President condemns brutal old IRA execution of elderly woman

riffmongous

guy2231 wrote: »

She was not an informer, she was an elderly woman doing her national duty of reporting crime to the police.

Her national duty? The people had voted, independence had been declared, she was not fulfilling her national duty. Her colonial/imperial duty maybe. Shooting anyone is wrong, but a lot of the responsibility for that lies on the British for putting everyone in that situation

guy2231

riffmongous wrote: »

Her national duty? The people had voted, independence had been declared, she was not fulfilling her national duty. Her colonial/imperial duty maybe. Shooting anyone is wrong, but a lot of the responsibility for that lies on the British for putting everyone in that situation

Absolute rubbish hypocrisy on here, the same things people are saying to defend the old IRA are the exact same things that could be used to defend the provisonal IRA, the only difference is that atrocious murders and sectarian massacres by the old IRA aren't shoved down our throats and are brushed under the carpet with romantic fanciful nonsense.

donspeekinglesh

60 years old is elderly now? ****, old age is a lot closer than i thought...

Feisar

monseiur wrote: »

Once upon a time there was an evil empire whose ill gotten territories were so vast that at least one part was always in daylight - hence the phrase 'the empire on which the sun never sets'
Ireland was a small part of this empire.
It took the bravery, courage and self sacrifice of unselfish men and women over centuries to bring this evil empire to it's knees. So many gave their life for freedom, something so many people, sadly, take for granted today.
Of course this evil empire could not exist without local collaborators, spy networks etc. etc. and they, like the empire they so blindly served came to a bad end.
Unfortunately there is, to this day, a small but vocal group who decry the loss of this empire and who regard those who ensured it's demise as terrorists.
To the OP I say 'There's none so blind as those who do no wish to see'

Can we wind back with the "on it's knees" narrative. What amounts to a few successful ambushes/skirmishes does not amount to "on it's knees".

Edit - I agree with everything else you are saying though.

Scoundrel

She informed and caused the deaths of volunteers she got what she deserved.

guy2231

guy2231 wrote: »

Their only crime was reporting to the police of criminal activity being commited in their area.

The British executed some of those captured criminals she had informed on, leading to their capture.

She herself was taken hostage so those captured would not be executed.

Brits shot them, leaving the IRA no choice.
The Brits are as culpable for her death as the IRA.

guy2231

Feisar wrote: »

Can we wind back with the "on it's knees" narrative. What amounts to a few successful ambushes/skirmishes does not amount to "on it's knees".

Edit - I agree with everything else you are saying though.

In an all Ireland campaign the old IRA only managed to kill 250 British soldiers during the war of independence over 3 years, the provos killed even more than that in a 6 county campaign during 72-74.

This is the kind of romantic fanciful nonsense I'm talking about "we had the Brits on their knees" what a load of rubbish.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Does anyone know what the drivers situation was?

Its fairly well established that the woman Mary Lindsey was complicit in the deaths of 6 IRA personnel.

A loyal British man would call that complicity an act of heroism while many on the other political side would call it enemy action in war time and treason to the Irish state.

I don't want to get into that debate. I'm curious about the driver. Did the driver inform on IRA actions or was he an innocent bystander.

guy2231

guy2231 wrote: »

In an all Ireland campaign the old IRA only managed to kill 250 British soldiers during the war of independence over 3 years, the provos killed even more than that in a 6 county campaign during 72-74.

This is the kind of romantic fanciful nonsense I'm talking about "we had the Brits on their knees" what a load of rubbish.

Have another look at the British crown forces' casualties there chief

CIARAN_BOYLE

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Does anyone know what the drivers situation was?

Its fairly well established that the woman Mary Lindsey was complicit in the deaths of 6 IRA personnel.

A loyal British man would call that complicity an act of heroism while many on the other political side would call it enemy action in war time and treason to the Irish state.

I don't want to get into that debate. I'm curious about the driver. Did the driver inform on IRA actions or was he an innocent bystander.

They were both taken hostage to prevent the execution of captured IRA.

He was arguably innocent in the whole thing.

Scoundrel

guy2231 wrote: »

Do you think the same thing about Jean Mcconville? Shot dead by the provisional IRA in 1971 for the exact same reason?

People have this romantic fanciful view of the Old IRA because all their bad deeds have been swept under the carpet and no one ever hears about them.

The old IRA only managed to kill 250 British soldiers, the Provisional IRA managed to kill more than that amount just in the north of Ireland from 72-74, the old IRA were not these marvel superheroes that could do no wrong like FF\FG would have you believe.

Absolutely the IRA was as justified in shooting Lindsay in the 20s as they were shooting Mcconville in the 70s both were informers despite the nonsense made up story of Jean comforting a british soldier as being the reason that never happened ultimately both knew the penalty for what they had done.

Danny Morrison wrote a short book the good old ira which makes the point very well about their being no moral difference between tough actions carried out by so called old IRA and PIRA the myth of a saintly old IRA is a free state invention used to demonize IRA after 1921. The IRA of 1919-1921 disappeared far more than PIRA.

Shebean

Hangdogroad wrote: »

FF and FG didnt exist in 1921. How do they have the blood of this woman on their hands?

They idolise the terrorist Michael Collins for one.


I don't see the need for an apology. Informing often leads to the deaths of others. Awful things happen in conflict.


If they can look to celebrate, (that's what the proposed event was regardless of the label) the IRC and the black and tans but condemn the IRA up north, I wouldn't hold your breath on any equal condemnation.

tdf7187

The idea that informers would have been treated with kid gloves in a war situation is infantile delusion.

It seems that for some the point of the centenary is lacerating how dreadful everything associated with Irish nationalism is.

You don't see the Brits engaging in self-flagellation over the bombing of Dresden.

indioblack

monseiur wrote: »

- hence the phrase 'the empire on which the sun never sets'

A phrase previously used to describe the Spanish Empire.

LuckyLloyd

It was a war. An unfortunately dirty and callous war - forced upon us because the Brits refused to accept our Democratic will for independence. She contributed to the ultimate execution of 6 IRA volunteers after choosing to aid local British forces. As a consequence she made herself a target.

I would think it’s uncontroversial to suggest that in a war zone deciding to provide intelligence to one side or another leaves you open to suffering consequences up to an including death.

Anyway, the uniformity of the reaction in this thread informs you of what most people think.

guy2231

Hhh

goose2005

droidman123 wrote: »

And no other army in the world shot informers

I wonder are the French Resistance made to answer for every collaborator or informer or spy they shot, somehow I doubt it

goose2005

guy2231 wrote: »

In an all Ireland campaign the old IRA only managed to kill 250 British soldiers during the war of independence over 3 years, the provos killed even more than that in a 6 county campaign during 72-74.

This is the kind of romantic fanciful nonsense I'm talking about "we had the Brits on their knees" what a load of rubbish.

they also killed over 400 police, who were pretty much the same as soldiers at the time. Anyway, wars are not won and lost on bodycounts, ultimately their victory was in making British rule impossible and gaining the support of the people, simply killing X number of enemy soldiers doesn't mean you win

riffmongous

riffmongous wrote: »

Her national duty? The people had voted, independence had been declared, she was not fulfilling her national duty. Her colonial/imperial duty maybe. Shooting anyone is wrong, but a lot of the responsibility for that lies on the British for putting everyone in that situation

She was a British loyalist. Just because some Irish people had voted and declared Independence, didn't mean that all Irish people agreed and were willing to give up their own connections to the British Empire.

My fathers family is from the west of Ireland, and members of my family fought with the IRA.. however my mothers family is of English background, from near Carlow, and many of her family members fought on the British side of things.

The people had voted? hardly. The declaration of Independence wasn't some kind of referendum like nowadays, where everyone got to influence the outcome. Nobody asked my grandfathers whether they wanted independence. They were forced to decide which side to fight on, after the fact.

There is too much romantic nonsense when it comes to the War of Independence and the IRA. It wasn't as clean as many here want to pretend, nor was it universally welcomed.

Mrs Lindsay held true to her beliefs. I wouldn't consider her to be a traitor, since she was never a Republican, nor ever seemed to professed a desire for Independence.

"Educated and well-to-do through her marriage, she was a member of the Presbyterian Church. Her observance of the principles of the Union with Great Britain gave her rigid loyalist views and contempt for the men of the IRA"

guy2231

[Deleted User] wrote: »

She was a British loyalist. Just because some Irish people had voted and declared Independence, didn't mean that all Irish people agreed and were willing to give up their own connections to the British Empire.

My fathers family is from the west of Ireland, and members of my family fought with the IRA.. however my mothers family is of English background, from near Carlow, and many of her family members fought on the British side of things.

The people had voted? hardly. The declaration of Independence wasn't some kind of referendum like nowadays, where everyone got to influence the outcome. Nobody asked my grandfathers whether they wanted independence. They were forced to decide which side to fight on, after the fact.

There is too much romantic nonsense when it comes to the War of Independence and the IRA. It wasn't as clean as many here want to pretend, nor was it universally welcomed.

Mrs Lindsay held true to her beliefs. I wouldn't consider her to be a traitor, since she was never a Republican, nor ever seemed to professed a desire for Independence.

"Educated and well-to-do through her marriage, she was a member of the Presbyterian Church. Her observance of the principles of the Union with Great Britain gave her rigid loyalist views and contempt for the men of the IRA"

Not to mention all the innocents the IRA brutally murdered which would have also been a reason to report crime on them.

whisky_galore

That's enough Shinner baiting for this thread.

Montage of Feck

guy2231 wrote: »

I don't expect you to feel guilty I expect you to feel shame.

Why should I? The only shame should be from the subsequent conservative CnaG (FG) and FF governments who betrayed the revolutionary ideals those men fought and died for.

ILoveYourVibes

I think the biggest failure of Martin as Taoiseach is that people still think Varadkar is in charge.

Donald Trump

Thread needs more Wolfe Tones

I get all my historical references from them.


It was either this or the rubberbandits

guy2231

Donald Trump wrote: »

Thread needs more Wolfe Tones

I get all my historical references from them.


It was either this or the rubberbandits

Terrorist sympathisers, they also suppoted the provisonal IRA but at least they are not hypocrites like most people condemning one and not the other because most people do not even realise the old IRA was behind countless sectarian murders and murders of innocents.

Despite what most people think the old IRA were not these marvel superheroes who could do no wrong the upper and middle classes for the most part hated them just like they hated the provisonal IRA.

Donald Trump

guy2231 wrote: »

Terrorist sympathisers, they also suppoted the provisonal IRA but at least they are not hypocrites like most people condemning one and not the other because most people do not even realise the old IRA was behind countless sectarian murders and murders of innocents.

Marty Whelan! He's in the 'Ra!
Colin Farrell! He's in the 'Ra!
George Lucas! He's in the 'Ra!
Tony Cascarino! He's in the 'Ra!
Mick Jagger! He's in the 'Ra!
Robert De Niro! He's in the 'Ra!
Quentin Tarantino! He's in the 'Ra!
Terry Phelan! He's in the 'Ra!
Dr. Dre! He's in the 'Ra!
Your man in the Da Vinci Code! He's in the 'Ra!
Winona Ryder! He's in the 'Ra!
Kofi Annan! He's in the 'Ra!
Michelle Pfeiffer! He's in the 'Ra!


Allegedly





(Before anyone gets offended. The lyrics of that song are a satire of armchair republicanism)

guy2231

Donald Trump wrote: »

Marty Whelan! He's in the 'Ra!
Colin Farrell! He's in the 'Ra!
George Lucas! He's in the 'Ra!
Tony Cascarino! He's in the 'Ra!
Mick Jagger! He's in the 'Ra!
Robert De Niro! He's in the 'Ra!
Quentin Tarantino! He's in the 'Ra!
Terry Phelan! He's in the 'Ra!
Dr. Dre! He's in the 'Ra!
Your man in the Da Vinci Code! He's in the 'Ra!
Winona Ryder! He's in the 'Ra!
Kofi Annan! He's in the 'Ra!
Michelle Pfeiffer! He's in the 'Ra!


Allegedly





(Before anyone gets offended. The lyrics of that song are a satire of armchair republicanism)

Very offensive to all the innocent victims of both the old and provisional IRA.

MadYaker

guy2231 wrote: »

Very offensive to all the innocent victims of both the old and provisional IRA.

You won't enjoy this at all so

Donald Trump

guy2231 wrote: »

Very offensive to all the innocent victims of both the old and provisional IRA.

I put the footnote in at the bottom as I anticipated some might not get the reference.



Poster above posted the video/song. It is actually a satire of armchair Republicans who don't have a clue about the history they talk about....................which is kinda what you were going on about.


Unreliable narrator.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

You won't enjoy this at all so

Jesus H Christ, that's brutal.
What is it, comedy? Satire?

o1s1n

guy2231 wrote: »

Terrorist sympathisers, they also suppoted the provisonal IRA but at least they are not hypocrites like most people condemning one and not the other because most people do not even realise the old IRA was behind countless sectarian murders and murders of innocents.

Despite what most people think the old IRA were not these marvel superheroes who could do no wrong the upper and middle classes for the most part hated them just like they hated the provisonal IRA.

It's hard not to read your posts in Ian Paisley voice.

Fully expecting a 'NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!' at any moment.

Galwayguy35

She was an informer passing on information to those who supported the British occupation of Ireland, she got what she deserved.

micosoft

guy2231 wrote: »

Do I really have to answer this?

Yes

breezy1985

Can anyone explain to me the motivation behind southern unionists. Even before internet forums I knew the odd few.

Are they just trying to be confrontational and edgy or is it something to do with the upsetting of the old class system that they are still bitter about ?

Galwayguy35

guy2231 wrote: »

Not to mention all the innocents the IRA brutally murdered which would have also been a reason to report crime on them.

What about the innocents watching a match who the Tans shot dead in Croke Park in 1920?

Galwayguy35

I always had a feeling Higgins was a little west Brit, guess this proves it.

guy2231

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

She was an informer passing on information to those who supported the British occupation of Ireland, she got what she deserved.

Just like Jean Mcconville got what she deserved for passing on information to the "occupying forces" according to the illegal territorial claim to the 6 counties by our state at the time?

Or do the vast majority of people actually agree with this behaviour and only bring up these atrocities to try and hurt Sinn Fein?

How do you justify the killing of innocent people?

guy2231

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

What about the innocents watching a match who the Tans shot dead in Croke Park in 1920?

Whataboutery again, anytime anyone brings up IRA atrocities there is always whataboutery.

Galwayguy35

guy2231 wrote: »

Just like Jean Mcconville got what she deserved for passing on information to the "occupying forces" according to the illegal territorial claim to the 6 counties by the our state at the time?

Or do the vast majority of people actually agree with this behaviour and only bring up these atrocities to try and hurt Sinn Fein?

How do you justify the killing of innocent people?

I don't know for sure if J McConville was an informer or not but this one was so yeah I have no propblem justifying it.

So now maybe you can answer my question you seem to have missed a few post up and give us your opinion on the Tans shooting innocent people dead in Croke Park.

Galwayguy35

guy2231 wrote: »

Whataboutery again, anytime anyone brings up IRA atrocities there is always whataboutery.

Ah ok so when the British commit cold blooded murder its whataboutery.

guy2231

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I don't know for sure if J McConville was an informer or not but this one was so yeah I have no propblem justifying it.

So now maybe you can answer my question you seem to have missed a few post up and give us your opinion on the Tans shooting innocent people dead in Croke Park.

All killing of innocent people is wrong, it was actually Irish police officers who commited these murders, that does not take away from all the good police officers and British soldiers who the vast majority of which served with honesty and dignity merely doing their job maintaining law and order.

Galwayguy35

guy2231 wrote: »

All killing of innocent people is wrong, it was actually Irish police officers who commited these murders, that does not take away from all the good police officers and British soldiers who the vast majority of which served with honesty and dignity merely doing their job maintaining law and order.

Seriously are you on a wind up or what?

The Tans which were soldiers who served in WW1 were cold blooded murderers and killed unarmed civilians who had nothing to do with the war.

I'm up for debating this but if you're going to just dismiss and ignore the many atrocites the British committed then whats the point.

JupiterKid

This all happened over a century ago, FFS.

It was a war and sadly in wars, people get killed and hurt. Informers to the authorities in guerilla wars are usually subject to harsh recriminations including torture and murder. Of course that doesn’t make it right but it’s been a consistent pattern in the history of human conflict and warfare.

My grandfather served in the old IRA in the War of Independence and I’m rather proud of that fact.
The woman who was executed by the IRA was a British loyalist who was an enemy of the Irish and the struggle for freedom and independence. The President has no place making an apology in this instance.

The OP in my opinion is a unionist/loyalist troll who is simply looking to stir up sh*t on the thread and attack everything and anything Irish, as per usual...

guy2231

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Seriously are you on a wind up or what?

The Tans which were soldiers who served in WW1 were cold blooded murderers and killed unarmed civilians who had nothing to do with the war.

I'm up for debating this but if you're going to just dismiss and ignore the many atrocites the British committed then whats the point.

And the IRA weren't cold blooded murderers who killed unarmed civilians sectarian attacks on protestants and disapperances of young protestant boys who had nothing to do witb the war the list goes on.

I acknowledge some individual soldiers took part in unjustified murders but as I said that does not take away from the vast majority of soldiers who acted with honour and dignity under a tough climate of terrorism.

guy2231

JupiterKid wrote: »

This all happened over a century ago, FFS.

It was a war and sadly in wars, people get killed and hurt. Informers to the authorities in guerilla wars are usually subject to harsh recriminations including torture and murder. Of course that doesn’t make it right but it’s been a consistent pattern in the history of human conflict and warfare.

My grandfather served in the old IRA in the War of Independence and I’m rather proud of that fact.
The woman who was executed by the IRA was a British loyalist who was an enemy of the Irish and the struggle for freedom and independence. The President has no place making an apology in this instance.

The OP in my opinion is a unionist/loyalist troll who is simply looking to stir up sh*t on the thread and attack everything and anything Irish, as per usual...

President Higgins done a great thing condemning this violence bringing us closer to finally realising the truth about these thugs like the IRA and the 1916 war criminals.

Although I do have to give props where props is due to parties like Fine Gael, during the 1916 commemoration and in particular the 1916 commemoration video for featuring decent people who have actually done a lot for this country such as Bob Geldof, David Cameron and the Queen who featured in the ‘Ireland 2016′ video – while keeping murderers like the signatories of the 1916 Proclamation out of the video completely, it was a real sign of progress taking the 100th anniversary of 1916 to reflect on how violence is wrong and how we have changed rather than taking the opportunity to glamorise violence.

Wise words from Bob Geldof at the time of the 1916 commemoration that the rising was nonsense and caused nothing but bloodshed on this island.

Munsterlad102

guy2231 wrote: »

1916 war criminals.

Now that's a completely baseless argument, the only war crimes that were committed during the Rising was the British executing civilians. Again you prove that you know little on this subject except for a few incidents. So I implore you to go and research this and all your arguments before making such ludicrous statements.

frosty123

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I always had a feeling Higgins was a little west Brit, guess this proves it.

We're all west brits when you think about it...supporting brit football clubs, reading brit newspapers, watching brit TV , shopping in brit shops.

1o059k7ewrqj3n

guy2231 wrote: »

Michael Martin or Varadkar, it does not matter which one, they are both heads of the parties who came from this IRA gang they have had many serving sectarian butchers in their party like Frank Aiken who was Minister for Finance in the Republic of Ireland despite ordering the Altnaveigh massacre of six innocent protestant civilians for no reason apart from their religion.

These are the kind of thugs who created these parties, when will we ever get justice for all the disappeared?

Is that you Joe Duffy?

Dyr

Lets be honest, If that superannuated spoofer we have above in the áras was around in 1920 he would have been hidden under his bed

A windbag of the first magnitude.

The J Stands for Jay

guy2231 wrote: »

She was not an informer, she was an elderly woman doing her national duty of reporting crime to the police.

She wasn't elderly, she was 60 years old.