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Belarus force down Ryanair plane

2

Comments

  • #52
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Had to laugh at our own mice that roared (Coveney and Martin) in chorus with that bigger roaring mouse (EU)

    A few sanctions and that'll be about it, back to business as usual.
    EuCO meeting told to leave their phones outside. Looks like serious intent to me.


  • #53
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,338 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    EuCO meeting told to leave their phones outside. Looks like serious intent to me.

    Unless there’s some concrete actions by the EU then being told to leave their phones outside means nothing.


  • #54
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,847 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    EuCO meeting told to leave their phones outside. Looks like serious intent to me.

    Wasn’t that standard during the brexit talks


  • #55
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,847 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Had to laugh at our own mice that roared (Coveney and Martin) in chorus with that bigger roaring mouse (EU)

    A few sanctions and that'll be about it, back to business as usual.

    Simon was fairly pathetic on morning ireland

    The Russians are having some laugh


  • #56
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,512 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    EuCO meeting told to leave their phones outside. Looks like serious intent to me.

    Pah.
    Cutting off the supply of French wine and Kerrygold.


  • #57
    political analyst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    If the EU lets this slide, next thing you will see planes going over EU territory being forcefully landed to extract any dissidents

    The Russian and Belarusian air forces wouldn't have the nerve to do that inside NATO airspace, i.e. the Baltic states, Poland.


  • #58
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,091 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    Pah.
    Cutting off the supply of French wine and Kerrygold.

    ##Mod Note##

    Up the standards please.

    Thank you


  • #59
    FGR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭FGR


    The sad thing is - sanctions are all well and good but the original problem hasn't been resolved. Belarus and Russia won't really care about the impact of said sanctions as they know that they still achieved what they desired i.e. got their hands on a dissident. What's to stop them from doing it again?

    I'm not proposing sending in special forces to retrieve the man but at the same time does Russia really care about the alternatives? They know that even if the EU threatened serious intervention that they'd simply switch off the oil and gaslines and that's us crippled.


  • #60
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    FGR wrote: »
    The sad thing is - sanctions are all well and good but the original problem hasn't been resolved. Belarus and Russia won't really care about the impact of said sanctions as they know that they still achieved what they desired i.e. got their hands on a dissident. What's to stop them from doing it again?

    I'm not proposing sending in special forces to retrieve the man but at the same time does Russia really care about the alternatives? They know that even if the EU threatened serious intervention that they'd simply switch off the oil and gaslines and that's us crippled.
    Targeted sanctions against named individuals hurt. Especially in a kleptocratic regime. All that lovely money salted away outside the country is suddenly out of reach. The flight sanctions will also hurt.


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  • #61
    political analyst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭political analyst


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57239521
    The journalist faces charges of organising mass unrest after covering the events of the 2020 presidential election from abroad. The offence carries a possible jail term of up to 15 years. However, Mr Protasevich tweeted a KGB list of terrorism suspects last year, adding that he had been placed on it alongside Islamic State jihadists.

    As far as I know, nobody in Belarus under Lukashenko's rule has been executed for a non-fatal offence.


  • #62
    paul71
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭paul71


    political analyst wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57239521



    As far as I know, nobody in Belarus under Lukashenko's rule has been executed for a non-fatal offence.

    Several have been "suicided".


  • #63
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    political analyst wrote: »
    More to the point, why did Protasevich take a seat on the flight in the first place?!

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57224452

    If in doubt, get out!

    He has put his girlfriend, as well as himself, in harm's way.

    Boarding a flight that goes through Belarusian airspace was his equivalent of walking into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

    Even if there hadn't been a bomb alert, he should have considered the possibility of being poisoned with a view to making him ill to provide a pretext for an emergency landing in Belarus, i.e. the footage of Navalny crying in pain after boarding an internal Russian flight.

    This is exactly it. The pretend notion that any county should not, and therefore will not, control what happens in their own airspace when they want to is laughable in it's childish naivety.

    "I've got my magic moral high ground to protect me, no country can stop ME when I travel through their country"


  • #64
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,345 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Targeted sanctions against named individuals hurt. Especially in a kleptocratic regime. All that lovely money salted away outside the country is suddenly out of reach. The flight sanctions will also hurt.

    It'll certainly make them think twice about the next time they try this stunt or similar.

    There is very little that can be effectively done when a country decides to act a certain way. Sanctions hurt North Kore and Iran for example, but they will carry on as they do because of national pride. I do think though that sanctions bring a result that they are limited so as not to invoke heavier penalties.


  • #65
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    The forcing down of Bolivian President Evo Morales's plane – denied airspace by France, Spain and Portugal, followed by his 14-hour confinement while Austrian officials demanded to "inspect" his aircraft for the "fugitive" Edward Snowden – was an act of air piracy and state terrorism. It was a metaphor for the gangsterism that now rules the world and the cowardice and hypocrisy of bystanders who dare not speak its name.
    To be fair, we (EU-NATO) have set the gold standard by detaining a Presidential plane, not a Ryanair flight.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/04/forcing-down-morales-plane-air-piracy


  • #66
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Tea drinker wrote: »
    To be fair, we (EU-NATO) have set the gold standard by detaining a Presidential plane, not a Ryanair flight.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/04/forcing-down-morales-plane-air-piracy

    False equivalence different circumstances different tactics different actions different everything. But you know this you've probably had this all pointed out to you on Twitter where you picked it up.


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  • #67
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I would assume that anyone who is conflating pre-emptively and legally denying access to air space before an aircraft reaches it and criminally forcing a plane to land on your territory as they overfly it are doing so out of ignorance rather than malice.

    The Morales affair was unpleasant, a diplomatic mess and reflects poorly on all those involved. It is also not remotely comparable.


  • #68
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Mod Note

    I've deleted a bunch of posts that were discussing moderation on another forum. Stick to the topic at hand please.


  • #69
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    This individual is a dangerous Nazi terrorist who served in the Azov battalion in Ukraine not the saintly choirboy journalist he is being portrayed as.


  • #70
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    This individual is a dangerous Nazi terrorist who served in the Azov battalion in Ukraine not the saintly choirboy journalist he is being portrayed as.

    And where did you guys pick up this handy talking point ? It wouldn't have been Russia Twitter would it ?


  • #71
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    listermint wrote: »
    And where did you guys pick up this handy talking point ? It wouldn't have been Russia Twitter would it ?

    There are several photos of him in uniform serving with them but i suppose because he claims he is pro western him serving with actual Nazis is ok?


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  • #72
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    There are several photos of him in uniform serving with them but i suppose because he claims he is pro western him serving with actual Nazis is ok?

    So you have evidence of him being a nazi ? Or is it just so unverified photos being shared from pro Belarus and anti EU Twitter accounts.


  • #73
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    listermint wrote: »
    So you have evidence of him being a nazi ? Or is it just so unverified photos being shared from pro Belarus and anti EU Twitter accounts.

    https://twitter.com/DeanoBeano1/status/1397605229223452674?s=19

    I'm sure he just got lost on his travels and accidentally joined a unit of neo nazis hundreds of miles from home could happen to any of us.


  • #74
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/DeanoBeano1/status/1397605229223452674?s=19

    I'm sure he just got lost on his travels and accidentally joined a unit of neo nazis hundreds of miles from home could happen to any of us.

    Sorry in still trying to grapple what proof of anything this is. Genuinely?


  • #75
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    listermint wrote: »
    Sorry in still trying to grapple what proof of anything this is. Genuinely?

    He is pictured in the Azov battalion a Nazi organisation it's not very hard to grasp the point being made here.


  • #76
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    listermint wrote: »
    Sorry in still trying to grapple what proof of anything this is. Genuinely?

    I'm trying to grapple with what on earth difference it makes.


  • #77
    blackwhite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,960 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I'm trying to grapple with what on earth difference it makes.

    It's back to the same tactics used by the Kremlin cheerleaders on here when Russia annexed Ukranian territory.

    "Everyone opposed to us is a Nazi, therefore every crime we commit is actually perfectly fine".


  • #78
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I'm trying to grapple with what on earth difference it makes.

    The difference it makes is that the media is portraying him as a pro democracy journalist when the truth is he is much more dangerous than that.

    The Belarussian government accuse him of trying to ferment an armed rebellion against them now if he were a simple pro democracy journalist that would be dismissed as nonsense straight away but given that he is a military trained neo nazi it can't be dismissed.


  • #79
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Even if he can be considered a terrorist for his associations, where are the precedents, or the justification, of a civil aircraft being forced to land because they have a suspected terrorist onboard?

    Even if we accept the notion that he was a legitimate target for arrest, the methods used were completely disproportionate and at odds with the rest of the continent's own approaches. Just because we may not like the guy's politics, the ends can't justify the means here. Suspects tend to be arrested either at either terminal, not via MiG interception and de-facto coercion; it's not like the flight itself was a target, or Pratasevich's associates were known suicide bombers.


  • #80
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    The difference it makes is that the media is portraying him as a pro democracy journalist when the truth is he is much more dangerous than that.

    The Belarussian government accuse him of trying to ferment an armed rebellion against them now if he were a simple pro democracy journalist that would be dismissed as nonsense straight away but given that he is a military trained neo nazi it can't be dismissed.

    None of this, even if true, mitigates what they did. It is utterly irrelevant.


  • #81
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Even if he can be considered a terrorist for his associations, where are the precedents, or the justification, of a civil aircraft being forced to land because they have a suspected terrorist onboard?

    Even if we accept the notion that he was a legitimate target for arrest, the methods used were completely disproportionate and at odds with the rest of the continent's own approaches. Just because we may not like the guy's politics, the ends can't justify the means here. Suspects tend to be arrested either at either terminal, not via MiG interception and de-facto coercion; it's not like the flight itself was a target, or Pratasevich's associates were known suicide bombers.

    Evo morales plane was forced to land in Vienna in 2013 due to the ludicrous claim that Snowden was aboard perhaps they are using that as precedent?


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  • #82
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    None of this, even if true, mitigates what they did. It is utterly irrelevant.

    Of course it is relevant he is being portrayed as a Western loving peaceful pro democracy journalist when in truth he is a neo nazi thug with military training.

    Now the methods employed by Belarus to arrest this terrorist were clearly wrong and illegal but let's not pretend the outrage would be the same if say Britain seized an ISIS terrorist in this manner.


  • #83
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Morales plane was denied overflight rights before entering airspace and diverted to Vienna for this reason. Not great, but wildly different.

    He is being portrayed as a journalist who Belarus concocted a false bomb scare and sent military aircraft to intimidate a civilian airliner to reroute to their territory in order to arrest. This remains entirely accurate.


  • #84
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    The difference it makes is that the media is portraying him as a pro democracy journalist when the truth is he is much more dangerous than that.

    The Belarussian government accuse him of trying to ferment an armed rebellion against them now if he were a simple pro democracy journalist that would be dismissed as nonsense straight away but given that he is a military trained neo nazi it can't be dismissed.

    How reliable is the evidence to support the Nazi or Neo-Nazi claim? Are the photos genuine in content or circumstance? [Is it him, and is that a Neo-Nazi group?]

    The tactic appears to be that the Belarus Gov puts out a big lie, and when that does not work, puts out a bigger lie. For example, Lukashenko did not win the election by a whisker, but got 80% of the votes, which is unlikely to be true. The supposed bomb on board was from Hamas - which was most unlikely to be true. Now it was Switzerland that warned about the bomb on board.

    And so on. Why would anyone believe anything they put out?


  • #85
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Morales plane was denied overflight rights before entering airspace and diverted to Vienna for this reason. Not great, but wildly different.

    He is being portrayed as a journalist who Belarus concocted a false bomb scare and sent military aircraft to intimidate a civilian airliner to reroute to their territory in order to arrest. This remains entirely accurate.

    Not really, they forced the plane to run out of fuel, and then gave it permission to land in Austria.


  • #86
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    How reliable is the evidence to support the Nazi or Neo-Nazi claim?

    Pretty sketchy I'd say, anyone to the right of Pol Pot, Mao, or Stalin is called far-right / neo nazi these days.


  • #87
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    Of course it is relevant he is being portrayed as a Western loving peaceful pro democracy journalist when in truth he is a neo nazi thug with military training.

    Now the methods employed by Belarus to arrest this terrorist were clearly wrong and illegal but let's not pretend the outrage would be the same if say Britain seized an ISIS terrorist in this manner.

    Once again. Il ask. Do you have any real evidence of .

    1. He has any Nazi connections.
    2. That is even him in this images that just surfaced.

    I'm asking because it seems you are quite happy to talk unknown Twitter sources trading back to anti EU accounts as gospel. Which I find quite unusual. I would have assumed truth seeking and mistrust of source material was a go to thing.


  • #88
    VG31
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,474 ✭✭✭VG31


    blackwhite wrote: »
    It's back to the same tactics used by the Kremlin cheerleaders on here when Russia annexed Ukranian territory.

    "Everyone opposed to us is a Nazi, therefore every crime we commit is actually perfectly fine".

    I remember a while ago Russian propaganda also made out Navalny to be some some kind of far-right extremist or Nazi.


  • #89
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    VG31 wrote: »
    I remember a while ago Russian propaganda also made out Navalny to be some some kind of far-right extremist or Nazi.

    In Europe it's Nazi in the US it's pizza and child trafficking.


  • #90
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    VG31 wrote: »
    I remember a while ago Russian propaganda also made out Navalny to be some some kind of far-right extremist or Nazi.

    Perhaps you should look up some old Navalny interviews he espouses some hideous anti immigrant rhetoric.


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  • #91
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    listermint wrote: »
    Once again. Il ask. Do you have any real evidence of .

    1. He has any Nazi connections.
    2. That is even him in this images that just surfaced.

    I'm asking because it seems you are quite happy to talk unknown Twitter sources trading back to anti EU accounts as gospel. Which I find quite unusual. I would have assumed truth seeking and mistrust of source material was a go to thing.

    That's him in the photos ffs there are several different photos of him and no denials from anyone on his side. The NY times printed his involvement in azov before later deleting it


  • #92
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    listermint wrote: »
    Once again. Il ask. Do you have any real evidence of .

    1. He has any Nazi connections.
    2. That is even him in this images that just surfaced.

    I'm asking because it seems you are quite happy to talk unknown Twitter sources trading back to anti EU accounts as gospel. Which I find quite unusual. I would have assumed truth seeking and mistrust of source material was a go to thing.

    https://twitter.com/ColborneMichael/status/1397248936570667009?s=19


  • #93
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/ColborneMichael/status/1397248936570667009?s=19

    Okay , that doesn't make him a Nazi though. It does mean that be fought / was there against the russian occupation of Ukraine. That's all this proves.


  • #94
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    The change of topic and conversation from Belarus's actions to the victims political views is deliberate.


  • #95
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    listermint wrote: »
    Okay , that doesn't make him a Nazi though. It does mean that be fought / was there against the russian occupation of Ukraine. That's all this proves.

    Oh give me strength the azov battalion is widely recognized as a neo nazi organisation


  • #96
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    mcmoustache wrote: »
    The change of topic and conversation from Belarus's actions to the victims political views is deliberate.

    Yes God forbid people would have the full story on the "innocent journalist" .


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  • #97
    abff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭abff


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    Yes God forbid people would have the full story on the "innocent journalist" .

    Surely whether he’s innocent or not is totally irrelevant. There is absolutely no justification for what they did. None!


  • #98
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    Yes God forbid people would have the full story on the "innocent journalist" .


    It doesn't change anything about the legitimacy of forcing down a plane. It's irrelevant to the action that was taken by Belarus. The guy's actions in Ukraine weren't even raised as a reason for the hijacking.


    When people use the term "innocent" with regard to someone who has been arrested, they usually mean innocent with regard to what the person is being accused of and not innocent in every other aspect of their lives.


    What is it that got you so wound up about this guy anyway that you felt the need to really go at it like that? I had read about the Azov ties through Bellingcat around three or four days ago but I didn't see how it was relevant to the hijacking. I know that the Russian propaganda outlets have been working their magic to get the permanently gullible to be outraged about it so I wasn't sure how long it would take to show up here.


  • #99
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    mcmoustache wrote: »
    It doesn't change anything about the legitimacy of forcing down a plane. It's irrelevant to the action that was taken by Belarus. The guy's actions in Ukraine weren't even raised as a reason for the hijacking.


    When people use the term "innocent" with regard to someone who has been arrested, they usually mean innocent with regard to what the person is being accused of and not innocent in every other aspect of their lives.


    What is it that got you so wound up about this guy anyway that you felt the need to really go at it like that? I had read about the Azov ties through Bellingcat around three or four days ago but I didn't see how it was relevant to the hijacking. I know that the Russian propaganda outlets have been working their magic to get the permanently gullible to be outraged about it so I wasn't sure how long it would take to show up here.

    Permanently gullible? Wow from someone who reads bellingcat that's hilarious. I think it is information relevant to the story as a whole I mean how is it not? He is being portrayed as an innocent pro democracy journalist the truth is of course far darker.


  • #100
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,829 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    Permanently gullible? Wow from someone who reads bellingcat that's hilarious. I think it is information relevant to the story as a whole I mean how is it not? He is being portrayed as an innocent pro democracy journalist the truth is of course far darker.

    You've fallen for the strawman propaganda. Therefore you are gullible.

    Kind of a text book example.
    Untitled Image




  • #101
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    abff wrote: »
    Surely whether he’s innocent or not is totally irrelevant. There is absolutely no justification for what they did. None!

    If you mean not sufficient justification for his arrest and the manner they did it in that's correct, but then the EU tried a similar stunt with Snowden.

    If you mean a country cannot land a plane and have it inspected in their own country no matter what, then you are incorrect.

    Let's face it, it's pretty stupid for someone wanted by the authorities in a country to enter their territory and presume the authorities can and will do nothing about it. That's magical thinking.


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