Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118182175#Comment_118182175

What work though? Pre planning?

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118182992#Comment_118182992

No. Work on the ground starting with resignalling and double tracking. Reference to electrification also but not sure how much for that is available under Phase 1.

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118184063#Comment_118184063

It won't be 2022 for double tracking to Midleton unless ground investigation work is being counted.

The programme is unachievable for works to start, but funding is tied to EU's covid recovery fund, so the programme looks like it was based on meeting EU requirements for stage gate payments/approvals.

cgcsb

No railway order at the moment and there's lots of bridges that have to be lifted or rebuilt to accommodate electrification and double tracking. Perhaps some signalling but that'll be the extent of it

hans aus dtschl

Yeah I can't see a double track to Midleton for at least 5 years. I don't think the bridges can take the double-track and there's a good few of them.

We're talking very old stonework bridges too, it's not going to be an easy job even if planning approval is already in place. Which it's not.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197410#Comment_118197410

Wasnt the midleton line double track before it was modernized ?

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197717#Comment_118197717

No it wasn’t.

GavRedKing

The fact the money is tied to the EUs recovery fund, will probably, excuse the pun, fast track it as much as possible.

I'd be more interested to see what they're going to do with the station works inside Cork to potentially have trains go from platforms 4&5 straight from Midelton to Mallow as part of the commuter run and what that would mean for InterCity services, as there was talks off having a new intercity platform down the of the existing yard which would link up with Penrose Dock and the proposed light rail.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197882#Comment_118197882

No. it wasn't double track, but many single-track were built with double-track overbridges, which may well be the case with Midleton. Those Victorians were ambitious and forward-looking.

Itssoeasy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198926#Comment_118198926

Maybe but having traveled on the line since it reopened no bridges spring to mind as being double track ready.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198926#Comment_118198926

Some of the railway bridges heading out of Dublin were built to accommodate quad track. The level of foresight in the 1800s/early 1900s is only something we can dream of now. (Midleton line open 12 years before double tracking needed)

GavRedKing

The biggest thing IMO is any old bridges, across the network, won't handle the electrification, lots of infrastructure issues fitting over heads, not just the Midelton line.

Pete_Cavan

Looking at the Midleton line on Google Maps, I was actually surprised by how few bridges there are, was expecting more. Width only seems an issue on maybe 5 of them, height for overhead cables may be an issue on others too. Looks like there are a few places where one new bridge could be built to replace two existing bridges.

The scope of works to electrify the Maynooth or Kildare lines as part of DART+ seems much bigger. Had assumed the lines around Dublin would have needed less wotks for such an upgrade but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'd expect works in Cork to move relatively quickly.

cgcsb

No doubt DART+ is a mega project consisting of multiple small jobs that should have been done incrementally over the 20th century. I would think there's a fair bit of work in Cork also.

cgcsb

Quick glance at Google maps shows 16 Road Bridges over the Cork to Cobh line. If half them are big enough to allow overhead lines (a generous assumption given the age of most bridge structures) that's still 8 bridge rebuilds or track lowering. Maynooth line DART, a mega project in its self, has about 6 such problematic bridges afaik. So yes Cork's DART (CART???) is definitely a huge job.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118201094#Comment_118201094

Let's not try to inflate fairly minor upgrade works in both Dublin and Cork with some sort of mega project, because neither come close on all accounts.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118201575#Comment_118201575

I was talking specifically about the Midleton line (as stated in my post) which was the topic of conversation. Like I said, I wouldn’t expect every bridge to be replaced, I'd expect at least one case of one new bridge replacing two existing (eg. The two west of Carrigtwohill Community College). Obviously there are places where the existing single track has to be doubled on the Midleton line, in addition to electrification. This will require widening trackbed, moving existing and laying new track, drainage, earthworks, ducting, bases for cabling supports, etc. When doing all this, they may also lower the track bed to get under an existing bridge, if it is wide enough (eg. east of Carrigtwohill United AFC).

The Cobh line is probably more complex. It may require a prolonged closure east of Rushbrooke to lower the track under the bridges on approach to Cobh. There are two bridges to Marino Point but I'm sure they'll be replaced by just one.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202681#Comment_118202681

In an Irish context this is massive. If you annualised it, there has been close to €0 invested in railways in Ireland since independence.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203154#Comment_118203154

What you're describing, such as one new bridge replacing two existing, is actually large enough. For local context, there are significant plans in that area. The whole area is zoned for development in the next 7 years. Short of diverting the rail line to a new immediately parallel one, it will not be easy. They're building a Kildare Village style surface mall there and large volumes of houses and industrial estates. What you can see on Google Maps is not an accurate reflection of what's currently in place. You'd end up needing to do a significant enough roads project.

What could be done is routing one of the two tracks slightly apart from the other, allowing you to keep the existing bridge structures and put in two new adjacent bridge structures immediately north of the existing. But I don't see this being done in two years. I'm not saying it's impossible whatsoever, just that it's a reasonably large volume of work and will take a few years.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205916#Comment_118205916

According to the National Planning Application Database map, there have been no planning applications on the land between the two bridges west of Carrigtwohill Community College, which is the logical place for a new bridge. There is also a filled in underpass west of Carrigtwohill station, this is also shown on LAP map and planning applications in the area have new roads connecting to it, see article here;

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20269504.html

East of Carrigtwohill, roads will be rebuilt linking to the new interchange as part of the N25 Carrigtohill to Midleton project. You'd expect that the road towards the rail line will be at a level to allow a new bridge extend over the rail line.

I'm not saying its a small project, but it wont be replacing every existing bridge either.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118208044#Comment_118208044

The County Council intend to make that whole area their next phase of "city outside the city" and are fighting hard to get it done. They've just re-zoned the whole area a few weeks ago. The link to the LAP is here: https://corkcoco.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=636e600103264fd4b1ba0ff1a73966e1

CT-I-02 has all ground works complete. CT-I-01 has a Part 8 recently completed and approved for an East-West cycleway here: https://www.corkcoco.ie/en/planning/traffic-transport/statutory-processes (Bury's Bridge, Kilcoolishal to Carrigtwohill via Glounthaune. See sheet 11.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% in favour of what you're describing, and I again am absolutely not saying it won't happen, but unfortunately what looks like agri land on the map already has some plans.

Now, they might simply cast aside all plans too though.

They did exactly that recently, by approving a surface mall for cars on CT-B-02, CT-B-04, CT-B-09 outside of the previous LAP. Council went all the way to the court to fight the Planning Regulator to get it done. So a Kildare Village style sprawl mall is intended right at the base of the tie-in to your new conceptual bridge. The planning for this will likely be lodged by someone on behalf of Rioja Properties soon. That will significantly affect the road network in the area too, I'd imagine.

As an aside, your linked video is from CT-R-01 and it's currently being developed. Foundations and kerbing for Link Roads are in place now but no blacktop. It's quite obvious from the LAP what the underpass in the video was intended for (a "sweetner" deal, to encourage a housing developer to break ground).

Sorry for all the tangents. Just saying that I don't think those two bridges, nor the next one, or the one at Carrigtohill Train Station will happen in two years. They're the old stonework bridges that would need doing. I'd say 5 years would be possible maybe. But I cannot see double tracking to Midleton in 2022. Absolutely no way, no how. They might break ground on it and start planning, maybe.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118208462#Comment_118208462

I dont know what you think I am say, I'm only saying that the project will be designed to minimise the number of bridge replacements. It is clear that several bridges are not high and/or wide enough so that will have to be addressed as part of the project. I'm sure they'll take an overall view rather than simply replacing each and every bridge. I certainly didn't mention anything about 2022.

New development in the area is obviously going to need new roads to serve it which can be designed around bridge locations. The cycle scheme seems to propose a new ped/cyclist bridge over the rail line. I'm sure CCC will coordinate with Irish Rail on building any new bridges, if IR need a new bridge anyway it could be wide enough for peds/cyclists also.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209583#Comment_118209583

Yep that's all reasonable, it was Marno above were saying the spend will be in 2022 for on-the-ground work on double tracking and a few of us reckoned that's optimistic, is all.

I'll be absolutely delighted if the area gets new infrastructure to be honest.

bk

Would it not make sense to use hybrid trains? Trains with batteries that can run on battery alone while running under the bridges without over head cables and then recharge the batteries when back on overhead power?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210446#Comment_118210446

Height isn't the only issue, width in places too.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118184063#Comment_118184063

Can any of the double-tracking and/or re-signalling be done in-house by IE?

I presume electrification can't be done in-house.

L1011

If you mean to try avoid a tender, no. They already use contractors for various bits of conventional work albeit they do have their own staff, kit etc also; but something this big will be tendered out.

They do have staff that are able to work on electrification kit, or else they wouldn't have been able to run an electrified setup for the guts of 40 years; but they wouldn't have the in-house resources to do new electrification - at least not while maintaining maintenance elsewhere.

Pablo Escobar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198625#Comment_118198625

The images that I've seen show an additional 'Platform 6' on the city side of the terminal. It doesn't totally solve the problem, but it definitely alleviates it.

hans aus dtschl

Yeah I saw the same, a platform at the existing passing loop, with train on one side and tram on the other.

As I understand it the problem was that the Dublin trains would sit on the platform inside the main building, blocking the place up and not allowing through trains. This would alleviate that a bit. Would be great to see some development of Kent to be honest.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249436#Comment_118249436

The lowest effort change to the station that does nothing for any future expansion of rail for the region - typical Irish approach to infrastructure.