There's not the reluctance within IÉ towards that Cobh line, that there is in other parts of the country. Cork suburban rail has a future IMO.

Peregrine · 02-06-2021 4:32pm

bk wrote: »

Joking aside, I'd love to see it but is this actually happening? Has it been approved?

AFAIK it is just part of the Irish Rail 2027 strategy, but is actually part of Project Ireland 2040, which seems more likely, but hasn't actually been approved. And even then, they only mention

It's not really in anything at the moment. The National Development Plan 2018-2027 commits to a feasibility study for high speed rail between Belfast and Cork. But this will also look at opportunities for higher speed rail and general line speed improvements. This is being done as part of the all-island Strategic Rail Review. The tender for that will be awarded this summer and should take about a year.

I expect it to recommend higher speed rail operating at around 200 km/h along with general line speed improvements. Whether it will be implemented or not is another story. Proper high speed rail in Ireland is a pipe dream for now.

Carawaystick · 02-06-2021 9:24pm

Is the suburban service running to Mallow or just Blarney on the North bit?

SeanMur93 · 02-06-2021 10:41pm

What will it be called ? CART?

GavRedKing · 02-06-2021 10:50pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Yeah I think it's to have a 3rd through platform to avoid issues with Intercity trains.

This image from CMATS gives you an idea of where it'll be - on the outside of the main station where the commuter train in the second image is running on the left of the picture.

That platform looks like it's down the outside of the current platform 5, which is used to branch off to shunt trains to the sheds/fueling sidings.

You can run around there and back out towards the Midelton/Cobh roads.

Interesting times ahead for Cork.

IE 222 · 02-06-2021 10:56pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Is the suburban service running to Mallow or just Blarney on the North bit?

They talk about overtaking on the line which would presumably mean Blarney would have turn back platforms. Can't see Mallow requiring a 10 min frequency either. The hourly Dublin service and possibly an hourly Mallow/Tralee would be more than adequate for Mallow.

Economics101 · 02-06-2021 11:35pm

You can run departures from Cork at 4 per hour (2 non-stop to Mallow plus 2 stopping at the proposed 3 or 4 stations) without intermediate passing loops or turnbacks. You might need some track alterations at Mallow. Passing loops or turnbacks between Cork and Mallow would be a scandalous waste of money when similar facilities are much more urgently needed on the Dublin suburban network

IE 222 · 03-06-2021 12:06am

cgcsb wrote: »

There's no way a battery can store enough power to move a train at 200km/h or more between Hazelhatch and Mallow even in the distant future, that's electric jet plane talk. Hydrogen is a tech that will be useful to replace diesel on the lesser used lines, that's the approach Germany has taken. You may see it being used on Dublin to Westport in the future but it doesn't offer the breaking and accelleration efficiency that electric trains have and there's still bulky transport of fuel to consider and of course the energy inefficiency of using electricity to create hydrogen to power trains vs using just using electricity to directly power trains.

Still very early days for hydrogen. Current hydro trains are already within our current intercity fleet performance and capabilities. With 4 or 5 stop intercity services breaking and accelerating efficiencies will be rather minimal between electric and hydrogen. Some of these lesser German lines would have higher frequencies than parts of our core Intercity network. Electrification is by no means cheap. Its questionable if demand would justify electrification beyond Kildare. Even allowing for a generous increase in frequency across the board its unlikely we'll see 10 tph beyond Kildare for a very long time and you don't need to go much further south before that number dwindles right down.

With the direction and expansion into wind power we seem to be taking, producing hydrogen with the excess power during off peak demand would be a very efficient way of reusing power. There is already plans for a rather large hydrogen production plant in Cork to the extend we will become exporters of the fuel.

Ideally if hydrogen power can advance to produce 125mph trains and improved performances I think it would be much better to invest in bringing the infrastructure up to 125mph running rather than putting up wiring and upgrading any electrical infrastructure previously in place within the suburban networks.

IE 222 · 03-06-2021 12:28am

Economics101 wrote: »

You can run departures from Cork at 4 per hour (2 non-stop to Mallow plus 2 stopping at the proposed 3 or 4 stations) without intermediate passing loops or turnbacks. You might need some track alterations at Mallow. Passing loops or turnbacks between Cork and Mallow would be a scandalous waste of money when similar facilities are much more urgently needed on the Dublin suburban network

A 10min frequency to Blarney was been mooted in the plans. Presumably a stopper service with a limited maximum speed is going to take in the region of 30/35mins to travel between Cork and Mallow which will delay intercity services. Cork to Blarney will be a blank canvas. Stations need to be built from scratch. Building 2 island platforms at Blarney from the beginning wouldn't be a waste of money.

marno21 · 03-06-2021 1:42pm

https://twitter.com/corkcommuter/status/1400398369151930368?s=21

https://twitter.com/corkcommuter/status/1400400449644150784?s=21

Super stuff.

cgcsb · 03-06-2021 3:04pm

Wow, I've literally never seen anything in this state move as quickly and efficiently, maybe the temporary sub standard cycle tracks in Dublin but never anything involving substantial infrastructure works. All it took was a decision to actually just stfu and do it after decades of chat, reports, press releases and glossy brochures.

Edit:
I take it back the construction of over 1,000km of motorway in the late 00's and early 10's was nothing short of heroic and easily one of the fastest road building programs in Europe since Hitler's autobhann schemes. Clearly there is great potential in this country when we just decide to actually go and do something.

We must have forgotten how to do things recently (in the late 20th century) because the early Irish state cleared the colonial era slums, built entire towns (Marino, Crumlin, Cabra, Shannon) along with airports, they brought paved roads to every single boreen in the state with electricity and telegram poles to match. This was done with basically no money and completed in 1 or 2 decades, a complete transformation.

More of the same please, I hope this is a return to the more can-do ways of bygone eras before we had glossy brochures, reports and consultations. Start lashing up power lines on the commuter rail network and closing crossing points. Get the tunnel boring machines going for metrolink and start building the cbcs. The state has the money in cash and access to nearly unlimited finance, just get and do it. Worry about marketing, logos and brochures after it's done. Take the same attitude to housing while at it.

Hibernicis · 03-06-2021 5:22pm

Sorry to put a damper on this but two weeks back, in this article, we were told that €274 million was going to get us:

8 new stations at Blarney, Monard, Kilbarry, Tivoli, Dunkettle (P&R), Carrigtwohill West, Water Rock & Ballynoe.
10km of double tracking between Glounthane & Midleton
Electrification of the network
10 min frequency Glounthane-Midleton/Cobh, 5 min frequency Kent-Glounthane, 10 min frequency Kent-Blarney
22 new 2 car train sets required
62km of overall network

From everything I’ve read the more recent “announcement” is little more than a press release containing a few soundbites which tells us that that €184 million is going to get us:

No New Stations 3 stations (Blarney, Blackpool and Tivoli) which will be built “in time”, whatever that means
10km of double tracking between Glounthane & Midleton
A through running line (much of which is already in situ) and possibly an outdoor platform on that exposed and windswept open space behind Kent station
Re-signalling in preparation for electrification

Missing from this are 5 stations, (or maybe more) no electrification, no rolling stock, no line improvements. Sounds like most of it will go on doubletracking Glounthane to Midleton which based on what was said here is actually just sorting out a short-sited decision 20 years ago

Has there been wicked construction inflation in the last two weeks or am I missing something ?

Peregrine · 03-06-2021 5:56pm

Hibernicis wrote: »

Sorry to put a damper on this but two weeks back, in this article, we were told that €274 million was going to get us:
8 new stations at Blarney, Monard, Kilbarry, Tivoli, Dunkettle (P&R), Carrigtwohill West, Water Rock & Ballynoe.

10km of double tracking between Glounthane & Midleton

Electrification of the network

10 min frequency Glounthane-Midleton/Cobh, 5 min frequency Kent-Glounthane, 10 min frequency Kent-Blarney

22 new 2 car train sets required

62km of overall network

From everything I’ve read the more recent “announcement” is little more than a press release containing a few soundbites which tells us that that €184 million is going to get us:
3 stations (Blarney, Blackpool and Tivoli) which will be built “in time”, whatever that means

10km of double tracking between Glounthane & Midleton

A through running line (much of which is already in situ) and possibly an outdoor platform on that exposed and windswept open space behind Kent station

Re-signalling in preparation for electrification

Missing from this are 5 stations, (or maybe more) no electrification, no rolling stock, no line improvements. Sounds like most of it will go on doubletracking Glounthane to Midleton which based on what was said here is actually just sorting out a short-sited decision 20 years ago

Has there been wicked construction inflation in the last two weeks or am I missing something ?

€274m was never realistic. I don't know why that figure was included. 62km of track electrification and resignalling alone will cost €274m.

Also, the €184m doesn't include construction of the three stations.

namloc1980 · 03-06-2021 7:47pm

Hibernicis wrote: »

Sorry to put a damper on this but two weeks back, in this article, we were told that €274 million was going to get us:
8 new stations at Blarney, Monard, Kilbarry, Tivoli, Dunkettle (P&R), Carrigtwohill West, Water Rock & Ballynoe.

10km of double tracking between Glounthane & Midleton

Electrification of the network

10 min frequency Glounthane-Midleton/Cobh, 5 min frequency Kent-Glounthane, 10 min frequency Kent-Blarney

22 new 2 car train sets required

62km of overall network

From everything I’ve read the more recent “announcement” is little more than a press release containing a few soundbites which tells us that that €184 million is going to get us:
3 stations (Blarney, Blackpool and Tivoli) which will be built “in time”, whatever that means

10km of double tracking between Glounthane & Midleton

A through running line (much of which is already in situ) and possibly an outdoor platform on that exposed and windswept open space behind Kent station

Re-signalling in preparation for electrification

Missing from this are 5 stations, (or maybe more) no electrification, no rolling stock, no line improvements. Sounds like most of it will go on doubletracking Glounthane to Midleton which based on what was said here is actually just sorting out a short-sited decision 20 years ago

Has there been wicked construction inflation in the last two weeks or am I missing something ?

€274m was the cost guesstimate from the CMATS plan. It isn't realistic at all to deliver everything that is in CMATS.

Pete_Cavan · 03-06-2021 8:36pm

I presume that there is no immediate need for electrification as the rolling stock to be used will be diesels anyway, freed up when the new DART+ units arrive?

If not part of this funding package, you would hope the Blarney station P&R at least could be funded from elsewhere, the M20 pot possibly. Or maybe Minister Ryan could push P&Rs and fund both it and Dunkettle separately.

Hibernicis · 03-06-2021 10:58pm

Peregrine wrote: »

€274m was never realistic. I don't know why that figure was included. 62km of track electrification and resignalling alone will cost €274m.

Also, the €184m doesn't include construction of the three stations.

Thanks for clarifying that.

So basically no electrification, no new stations, no new rolling stock, no platform in Kent station ?

In which case the various headlines and announcements sound like a lot of very misleading PR guff from the Greens and M.Martin. Reading back through the statements they are full of “will facilitate” “will enable” “will allow” etc. So misleading in fact that they even misled themselves:

https://twitter.com/oliver_moran/status/1399845686565388300?s=20

In his words "€185m will be used to put in place a commuter network from Mallow, Blarney and Blackpool to Tivoli, Little Island and Cobh/Midleton via Kent Station" when in fact it is doing nothing of the sort.

Or to quote Micheal Martin "Taoiseach Micheál Martin said the enhanced commuter rail service will deliver the proposed transport network needed to underpin the significant population and employment growth envisaged for Cork under the NPF 2040. The €185.4m will allow increased connectivity between the Mallow to Cork lines and the Midleton/Cobh to Cork lines, including the upgrading of Kent station and new stations along the route."

Fully appreciate that the double tracking and signalling work is a good thing and that it is a first step in a long series of steps needed to build a modern, efficient, green, frequent and reliable commuter rail network in Cork. And it should be publicised as such, not mis-sold as a commuter network from Mallow, Blarney and Blackpool to Tivoli, Little Island and Cobh/Midleton via Kent Station when in fact it is no such thing.

Ryan expressed a lot of confidence in Iarnrod Eireann the other day, saying that they had all the expertise and skills necessary to deliver this quickly. I hope that the through running in Kent station isn't going to turn into another Iarnrod Eireann "Dart Underground" saga where they spend years looking for a gold plated solution when there is a perfectly adequate short-medium term solution already in place. Ditto double tracking the Glounthaune to Midleton stretch - while this is no bad thing in itself, is it the best use of resources at this time and is it a priority - in other words when will this become a necessity based on traffic volumes and train frequency ?

I suspect we would get a lot more bang for buck if the money were spent on essential signalling, a few additional stations/station upgrades and some additional rolling stock.

You know, what we really need is a single body responsible for Transport Infrastructure in Ireland that thinks strategically and prioritises and plans accordingly and which keeps this important stuff far away from the politicians generally and these Green amateurs in particular. Now there's a revolutionary thought. Let's start a campaign to get "Transport Infrastructure Ireland" set-up. It's badly needed.

Hibernicis · 03-06-2021 11:06pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I presume that there is no immediate need for electrification as the rolling stock to be used will be diesels anyway, freed up when the new DART+ units arrive?

If not part of this funding package, you would hope the Blarney station P&R at least could be funded from elsewhere, the M20 pot possibly. Or maybe Minister Ryan could push P&Rs and fund both it and Dunkettle separately.

That makes sense. Or maybe prioritising a few adjacent stations, say the ones on the north western side (Blarney, Monard and Blackpool) and buying a couple of diesel train sets (second hand ?) would allow a rudimentary commuter service to get up and running and would help CCC prioritise house building on the corridor and its environs, while the great multi decade all encompassing grand master plan chugs away in the background for most of the rest of our lives. A bit like the original DART line in Dublin got going and inspired/cloned many other Dart Lines (admittedly almost 40 years later)

IE 222 · 04-06-2021 12:13am

Even with a blank cheque, it would take a number of years to deliver this project in its entirety. Getting the infrastructure in place and prepped allows them to bring gradual improvements. Once the 2900 fleet is freed up with the arrival of the new Dart fleet, capacity and frequency increases could be implemented straightaway, the 41 ICRs arrival might even free up 2800s in Limerick for transfer if needed. You wouldn't have much left over from the €185m buying a new fleet for Cork. Stations can be added when required. Blarney, Monard, Tivoli and others along the Midleton are lightly populated currently. Kent will need extra platforms to run any kind of high frequency through service. I would imagine electrification will commence after the Dart upgrades.

GavRedKing · 04-06-2021 7:17am

The Youghal Greenway while a noble idea would be great if they re-opened the line from Midelton-Youghal.

I can't see the Midelton-Youghal Greenway being the success the Waterford one is and it seems to be that a few residents in Youghal see it as a chance to rejuvenate the town.

Pete_Cavan · 04-06-2021 7:29am

Hibernicis wrote: »

Ryan expressed a lot of confidence in Iarnrod Eireann the other day, saying that they had all the expertise and skills necessary to deliver this quickly. I hope that the through running in Kent station isn't going to turn into another Iarnrod Eireann "Dart Underground" saga where they spend years looking for a gold plated solution when there is a perfectly adequate short-medium term solution already in place. Ditto double tracking the Glounthaune to Midleton stretch - while this is no bad thing in itself, is it the best use of resources at this time and is it a priority - in other words when will this become a necessity based on traffic volumes and train frequency ?

Not sure I agree with this. I see the sense in getting the signalling upgraded and the double tracking done first as these are the bones the commuter service can be built on. Starting the service and then having to go back and double track will only result in more disruption and cost. Once the basic infrastructure is in place, you can tack on stations later.

I'd rather they do a proper job at Kent now too. Simply sticking another platform on the curve outside the existing main platforms is not going to achieve much. If anything, what gets done under this project will likely be it for a long time so better to do it right now. Surely it shouldn't be too difficult to create separate terminating and through platforms here?

loyatemu · 04-06-2021 9:09am

GavRedKing wrote: »

The Youghal Greenway while a noble idea would be great if they re-opened the line from Midelton-Youghal.

I can't see the Midelton-Youghal Greenway being the success the Waterford one is and it seems to be that a few residents in Youghal see it as a chance to rejuvenate the town.

Youghal as it is is a tiny place. It would only make sense if you earmarked the town for expansion as a commuter town, which IMO would be bad policy given how far it is from Cork.

marno21 · 04-06-2021 9:39am

My understanding is that there is two strands involved here

A. EU funding is available for “recovery projects” that are both green/climate friendly and shovel ready. There are very few projects which tick these two boxes in Ireland atm so the Government applied for funding for the elements of Cork suburban rail which are straightforward, don’t require planning permission or major design etc.

B. Exchequer funding will be released for other elements as they receive planning/are designed (electrification/stations etc)

The EU funding is most welcome here as it’s independent of Irish capital budgets so this is in effect extra money.

GavRedKing · 04-06-2021 10:19am

loyatemu wrote: »

Youghal as it is is a tiny place. It would only make sense if you earmarked the town for expansion as a commuter town, which IMO would be bad policy given how far it is from Cork.

A station at Mogeely/Castlemartyr might cure some of the chronic traffic going through that part of the world.

Pete_Cavan · 04-06-2021 10:39am

Youghal station was an awful location, most of the residents of the town would have to drive to it anyway and most would just keep driving. Castlemartyr needs to be byassed anyway, that bypass, a P&R station east of Midleton plus the greenway would be better value and have more benefit than reinstating the rail line all the way to Youghal.

Hibernicis · 04-06-2021 10:45am

marno21 wrote: »

My understanding is that there is two strands involved here

A. EU funding is available for “recovery projects” that are both green/climate friendly and shovel ready. There are very few projects which tick these two boxes in Ireland atm so the Government applied for funding for the elements of Cork suburban rail which are straightforward, don’t require planning permission or major design etc.

B. Exchequer funding will be released for other elements as they receive planning/are designed (electrification/stations etc)

The EU funding is most welcome here as it’s independent of Irish capital budgets so this is in effect extra money.

Thanks Marno21. Makes a lot more sense when it is set-out like that instead of politicians trying to present it as something that it isn't.

hans aus dtschl · 04-06-2021 5:52pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If not part of this funding package, you would hope the Blarney station P&R at least could be funded from elsewhere, the M20 pot possibly.

I personally think it should come from the M20 pot. Just an opinion.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Youghal station was an awful location, most of the residents of the town would have to drive to it anyway and most would just keep driving. Castlemartyr needs to be byassed anyway, that bypass, a P&R station east of Midleton plus the greenway would be better value and have more benefit than reinstating the rail line all the way to Youghal.

Yep, I strongly agree with this. I think a Mogeely station would only be viable in conjunction with a massive Urban Expansion project in Mogeely. Which, like Youghal, is unlikely.

marno21 · 01-07-2021 12:02am

Tender out for consultancy services for the Glounthane to Midleton double tracking project.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/191891/1/0

This is moving quite fast.

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 01-07-2021 12:15am

Building new rail infrastructure based on diesel trains seems to be quite unique to Ireland. I’ve never seen it anywhere else in Europe in the modern era.

I don’t think I’ve even ever seen diesel urban trains anywhere else in Europe.

Maybe in the USA ? I know they’re used on long distance MBTA routes eg Boston to Worcester (76km) but I’ve never seen anything like this in the EU.

The whole aim should be zero emissions.

Lacking ambition is an understatement. Other EU green parties would be shocked.

cgcsb · 01-07-2021 2:43pm

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Building new rail infrastructure based on diesel trains seems to be quite unique to Ireland. I’ve never seen it anywhere else in Europe in the modern era.

I don’t think I’ve even ever seen diesel urban trains anywhere else in Europe.

Maybe in the USA ? I know they’re used on long distance MBTA routes eg Boston to Worcester (76km) but I’ve never seen anything like this in the EU.

The whole aim should be zero emissions.

Lacking ambition is an understatement. Other EU green parties would be shocked.

The plan is to electrify though, no?

cgcsb · 01-07-2021 2:44pm

Is the project actually called 'expansion'. This implies new lines, which is not the case. Should it not be 'modernisation'. As I understand no new lines will be built, it's simply an upgrade of what was built in the 19 century, no?

MyLove4Satan · 01-07-2021 6:51pm

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Building new rail infrastructure based on diesel trains seems to be quite unique to Ireland. I’ve never seen it anywhere else in Europe in the modern era.

I don’t think I’ve even ever seen diesel urban trains anywhere else in Europe.

Just because it is unusual does not mean it is wrong. Anyway with battery technology advancing so fast now, how long before overhead catenary is obsolete?

Lots of ways of looking at this and not all of them are negative.

Markcheese · 01-07-2021 7:13pm

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Just because it is unusual does not mean it is wrong. Anyway with battery technology advancing so fast now, how long before overhead catenary is obsolete?

Lots of ways of looking at this and not all of them are negative.

It should be possible to have a section of overhead catenary at stations ,so that a battery electric can rapid charge using a very tried and tested electrical connection - it could work great for Bev buses except for the mix of single and double deckers on the same routes ...

Itssoeasy · 01-07-2021 7:20pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Youghal station was an awful location, most of the residents of the town would have to drive to it anyway and most would just keep driving. Castlemartyr needs to be byassed anyway, that bypass, a P&R station east of Midleton plus the greenway would be better value and have more benefit than reinstating the rail line all the way to Youghal.

How is it in an awful position ? It’s on the seafront and is on the western edge of the town and Midleton railway station isn’t slap bang in the town either. People in the areas around Midleton have to drive to the station to use it as it is.

In all fairness you’re post gives off an air of just general dislike of that part of east cork. I know logic and forward thinking isn’t in plentiful supply at the best of times in this country but maybe preserving a railway line with potential to be reconnected to the rest of the network might be a good idea ?

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 01-07-2021 9:50pm

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Just because it is unusual does not mean it is wrong. Anyway with battery technology advancing so fast now, how long before overhead catenary is obsolete?

Lots of ways of looking at this and not all of them are negative.

You can be pretty confident it’s wrong if nobody else in Europe is doing it.

We’re great for the old exceptionalism.

densification · 02-07-2021 12:21am

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Just because it is unusual does not mean it is wrong. Anyway with battery technology advancing so fast now, how long before overhead catenary is obsolete?

Lots of ways of looking at this and not all of them are negative.

There are only a handful of battery operated trains in the world at the moment. They have extremely limited range and the increased weight due to batteries increases track wear.

Overhead catenary has worked perfectly well for over 100 years. 400 kph high speed trains or 2000 people on a commuter train; it can do it all.

I’m not saying the line should be electrified now, but long term we should electrify it like a normal European country. It’s €1m per km- not going to break the bank for corks small commuter network.

bk · 02-07-2021 11:40am

Markcheese wrote: »

it could work great for Bev buses except for the mix of single and double deckers on the same routes ...

The other issue with it for BEV buses is trying to safely maintain complicated electrical infrastructure out in public streets, brings all sorts of issues with it, plus planning permission, NIMBY's etc.

As a result most bus operators are aiming for buses with all day battery range with in depot charging.

Obviously such issues don't exist for rail lines, thus making overhead charging much easier to do.

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

You can be pretty confident it’s wrong if nobody else in Europe is doing it.

We’re great for the old exceptionalism.

Except it isn't. They are literally 10's of thousand of Kilometres of Diesel operated rail lines over all of Europe.

Take Germany for example, less then half their rail network is electrified. They have over 20,000 km's of Diesel operated lines.

We are far from unique in this regard.

densification wrote: »

There are only a handful of battery operated trains in the world at the moment. They have extremely limited range and the increased weight due to batteries increases track wear.

Overhead catenary has worked perfectly well for over 100 years. 400 kph high speed trains or 2000 people on a commuter train; it can do it all.

I’m not saying the line should be electrified now, but long term we should electrify it like a normal European country. It’s €1m per km- not going to break the bank for corks small commuter network.

Battery trains have been limited until recently, however battery tech has come on leaps and bounds in the past 5 years and we are going to see BEV trains absolutely explode all across Europe over the next 5 years.

Just as it is only now that we are starting to see BEV buses take off here.

Most of those Diesel lines I mention above like in Germany will end up switching to BEV trains over the next decade.

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 02-07-2021 12:29pm

There aren’t Diesel urban commuter trains elsewhere in Europe. The comparison long distance lines / regional services with low population isn’t reasonable.

The use of DMUs on Dublin and Cork urban services is bizarre.

They simply are not used for short suburban services with with frequent stops. That’s normally EMUs.

Bringing frequent diesel trains into city centres and urban areas creates local air and noise pollution and is just a very cheap and nasty, crude solution and one that can’t access green energy.

The “Arrow” services should have been built as DART and the Cork commuter upgrade should also be EMUs

Irish Rail seems to be obsessed with Diesel. They couldn’t even get their head around push-pull or DMUs until the 2000s, decades after other railway operators.

If they’d had a run at it I wouldn’t be surprised if the Luas was built as a Diesel service.

Use of “modern” technology (as in post 1950s concepts) isn’t a strong point in rail here.

Far, far too much of our transit network is run on diesel. The over dependency on Diesel busses is really going on far too long too. We hear about some notion of hybrid or LNG or electric busses. There's a big press launch and then one bus appears and 6 months later it's back to big crude Diesels again...

It's just lip service from policy makers and we are going to end up crashing right through our rather ambitious CO2 emissions targets - totally unachievable with current policies.

Even take the e-Car stuff. Endless talk and there's still a totally inadequate public charger network.

Ireland's great at policy documents and brochures.

densification · 02-07-2021 1:08pm

bk wrote: »

Except it isn't. They are literally 10's of thousand of Kilometres of Diesel operated rail lines over all of Europe.

Take Germany for example, less then half their rail network is electrified. They have over 20,000 km's of Diesel operated lines.

We are far from unique in this regard.

Respectfully, we are a complete outlier when it comes to rail electrification in Europe. Yes. there are lots of lightly used regional lines still diesel in Germany, UK etc but a city rapid transit system being diesel is very rare in Europe.

Ireland currently has 2.75% of its rail network electrified. The EU average is 54%. Dart+ won't even get that to 10%.

Realistically, we should be electrifying Dub-Cork when the Mark 4s retire. With commuter trains going from Mallow-Midleton it makes sense that the whole line is electrified.

L1011 · 02-07-2021 1:13pm

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Irish Rail seems to be obsessed with Diesel. They couldn’t even get their head around push-pull or DMUs until the 2000s, decades after other railway operators.

They had push-pull and DMUs in the CIE era, though. The DART saw the end of push-pull operations which themselves we with life expired DMUs that had been de-engined.

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 02-07-2021 1:17pm

densification wrote: »

Respectfully, we are a complete outlier when it comes to rail electrification in Europe. Yes. there are lots of lightly used regional lines still diesel in Germany, UK etc but a city rapid transit system being diesel is very rare in Europe.

Ireland currently has 2.75% of its rail network electrified. The EU average is 54%. Dart+ won't even get that to 10%.

Realistically, we should be electrifying Dub-Cork when the Mark 4s retire. With commuter trains going from Mallow-Midleton it makes sense that the whole line is electrified.

The Mark 4 could be swapped to electric locomotives pretty cheaply for existing 160kmh services and is capable of 200km/h with brake upgrades. It was designed for that speed. Enterprise coaches could be similarly just swapped to electric locos.

You'd have a fleet of reasonable electric intercity trains for Cork and Belfast with a simple fleet of electric locos.

You could then add hybrid or EMUs to the network as needed.

We should be wiring up the network though, absolutely on metropolitan services.

We tend to get very confused between intercity and commuter/urban rail here in a way that I haven't seen elsewhere too.

All we need to do is pick a network standard i.e. 25kV 50Hz and just build any sections of electrification in any part of the network to that spec.

Intercity not being electric shouldn't be something that's holding back electrifying suburban rail in Cork or Dublin or anywhere else. They're two completely different set of needs. Urban railways need to be quiet, zero emissions and able to do easy frequent start-stop patterns. Long distance rail in Ireland may mostly remain diesel for a long time yet. There's no issue with Diesel Intercity running on lines that are part of an electrified system in Cork or Dublin. That's how the DART has been running since the mid 80s.

You're only talking about 10s of km of electrification needed.

Ireland trains · 02-07-2021 2:23pm

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

The Mark 4 could be swapped to electric locomotives pretty cheaply for existing 160kmh services and is capable of 200km/h with brake upgrades. It was designed for that speed. Enterprise coaches could be similarly just swapped to electric locos.

You'd have a fleet of reasonable electric intercity trains for Cork and Belfast with a simple fleet of electric locos.

You could then add hybrid or EMUs to the network as needed.

We should be wiring up the network though, absolutely on metropolitan services.

We tend to get very confused between intercity and commuter/urban rail here in a way that I haven't seen elsewhere too.

All we need to do is pick a network standard i.e. 25kV 50Hz and just build any sections of electrification in any part of the network to that spec.
.

The next enterprise fleet could realistically be bi-mode as Irish rail is planning on having them in service by 2026/27 as by then nearly a third (50km out of around 180km) of the line of will be electrified.

bk · 02-07-2021 2:23pm

Hold on a second there, there are cities the size of Cork all over Europe served by urban DMU's. It really isn't unique or unusual for a city the size of Cork.

I'll give you Dublin, but Cork on a European scale would be at best considered a small city and some would just consider it a large town. And I say that as a Corkonian!

Given the relatively small size of Cork and the short distances of the commuter lines, BEMU's will work very well there.

Germany has recently placed a €600 million order for BEMU's to replace DMU operated lines to smaller cities just like this.

Economics101 · 02-07-2021 2:24pm

Once you get the overhead and other fixed electrical components in place, then the lower operating costs of electric trains are a huge bonus: just as cheap to buy. easier to maintain, longer life, more reliable, greater acceleration and power. Not to say you shouldn't have hybrid (electric-battery) or perhaps hydrogen for use in a transition phase.

And don't go to the UK for technical advice, they have made a hames of some recent projects (esp GWR). Go to almost any W European country.

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 02-07-2021 2:29pm

I'd like to see some examples of these urban DMUs. I have never seen them in France, Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Italy etc in cities the size of Cork.

There's huge focus on renewable energy and reduction of local air pollution in most countries.

The only modern diesel services I've encountered in France or Spain for example are regional medium distance stuff serving networks of smaller routes, which would be equivalent to most of our intercity network i.e. small pop towns in relatively low density areas.

In France a city the size of Cork would quite likely have a Luas style tram network in place or would be using some advanced electric bus systems and so on.

A city the size of Dublin would have something pretty advanced, with a lot more than 2 tram lines and an electrified 19th century coastal railway.

There are cities like Rennes (very comparable to Cork) and Lille with automated metros at this stage.

We are so far behind it's laughable and we are still going on defending rolling out diesel urban railways in 2021.

You'd never think the Greens were in government.

bk · 02-07-2021 2:34pm

Actually one thought comes to mind. The train tunnel in Cork, is it high enough to put overhead electrical cable in it?

If not, then it would require massive expense to upgrade the tunnel for overhead electrical and then BEMU becomes a much more attractive option.

cgcsb · 02-07-2021 2:54pm

bk wrote: »

Hold on a second there, there are cities the size of Cork all over Europe served by urban DMU's. It really isn't unique or unusual for a city the size of Cork.

I'll give you Dublin, but Cork on a European scale would be at best considered a small city and some would just consider it a large town. And I say that as a Corkonian!

Given the relatively small size of Cork and the short distances of the commuter lines, BEMU's will work very well there.

Germany has recently placed a €600 million order for BEMU's to replace DMU operated lines to smaller cities just like this.

Can you produce an example? I can't think of one, granted I've not traveled extensively in Eastern Europe. Wiki mentions none, bar Ireland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_unit#Europe

Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

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