Belarus force down Ryanair plane

looksee

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/forced-landing-of-ryanair-plane-in-belarus-to-detain-activist-unacceptable-eu-says-1.4572846

This looks like a remarkably serious action by Belarus - they forced down a Ryanair plane by saying there was a bomb threat, then arrested journalist/activist Raman Pratasevich while doing security checks on passengers.

This would have to have consequences or chaos will ensue if countries think they can get their way by this kind of force.

Fr Tod Umptious

Why didn't the pilot just tell them to feck off and say that he/she was landing in Lithuania as per their job* ?

*Not a real opinion, I know nothing about aircraft or the procedures in these sorts of circumstances, but it's likely the type of reply you will get around here.

BeerWolf

State sponsored terrorism using a bomb scare to apprehend someone...

He is most likely going to 'disappear'.

Disgusting

VinLieger

Michael O Leary is saying there were also Russian intelligence agents on the flight

pixelburp

Wouldn't trust O'Leary to tell me the time to be honest.How on earth would he possibly know that?

To the OP, what realistic options are there? Feels like a dangerous precedent if allowed to go unanswered, or unpunished. But then given the EU isn't a conventionally aggressive entity I'm not sure what could be done either. Bar the obvious like sanctions.

VinLieger

pixelburp wrote: »

Wouldn't trust O'Leary to tell me the time to be honest.How on earth would he possibly know that?

To the OP, what realistic options are there? Feels like a dangerous precedent if allowed to go unanswered, or unpunished. But then given the EU isn't a conventionally aggressive entity I'm not sure what could be done either. Bar the obvious like sanctions.

Coveney just made the same claim on Newstalk, apparently 3-4 other individuals just up and left the flight in Minsk

VinLieger

VinLieger wrote: »

Michael O Leary is saying there were also Russian intelligence agents on the flight

Completely unrelated. They are plane enthusiasts who always wanted to see the inside of a 737-800.

Hodors Appletart

Aegir wrote: »

Completely unrelated. They are plane enthusiasts who always wanted to see the inside of a 737-800.

The language used by both Coveney and MOL this monring ("State sponsored hijacking/State sponsored piracy") suggests some behind the scenes communication and an agreed response.

EU have to be strong here.

purplepanda

Ryanair's Michael O'Leary was totally against a small passenger surcharge towards an Irish Air Corps, defence patrol for aviation security. Probably worried about vast profit margins.

Then he squeals when one of his planes gets diverted by the Belarus Air Force, what a hypocrite. Demanding EU action from nations who actually properly fund their military forces!

This is the same Ryanair company that O'Leary is more than happy to take billions from the nation to ensure his survival during the current Covid19 crisis.

listermint

pixelburp wrote: »

Wouldn't trust O'Leary to tell me the time to be honest.How on earth would he possibly know that?

To the OP, what realistic options are there? Feels like a dangerous precedent if allowed to go unanswered, or unpunished. But then given the EU isn't a conventionally aggressive entity I'm not sure what could be done either. Bar the obvious like sanctions.

Reports of 3 or 4 russian nationals on the plane some now not accounted for.....

Fann Linn

purplepanda wrote: »

Ryanair's Michael O'Leary was totally against a small passenger surcharge towards an Irish Air Corps, defence patrol for aviation security. Probably worried about vast profit margins.

Then he squeals when one of his planes gets diverted by the Belarus Air Force, what a hypocrite. Demanding EU action from nations who actually properly fund their military forces!

This is the same Ryanair company that O'Leary is more than happy to take billions from the nation to ensure it's survivial during the current Covid19 crisis.

Regardless what people think of O Leary or RyanAir he is not the one at fault here.

BeerWolf

pixelburp wrote: »

Bar the obvious like sanctions.

Sanctions will do damn all since the country beds with Russia, and the EU won't do much to Russia due to Gas pipeline.

StevenToast

The outrage over this seems to be greater than when Israel bombed palestinian children to death......no mention of tough sanctions against Israel....Just fake outrage really...

I wonder why that is....

View

VinLieger wrote: »

Michael O Leary is saying there were also Russian intelligence agents on the flight

Belarus is not Russia. And they can’t have been very good if they were supposedly identifiable as intelligence agents.

Samsonsmasher

View wrote: »

Belarus is not Russia. And they can’t have been very good if they were supposedly identifiable as intelligence agents.

They were Belarus KGB or the State Security Committee of the Republic of Belarus or more correctly the KPD. The men involved in capturing this dissident are likely to be members of Belarusian Alpha Group an elite special forces unit controlled by the KPD.
The snatch team posed as fellow passengers on the plane. They presumably were tracking their target for quite sometime and followed him to Athens. If there was a support team they likely left Greece by another route.

listermint

StevenToast wrote: »

The outrage over this seems to be greater than when Israel bombed palestinian children to death......no mention of tough sanctions against Israel....Just fake outrage really...

I wonder why that is....

There is though but the US keeps blocking anything and veto at the security council too.

View

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

They were Belarus KGB or the State Security Committee of the Republic of Belarus or more correctly the KPD. The men involved in capturing this dissident are likely to be members of Belarusian Alpha Group an elite special forces unit controlled by the KPD.
The snatch team posed as fellow passengers on the plane. They presumably were tracking their target for quite sometime and followed him to Athens. If there was a support team they likely left Greece by another route.

That doesn’t alter my point about them being from Belarus, not Russia. People seem to be struggling with the idea they are two different countries.

Samsonsmasher

View wrote: »

That doesn’t alter my point about them being from Belarus, not Russia. People seem to be struggling with the idea they are two different countries.

Belarus is a different country but closely allied with Putin. The Belarussian political military security and social elite identify closely with Russia. So the confusion is forgiveable

VinLieger

View wrote: »

That doesn’t alter my point about them being from Belarus, not Russia. People seem to be struggling with the idea they are two different countries.

Well firstly Coveney is the one saying they were Russian and people are repeating what the person who should know has said. Do you know of a reputable source that says otherwise?

Secondly yes they may Have been members of the Belarusian KGB but thanks to pop culture when people hear KGB they think Russia so its an understandable mistake to make for the average person.

Thirdly as someone else pointed out Russian and Belarusian interests right now are very closely aligned so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that they were actually Russian agents assisting Belarus as Russia undoubtedly has a far greater reach outside its own borders than Belarus does.

But continue with your high and mighty pedantry if you wish even though as it stands our Minister for Foreign Affairs has specifically called them Russian.

View

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

Belarus is a different country but closely allied with Putin. The Belarussian political military security and social elite identify closely with Russia. So the confusion is forgiveable

It may be understandable but it is one that we shouldn’t make. The fact that we are closely linked to the U.K. in many respects (eg the CTA) doesn’t (or shouldn’t) mean that Ireland is the “U.K. West”.

purplepanda

Fann Linn wrote: »

Regardless what people think of O Leary or RyanAir he is not the one at fault here.

I'm not suggesting he or Ryanair is at fault regarding the hijack, just pointing out his hypocritical views on Defence matters over the years going right back to 9/11.

prawnsambo

View wrote: »

It may be understandable but it is one that we shouldn’t make. The fact that we are closely linked to the U.K. in many respects (eg the CTA) doesn’t (or shouldn’t) mean that Ireland is the “U.K. West”.

This has nothing to do with the perceived closeness of Belarus and Russia. The four people who were reported to have left the plane in Minsk were reported to have been Russian nationals. That information would presumably have come from the passenger manifest.

daheff

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Why didn't the pilot just tell them to feck off and say that he/she was landing in Lithuania as per their job* ?

*Not a real opinion, I know nothing about aircraft or the procedures in these sorts of circumstances, but it's likely the type of reply you will get around here.

fighter jet threatening to turn them into small pieces of flying flaming wreckage may have had something to do with it


also as a pilot would you really not obey authorities who are telling you of a bomb threat ?

prawnsambo

This morning, it seems like there's a bad smell emanating from Belarus



But Ryanair pilots have been issued with nose plugs apparently

Sam Russell

Reports are that four 'Russians' and the Belarus journalist Roman Protasevich plus his companion were not on the flight leaving Minsk to resume the flight to Vilnius.

Now the missing passengers would be on the manifest, which would include their names and the passport details - because Ryanair check the booked name against the passport. Now the name may be fake, and the passport may be fake, but it might be a genuine fake - issued by the official issuing authority - like that used by the KGB.

If anyone knows if the were travelling as Russian or Belarus or any other nationality - it is Ryanair. So ask Ryanair.

The One Doctor

purplepanda wrote: »

Ryanair's Michael O'Leary was totally against a small passenger surcharge towards an Irish Air Corps, defence patrol for aviation security.

A PC-9 can't keep up with a 737. Also a PC9 can't defend other aircraft. It's a light ground attack aircraft, not a fighter.

Sam Russell

The One Doctor wrote: »

A PC-9 can't keep up with a 737. Also a PC9 can't defend other aircraft. It's a light ground attack aircraft, not a fighter.

Remember, civil aviation is not safe over that part of the world - Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17) was a scheduled passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that was shot down on 17 July 2014 - all lives lost. A Russian missile was responsible - fired by Ukraine dissidents.

I think the EU should ban EU flights from overflying Belarus, and ban Belarus flights - period. That would be for starters.

lawred2

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Why didn't the pilot just tell them to feck off and say that he/she was landing in Lithuania as per their job* ?

*Not a real opinion, I know nothing about aircraft or the procedures in these sorts of circumstances, but it's likely the type of reply you will get around here.

and take the chance that the plane won't explode?

political analyst

purplepanda wrote: »

Ryanair's Michael O'Leary was totally against a small passenger surcharge towards an Irish Air Corps, defence patrol for aviation security. Probably worried about vast profit margins.

Does the UK have a passenger surcharge towards the RAF?! :rolleyes: Our air corps would be useless if a hijacking took place in Irish airspace - surcharge or no surcharge!

purplepanda wrote: »

This is the same Ryanair company that O'Leary is more than happy to take billions from the nation to ensure his survival during the current Covid19 crisis.

Many other Irish businesses have also been financially supported by the State during the pandemic.

The One Doctor

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the EU should ban EU flights from overflying Belarus, and ban Belarus flights - period. That would be for starters.

Banning the overflight of Belarus is a good idea. Most airlines will do that now anyway. No-one wants to be shot down.

For Forks Sake

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Why didn't the pilot just tell them to feck off and say that he/she was landing in Lithuania as per their job* ?

*Not a real opinion, I know nothing about aircraft or the procedures in these sorts of circumstances, but it's likely the type of reply you will get around here.

The Belarusian air force sent up a Mig-29 to keep them company which would have focussed the pilots thinking you would imagine.

political analyst

lawred2 wrote: »

and take the chance that the plane won't explode?

It would have been quicker to land at Vilnius than in Belarus. Even if there was a bomb, it could have exploded over Belarusian airspace anyway.

Lukashenko wouldn't have had the nerve to order the MiG pilot to shoot down the Ryanair flight that was only a minute or so away from NATO airspace.

lawred2

political analyst wrote: »

It would have been quicker to land at Vilnius than in Belarus. Even if there was a bomb, it could have exploded over Belarusian airspace anyway.

Lukashenko wouldn't have had the nerve to order the MiG pilot to shoot down the Ryanair flight that was only a minute or so away from NATO airspace.

a pilot is never taking such chances

they will do what they are instructed to do

Sam Russell

political analyst wrote: »

It would have been quicker to land at Vilnius than in Belarus. Even if there was a bomb, it could have exploded over Belarusian airspace anyway.

Lukashenko wouldn't have had the nerve to order the MiG pilot to shoot down the Ryanair flight that was only a minute or so away from NATO airspace.

If the bomb was real and the intention was to explode it, there was no point in diverting. The 9-11 hijacks point to that conclusion.

I do not know how much communication pilots have while flying in those circumstances. Can they phone home?

political analyst

lawred2 wrote: »

a pilot is never taking such chances

they will do what they are instructed to do

Point taken.

Indeed, the pilot had to consider the lives of all on board. Protasevich, as he was being led away, expressed fear that he would be executed, although he could ....

https://news.sky.com/story/ryanair-plane-diverted-so-blogger-could-be-arrested-who-is-roman-protasevich-12315440

.....face up to 15 years in jail if convicted.

Quin_Dub

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Why didn't the pilot just tell them to feck off and say that he/she was landing in Lithuania as per their job* ?

*Not a real opinion, I know nothing about aircraft or the procedures in these sorts of circumstances, but it's likely the type of reply you will get around here.

lawred2 wrote: »

and take the chance that the plane won't explode?

The key question about the alleged Bomb threat is why they didn't just land in Lithuania as planned given that they were considerably closer to there than Minsk.

If the concern was about "safety" then letting them continue on to the closer airport was the best option.

Obviously the Pilot doesn't really have a whole lot of options when there's a fighter jet coming alongside etc. , but the whole cover story just falls apart with even a cursory review.

rdhma

No reports I have seen indicate that the pilots knew the diversion was a ruse by the Belarusians. How could they?
Pilots are required to follow ATC directions if they want to keep their license.
The presence of a MiG-29 escort would concentrate the mind also.

political analyst

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The key question about the alleged Bomb threat is why they didn't just land in Lithuania as planned given that they were considerably closer to there than Minsk.

If the concern was about "safety" then letting them continue on to the closer airport was the best option.

Obviously the Pilot doesn't really have a whole lot of options when there's a fighter jet coming alongside etc. , but the whole cover story just falls apart with even a cursory review.

More to the point, why did Protasevich take a seat on the flight in the first place?!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57224452

Franak Viacorka, a friend and associate of Mr Protasevich, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that the journalist "already felt something bad" in Athens airport because he had seen that someone was following him.

Some passengers described seeing Mr Protasevich looking nervous as the incident unfolded. "He just turned to people and said he was facing the death penalty," Monika Simkiene told AFP news agency.

Another passenger told Reuters news agency that Mr Protasevich had opened an overhead locker after they were told of the diversion, pulled out a laptop and a phone and gave them to a female companion.

Mr Viacorka said the woman, who was Mr Protasevich's girlfriend and was arrested with him, was "not involved at all in anything, but they will be pursuing her because she's a close person to him". She has been named as Sofia Sapega, a Russian citizen.

If in doubt, get out!

He has put his girlfriend, as well as himself, in harm's way.

Boarding a flight that goes through Belarusian airspace was his equivalent of walking into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

Even if there hadn't been a bomb alert, he should have considered the possibility of being poisoned with a view to making him ill to provide a pretext for an emergency landing in Belarus, i.e. the footage of Navalny crying in pain after boarding an internal Russian flight.

lawrencesummers

Russia keeps the lights on in Europe.


The EU leaders are now in a position where they have to do nothing to the Russian province of Belarus while appearing to do something to the Russian province of Belarus

political analyst

political analyst wrote: »

More to the point, why did Protasevich take a seat on the flight in the first place?!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57224452



If in doubt, get out!

He has put his girlfriend, as well as himself, in harm's way.

Boarding a flight that goes through Belarusian airspace was his equivalent of walking into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

Even if there hadn't been a bomb alert, he should have considered the possibility of being poisoned with a view to making him ill to provide a pretext for an emergency landing in Belarus, i.e. the footage of Navalny crying in pain after boarding an internal Russian flight.

Since the opposition leader who is effectively on the run took the same flight a week ago, the possibility of this occurring simply didn't cross anyone's minds. Not even the airlines viewed there to be such a risk. So ya, I don't think you can blame the victim here..

political analyst

Deleted User wrote: »

Since the opposition leader who is effectively on the run took the same flight a week ago, the possibility of this occurring simply didn't cross anyone's minds. Not even the airlines viewed there to be such a risk. So ya, I don't think you can blame the victim here..

But what if a technical problem with the aircraft had materialised in Belarusian airspace and then the pilot had to make an emergency landing? It happens even with the most advanced aircraft.

lawred2

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The key question about the alleged Bomb threat is why they didn't just land in Lithuania as planned given that they were considerably closer to there than Minsk.

If the concern was about "safety" then letting them continue on to the closer airport was the best option.

Obviously the Pilot doesn't really have a whole lot of options when there's a fighter jet coming alongside etc. , but the whole cover story just falls apart with even a cursory review.

whose cover story?

blackwhite

purplepanda wrote: »

Ryanair's Michael O'Leary was totally against a small passenger surcharge towards an Irish Air Corps, defence patrol for aviation security. Probably worried about vast profit margins.

Then he squeals when one of his planes gets diverted by the Belarus Air Force, what a hypocrite. Demanding EU action from nations who actually properly fund their military forces!

This is the same Ryanair company that O'Leary is more than happy to take billions from the nation to ensure his survival during the current Covid19 crisis.

What exactly is the Irish Air Corps going to do when a fighter jet intercepts a passenger aircraft in Belarussian airspace?

Quin_Dub

lawred2 wrote: »

whose cover story?

The story line from Belarus that they were responding to a "security threat"

lawred2

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The story line from Belarus that they were responding to a "security threat"

ah yeah but that's irrelevant in the context of the decisions a pilot has to make

Apiarist

I hope that the response from the EU will be more effective than the usual words of "strong condemnation". You may think that Lukashenko is a two-bit dictator from an insignificant country. But the situation is closely watched in Moscow. Belarus is a test bed for repressive tactics that are rolled out in Russia. If the EU lets this slide, next thing you will see planes going over Russian territory being forcefully landed to extract any dissidents.

prawnsambo

Belarus has now expelled all Latvian diplomats and administration. Given 48 hours to leave. Latvia banned all flights in and out of Belarus. UK has also banned Belavia (Belarussian flag carrier) from landing in the UK and advised all British aircraft to avoid Belarussian air space.

signostic

prawnsambo wrote: »

Belarus has now expelled all Latvian diplomats and administration. Given 48 hours to leave. Latvia banned all flights in and out of Belarus. UK has also banned Belavia (Belarussian flag carrier) from landing in the UK and advised all British aircraft to avoid Belarussian air space.

Belorussian ambassador told to pack his bags and be gone in 24 hours, all other staff have 48 hours, decisive move by Latvia, does Belorussia have a presence in Ireland?
__________________

Amirani

signostic wrote: »

Belorussian ambassador told to pack his bags and be gone in 24 hours, all other staff have 48 hours, decisive move by Latvia, does Belorussia have a presence in Ireland?
__________________

Nope, don't believe they do.

whisky_galore

Had to laugh at our own mice that roared (Coveney and Martin) in chorus with that bigger roaring mouse (EU)

A few sanctions and that'll be about it, back to business as usual.

Calahonda52

victor8600 wrote: »

I hope that the response from the EU will be more effective than the usual words of "strong condemnation". You may think that Lukashenko is a two-bit dictator from an insignificant country. But the situation is closely watched in Moscow. Belarus is a test bed for repressive tactics that are rolled out in Russia. If the EU lets this slide, next thing you will see planes going over Russian territory being forcefully landed to extract any dissidents.

If the EU lets this slide, next thing you will see planes going over EU territory being forcefully landed to extract any dissidents