President condemns brutal old IRA execution of elderly woman

guy2231 · 28-05-2021 11:47am #1

President Michael D Higgins has said the shooting of an elderly woman during the War of Independence by the IRA was an act of “exceptional cruelty”.
Mary Lindsay (60) and her chauffeur James Clarke (50) were executed by the IRA in March 1921 and buried in an unmarked grave. Their bodies were never recovered.
Mrs Lindsay’s crime in the eyes of the local IRA was informing on a planned IRA ambush at Godfrey’s Cross, between the villages of Coachford and Drips.

When is Leo Varadkar going to stand up in the Dail and publicly condemn the IRA? We have brushed this thuggery and brutality under the carpet for long enough now.

We have had enough glorification of these sectarian butchers and child murderers it's about time Varadkar stood up in the Dail and publicly condemned the IRA.

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have blood on their hands, the blood of innocent children, old women and countless innocent protestant civilians.

People have this romantic fanciful view of the Old IRA because all their bad deeds have been swept under the carpet and no one ever hears about them.

The old IRA only managed to kill 250 British soldiers during the war of independence of 1919-1921, the Provisional IRA managed to kill more than that amount just in 6 counties of Ireland from 72-74, the old IRA were not these marvel superheroes that could do no wrong like FF\FG would have you believe.

Link to story: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/president-condemns-ira-war-of-independence-execution-1.4577356?mode=amp

paulaa · 28-05-2021 12:03pm

guy2231 wrote: »

President Michael D Higgins has said the shooting of an elderly woman during the War of Independence by the IRA was an act of “exceptional cruelty”.
Mary Lindsay (60) and her chauffeur James Clarke (50) were executed by the IRA in March 1921 and buried in an unmarked grave. Their bodies were never recovered.
Mrs Lindsay’s crime in the eyes of the local IRA was informing on a planned IRA ambush at Godfrey’s Cross, between the villages of Coachford and Drips.

When is Leo Varadkar going to stand up in the Dail and publicly condemn the IRA? We have brushed this thuggery and brutality under the carpet for long enough now.

We have had enough glorification of these sectarian butchers and child murderers it's about time Varadkar stood up in the Dail and publicly condemned the IRA.

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have blood on their hands, the blood of innocent children, old women and countless innocent protestant civilians.

Michaél Martin is the Taoiseach. He should be the one to condemn the savagery that was committed

endacl · 28-05-2021 12:05pm

paulaa wrote: »

Michaél Martin is the Taoiseach. He should be the one to condemn the savagery that was committed

Míchael's a bit bland. Leo's easier to shout about.

paulaa · 28-05-2021 12:09pm

endacl wrote: »

Míchael's a bit bland. Leo's easier to shout about.

He may be bland but it's his job

Hangdogroad · 28-05-2021 12:10pm

guy2231 wrote: »

President Michael D Higgins has said the shooting of an elderly woman during the War of Independence by the IRA was an act of “exceptional cruelty”.
Mary Lindsay (60) and her chauffeur James Clarke (50) were executed by the IRA in March 1921 and buried in an unmarked grave. Their bodies were never recovered.
Mrs Lindsay’s crime in the eyes of the local IRA was informing on a planned IRA ambush at Godfrey’s Cross, between the villages of Coachford and Drips.

When is Leo Varadkar going to stand up in the Dail and publicly condemn the IRA? We have brushed this thuggery and brutality under the carpet for long enough now.

We have had enough glorification of these sectarian butchers and child murderers it's about time Varadkar stood up in the Dail and publicly condemned the IRA.

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have blood on their hands, the blood of innocent children, old women and countless innocent protestant civilians.

FF and FG didnt exist in 1921. How do they have the blood of this woman on their hands?

kildare lad · 28-05-2021 12:15pm

guy2231 wrote: »

President Michael D Higgins has said the shooting of an elderly woman during the War of Independence by the IRA was an act of “exceptional cruelty”.
Mary Lindsay (60) and her chauffeur James Clarke (50) were executed by the IRA in March 1921 and buried in an unmarked grave. Their bodies were never recovered.
Mrs Lindsay’s crime in the eyes of the local IRA was informing on a planned IRA ambush at Godfrey’s Cross, between the villages of Coachford and Drips.

When is Leo Varadkar going to stand up in the Dail and publicly condemn the IRA? We have brushed this thuggery and brutality under the carpet for long enough now.

We have had enough glorification of these sectarian butchers and child murderers it's about time Varadkar stood up in the Dail and publicly condemned the IRA.

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have blood on their hands, the blood of innocent children, old women and countless innocent protestant civilians.

Who cares, good enough for them if they were Informers . If it wasn't for these "butchers" we'd still be under British rule.

guy2231 · 28-05-2021 12:19pm

Hangdogroad wrote: »

FF and FG didnt exist in 1921. How do they have the blood of this woman on their hands?

Do I really have to answer this?

guy2231 · 28-05-2021 12:20pm

kildare lad wrote: »

Who cares, good enough for them if they were Informers . If it wasn't for these "butchers" we'd still be under British rule.

Their only crime was reporting to the police of criminal activity being commited in their area.

Pawwed Rig · 28-05-2021 12:22pm

guy2231 wrote: »

Do I really have to answer this?

It was 100 years ago. No one alive today has anything to be sorry about.

Terrible things happened in the past shocker.

Munsterlad102 · 28-05-2021 12:27pm

guy2231 wrote: »

President Michael D Higgins has said the shooting of an elderly woman during the War of Independence by the IRA was an act of “exceptional cruelty”.
Mary Lindsay (60) and her chauffeur James Clarke (50) were executed by the IRA in March 1921 and buried in an unmarked grave. Their bodies were never recovered.
Mrs Lindsay’s crime in the eyes of the local IRA was informing on a planned IRA ambush at Godfrey’s Cross, between the villages of Coachford and Drips.

When is Leo Varadkar going to stand up in the Dail and publicly condemn the IRA? We have brushed this thuggery and brutality under the carpet for long enough now.

We have had enough glorification of these sectarian butchers and child murderers it's about time Varadkar stood up in the Dail and publicly condemned the IRA.

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have blood on their hands, the blood of innocent children, old women and countless innocent protestant civilians.

Oh shut up. It was a war that was fought 100 years ago, your whining and virtue signaling isn't going to solve anything. Those two people are dead and gone and you're not going to bring them back. Micheál Martin is the Taoiseach, not Varadkar so go and get your facts straight. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael didn't exist back then, so how can they have blood on their hands? The very nature of war is that people have to die, how do you expect one army to deal with collaborators? Seriously? You have those men to thank for our freedom, Irish freedom but then again with your lack of knowledge you're probably not even Irish, in which case, why do you care?

guy2231 · 28-05-2021 12:31pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Oh shut up. It was a war that was fought 100 years ago, your whining and virtue signaling isn't going to solve anything. Those two people are dead and gone and you're not going to bring them back. Micheál Martin is the Taoiseach, not Varadkar so go and get your facts straight. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael didn't exist back then, so how can they have blood on their hands? The very nature of war is that people have to die, how do you expect one army to deal with collaborators? Seriously? You have those men to thank for our freedom, Irish freedom but then again with your lack of knowledge you're probably not even Irish, in which case, why do you care?

Michael Martin or Varadkar, it does not matter which one, they are both heads of the parties who came from this IRA gang they have had many serving sectarian butchers in their party like Frank Aiken who was Minister for Finance in the Republic of Ireland despite ordering the Altnaveigh massacre of six innocent protestant civilians for no reason apart from their religion.

These are the kind of thugs who created these parties, when will we ever get justice for all the disappeared?

28-05-2021 12:32pm

My direct ancestors were possibly involved in this, both sides of my family served in the Volunteers in that area.

Should I feel guilty? I don't feel guilty.

guy2231 · 28-05-2021 12:34pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My direct ancestors were possibly involved in this, both sides of my family served in the Volunteers in that area.

Should I feel guilty? I don't feel guilty.

I don't expect you to feel guilty I expect you to feel shame.

28-05-2021 12:35pm

That moment when you realise your thread isn't going quite how you'd hoped.

Allinall · 28-05-2021 12:35pm

guy2231 wrote: »

Michael Martin or Varadkar, it does not matter which one, they are both heads of the parties who came from this IRA gang they have had many serving sectarian butchers in their party like Frank Aiken who was Minister for Finance in the Republic of Ireland despite ordering the Altnaveigh massacre of six innocent protestant civilians for no reason apart from their religion.

These are the kind of thugs who created these parties.

OP. You called for Varadkar to come out and condemn the actions of the old IRA.

Can I ask what difference this would make to you, me or anyone else?

28-05-2021 12:37pm

guy2231 wrote: »

I don't expect you to feel guilty I expect you to feel shame.

I don't. I feel proud of them. I would have been honoured to achieve what they did.

guy2231 · 28-05-2021 12:38pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't. I feel proud of them. I would have been honoured to achieve what they did.

Well then I'm sure there are plently of elderly women in your area if you would like to follow in their footsteps, plenty of innocent protestants around up north as well.

droidman123 · 28-05-2021 12:39pm

And no other army in the world shot informers

Tchaikovsky · 28-05-2021 12:40pm

paulaa wrote: »

Michaél Martin is the Taoiseach. He should be the one to condemn the savagery that was committed

He might be thinking of, perhaps, in the next few weeks, maybe making a decision on whether to condemn it.

guy2231 · 28-05-2021 12:41pm

droidman123 wrote: »

And no other army in the world shot informers

She was not an informer, she was an elderly woman doing her national duty of reporting crime to the police.

biko · 28-05-2021 12:42pm

Not sure what this posturing is good for.
She did inform on the IRA, what did she expect to happen?

droidman123 · 28-05-2021 12:43pm

biko wrote: »

Not sure what this posturing is good for.
She did inform on the IRA, what did she expect to happen?

What was the crime being committed?
That was meant for the op

28-05-2021 12:43pm

guy2231 wrote: »

Well then I'm sure there are plently of elderly women in your area if you would like to follow in their footsteps, plenty of innocent protestants around up north as well.

Why would I do that? We're not at war.

corner of hells · 28-05-2021 12:45pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My direct ancestors were possibly involved in this, both sides of my family served in the Volunteers in that area.

Should I feel guilty? I don't feel guilty.

If you go back a little further, you'll probably find your family were leprechauns and theres a pot of gold somewhere.

Pogue eile · 28-05-2021 12:46pm

Fairly poor attempt OP, must try harder.

Munsterlad102 · 28-05-2021 12:47pm

guy2231 wrote: »

Michael Martin or Varadkar, it does not matter which one, they are both heads of the parties who came from this IRA gang they have had many serving sectarian butchers in their party like Frank Aiken who was Minister for Finance in the Republic of Ireland despite ordering the Altnaveigh massacre of six innocent protestant civilians for no reason apart from their religion.

These are the kind of thugs who created these parties, when will we ever get justice for all the disappeared?

It does matter which one, and you clearly haven't a clue what you're talking about. Tell me, if you're so concerned about deaths in a war 100 years ago, then why aren't you condemning the actions of Unionists? Or even better, why aren't you condemning Maggie Thatcher for arming Unionist death squads during the Troubles? It's almost as if you have a bias against Irish Nationalists.
You still refuse to answer me, what do you expect the men to have done when they found out about collaboraters giving away their positions etc? Do us all a favour, shut up about things you know nothing about and go back to whatever Unionist board you came from.

28-05-2021 12:48pm

corner of hells wrote: »

If you go back a little further, you'll probably find your family were leprechauns and theres a pot of gold somewhere.

I don't care whether you believe me or not.

Munsterlad102 · 28-05-2021 12:48pm

guy2231 wrote: »

She was not an informer, she was an elderly woman doing her national duty of reporting crime to the police.

That's literally the same as informing.

namloc1980 · 28-05-2021 12:50pm

Surely the OP is on the wind up. Nobody can be that clueless about the War of Independence.......can they?

kildare lad · 28-05-2021 12:50pm

guy2231 wrote: »

Their only crime was reporting to the police of criminal activity being commited in their area.

The only criminal activity been committed in the area was by the brits ... I think you're trolling anyway

droidman123 · 28-05-2021 12:50pm

paulaa wrote: »

Michaél Martin is the Taoiseach. He should be the one to condemn the savagery that was committed

If indeed that micheal martin does condem what happened well boris johnson better bring a sleeping bag with him to westminster, because it would take him a long time to appologise for the savagery,as you put it,that the british committed in their past.

Normal One · 28-05-2021 12:50pm

Snitches get stitches

kildare lad · 28-05-2021 12:52pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Surely the OP is on the wind up. Nobody can be that clueless about the War of Independence.......can they?

You'd never know , sure didn't fine Gael wanna have a commeneration for the occupying British forces two years ago

Jimbob1977 · 28-05-2021 12:54pm

This wasn't the Provisional IRA of The Troubles.

This was the Old IRA..... of which many of our grandfathers were proud members.

The founders of the State were Old IRA.

Dreadful things happen in every war - perpetrated by both sides. Harsh sentences, cruel executions.

In some people's eyes, the lady was a traitor. In other people's eyes, she was performing her civic duty.

guy2231 · 28-05-2021 1:01pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

It does matter which one, and you clearly haven't a clue what you're talking about. Tell me, if you're so concerned about deaths in a war 100 years ago, then why aren't you condemning the actions of Unionists? Or even better, why aren't you condemning Maggie Thatcher for arming Unionist death squads during the Troubles? It's almost as if you have a bias against Irish Nationalists.
You still refuse to answer me, what do you expect the men to have done when they found out about collaboraters giving away their positions etc? Do us all a favour, shut up about things you know nothing about and go back to whatever Unionist board you came from.

Do you think the same thing about Jean Mcconville? Shot dead by the provisional IRA in 1971 for the exact same reason?

People have this romantic fanciful view of the Old IRA because all their bad deeds have been swept under the carpet and no one ever hears about them.

The old IRA only managed to kill 250 British soldiers, the Provisional IRA managed to kill more than that amount just in the north of Ireland from 72-74, the old IRA were not these marvel superheroes that could do no wrong like FF\FG would have you believe.

Munsterlad102 · 28-05-2021 1:08pm

guy2231 wrote: »

Do you think the same thing about Jean Mcconville? Shot dead by the provisional IRA in 1971 for the exact same reason?

People have this romantic fanciful view of the Old IRA because all their bad deeds have been swept under the carpet and no one ever hears about them.

The old IRA only managed to kill 250 British soldiers, the Provisional IRA managed to kill more than that amount just in the north of Ireland from 72-74, the old IRA were not these marvel superheroes that could do no wrong like FF\FG would have you believe.

Are you going to answer me or not? What do you expect them to have done? How about we take an example from your precious British army, they could have pitch capped them. Or how about from the RUC, where they gave Michael Stone free reign to kill during the Miltown Cemetery attack. It's almost as if you're being very selective in who you condemn.

Why do FF and FG have to apologize for the actions of an army 100 years ago and the actions of an army that didn't have any connections to them? How about you stop being a hypocrite and apologize here and now for the actions of all things British.

Pawwed Rig · 28-05-2021 1:12pm

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

He might be thinking of, perhaps, in the next few weeks, maybe making a decision on whether to condemn it.

He has a sub committee looking into it I hear

corner of hells · 28-05-2021 1:17pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't care whether you believe me or not.

I do believe you.

WrenBoy · 28-05-2021 1:24pm

Better luck next time OP, might have gone done better on boards.co.uk.

0lddog · 28-05-2021 1:25pm

endacl wrote: »

Míchael's a bit bland. ...

You have a gift for understatement :P

Baggly · 28-05-2021 1:39pm

Op send me a PM substantiating this story and lets have a chat about it. In the meantime, its closed.

Baggly · 28-05-2021 1:47pm

Thread reopened. Please discuss this topic in good faith and civilly or cards and/or bans will follow.

28-05-2021 1:56pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Surely the OP is on the wind up. Nobody can be that clueless about the War of Independence.......can they?

Any time there are findings on British army and loyalist murders in the north the site has a few people trying to make comparisons like this. Clueless no, but transparent, yes very much so.

28-05-2021 2:07pm

Some facts:

Mary Lindsay and her chauffeur were convicted by the IRA as being spies/traitors. Their activities had led to the arrest of a number of IRA volunteers.

6 IRA men were under arrest and sentenced to death. The IRA said that if these prisoners were executed, they would in turn execute the two prisoners they held. The British subsequently executed these men, and the IRA followed through on their threat.

There is no doubt that she was an informer, the British paid tribute to her as such, and her actions led to not only her own and her chauffeurs deaths, but that of the IRA men who were captured because of what she did.

Lt. Col. F.H. Dorling, DSO, Officer Commanding 1 Battalion, Manchester Regiment, explaining how fast she delivered the information to the Crown forces:

‘Her only object in doing so was to prevent Crown Forces from running into the ambush: “I came at once in the hope of saving some poor fellows’ lives …” The courage required was of a very high order and Mrs Lindsay knew the risk she ran … Mrs Lindsay showed devotion to duty of a very high standard and we have every reason therefore to pay respect to the memory of a very devoted and self-sacrificing lady more especially as she gave information which undoubtedly saved some of our own regiment and the local police force from running into this very ambush.’

That said, the burying of them in unmarked graves was not nice. Nor, of course, was the practice of the British in disposing and destroying of the remains of Irish heroes with quicklime.

WrenBoy · 28-05-2021 2:11pm

" ...when civilians are seen approaching shout: 'Hands up!' Should the order be not obeyed, shoot, and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching carry their hands in their pockets or are in any way suspicious looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped and you are bound to get the right persons sometimes. The more you shoot the better I will like you; and I assure you that no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man and I will guarantee that your names will not be given at the inquest."

Lieutenant-Colonel Gerald Bryce Ferguson Smyth.

Thank God for the Old IRA.

listermint · 28-05-2021 2:14pm

Has Poots signed up an account today. A continuation of his media blitz today stoking up fires.

Arggghh so angers

28-05-2021 2:25pm

guy2231 wrote: »

Do you think the same thing about Jean Mcconville? Shot dead by the provisional IRA in 1971 for the exact same reason?

People have this romantic fanciful view of the Old IRA because all their bad deeds have been swept under the carpet and no one ever hears about them.

The old IRA only managed to kill 250 British soldiers, the Provisional IRA managed to kill more than that amount just in the north of Ireland from 72-74, the old IRA were not these marvel superheroes that could do no wrong like FF\FG would have you believe.

For the sake of discussion, let us take it as granted that the PIRA and old IRA are equivalent, and acted with the same legitimacy. Even if you draw an equivalence between the PIRA and the old IRA the comparison of the situation with Lindsay and McConville does not work, because the facts are totally different.

Firstly, the claim that Jean McConville was an informer is vigorously disputed by her family (Her son was in jail at the time as he was a member of the IRA) and also by the British. There is no such dispute or doubt when it comes to Mary Lindsay.

Secondly, the actions of Mary Lindsay led to the capture of 5 IRA men who, along with a sixth, were sentenced to death by the British. In retaliation, and to try and prevent the executions, the IRA captured Lindsay and her driver and threatened to execute her if the men, who were captured because of her actions, were executed. She was held a number of weeks and was executed after the British executed the 6 IRA men. The circumstances surrounding Jean McConville are totally different. She was not captured and held as a sort of hostage to try and save the lives of the men who she had caused to be captured. As I said, it is much disputed that she was an informer at all, and even those who make that claim do not say that her actions led to the capture or deaths of anyone.

The only equivalence between these two unfortunate women and their situation is their use as a tool by anti-Irish, colonial-cringe infected, forlock-tugging soup-taking Irishmen or by unionists and loyalists (don't agree with their position but at least it is somewhat respectable considering their background. As disagreeable as it is, at least it is not cringe-worthy like the west-Bs are), who could not give a damn about these women. They just want to bash the Irish, and by extension Irish nationalism, republicanism, and sure if you can get at Mary-Lou McDonald as well somehow, that's a job well done.

whisky_galore · 28-05-2021 2:32pm

Exceptional cruelty.

War is cruel, there I was thinking it was a bit of a laugh.

blanch152 · 28-05-2021 3:20pm

guy2231 wrote: »

Do you think the same thing about Jean Mcconville? Shot dead by the provisional IRA in 1971 for the exact same reason?

People have this romantic fanciful view of the Old IRA because all their bad deeds have been swept under the carpet and no one ever hears about them.

The old IRA only managed to kill 250 British soldiers, the Provisional IRA managed to kill more than that amount just in the north of Ireland from 72-74, the old IRA were not these marvel superheroes that could do no wrong like FF\FG would have you believe.

Cultural context is important in considering historical events and comparing them to more recent events.

Brian Boru raped and pillaged, yet he is held in even higher esteem by some.

monseiur · 28-05-2021 3:27pm

Once upon a time there was an evil empire whose ill gotten territories were so vast that at least one part was always in daylight - hence the phrase 'the empire on which the sun never sets'
Ireland was a small part of this empire.
It took the bravery, courage and self sacrifice of unselfish men and women over centuries to bring this evil empire to it's knees. So many gave their life for freedom, something so many people, sadly, take for granted today.
Of course this evil empire could not exist without local collaborators, spy networks etc. etc. and they, like the empire they so blindly served came to a bad end.
Unfortunately there is, to this day, a small but vocal group who decry the loss of this empire and who regard those who ensured it's demise as terrorists.
To the OP I say 'There's none so blind as those who do no wish to see'

guy2231 · 28-05-2021 3:56pm

monseiur wrote: »

Once upon a time there was an evil empire whose ill gotten territories were so vast that at least one part was always in daylight - hence the phrase 'the empire on which the sun never sets'
Ireland was a small part of this empire.
It took the bravery, courage and self sacrifice of unselfish men and women over centuries to bring this evil empire to it's knees. So many gave their life for freedom, something so many people, sadly, take for granted today.
Of course this evil empire could not exist without local collaborators, spy networks etc. etc. and they, like the empire they so blindly served came to a bad end.
Unfortunately there is, to this day, a small but vocal group who decry the loss of this empire and who regard those who ensured it's demise as terrorists.
To the OP I say 'There's none so blind as those who do no wish to see'

So you are justifying the murders of elderly women for reporting crime?

This justifies the murders of innocent protestants, children and elderly women by the IRA?

President condemns brutal old IRA execution of elderly woman

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