Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Belarus force down Ryanair plane

Options
13

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    paul71
    Registered Users Posts: 3,108 ✭✭✭paul71


    political analyst wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57239521



    As far as I know, nobody in Belarus under Lukashenko's rule has been executed for a non-fatal offence.

    Several have been "suicided".


  • Options
    #63
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    political analyst wrote: »
    More to the point, why did Protasevich take a seat on the flight in the first place?!

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57224452

    If in doubt, get out!

    He has put his girlfriend, as well as himself, in harm's way.

    Boarding a flight that goes through Belarusian airspace was his equivalent of walking into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

    Even if there hadn't been a bomb alert, he should have considered the possibility of being poisoned with a view to making him ill to provide a pretext for an emergency landing in Belarus, i.e. the footage of Navalny crying in pain after boarding an internal Russian flight.

    This is exactly it. The pretend notion that any county should not, and therefore will not, control what happens in their own airspace when they want to is laughable in it's childish naivety.

    "I've got my magic moral high ground to protect me, no country can stop ME when I travel through their country"


  • Options
    #64
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,329 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Targeted sanctions against named individuals hurt. Especially in a kleptocratic regime. All that lovely money salted away outside the country is suddenly out of reach. The flight sanctions will also hurt.

    It'll certainly make them think twice about the next time they try this stunt or similar.

    There is very little that can be effectively done when a country decides to act a certain way. Sanctions hurt North Kore and Iran for example, but they will carry on as they do because of national pride. I do think though that sanctions bring a result that they are limited so as not to invoke heavier penalties.


  • Options
    #65
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    The forcing down of Bolivian President Evo Morales's plane – denied airspace by France, Spain and Portugal, followed by his 14-hour confinement while Austrian officials demanded to "inspect" his aircraft for the "fugitive" Edward Snowden – was an act of air piracy and state terrorism. It was a metaphor for the gangsterism that now rules the world and the cowardice and hypocrisy of bystanders who dare not speak its name.
    To be fair, we (EU-NATO) have set the gold standard by detaining a Presidential plane, not a Ryanair flight.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/04/forcing-down-morales-plane-air-piracy


  • Options
    #66
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,615 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Tea drinker wrote: »
    To be fair, we (EU-NATO) have set the gold standard by detaining a Presidential plane, not a Ryanair flight.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/04/forcing-down-morales-plane-air-piracy

    False equivalence different circumstances different tactics different actions different everything. But you know this you've probably had this all pointed out to you on Twitter where you picked it up.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I would assume that anyone who is conflating pre-emptively and legally denying access to air space before an aircraft reaches it and criminally forcing a plane to land on your territory as they overfly it are doing so out of ignorance rather than malice.

    The Morales affair was unpleasant, a diplomatic mess and reflects poorly on all those involved. It is also not remotely comparable.


  • Options
    #68
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Mod Note

    I've deleted a bunch of posts that were discussing moderation on another forum. Stick to the topic at hand please.


  • Options
    #69
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    This individual is a dangerous Nazi terrorist who served in the Azov battalion in Ukraine not the saintly choirboy journalist he is being portrayed as.


  • Options
    #70
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,615 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    This individual is a dangerous Nazi terrorist who served in the Azov battalion in Ukraine not the saintly choirboy journalist he is being portrayed as.

    And where did you guys pick up this handy talking point ? It wouldn't have been Russia Twitter would it ?


  • Options
    #71
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    listermint wrote: »
    And where did you guys pick up this handy talking point ? It wouldn't have been Russia Twitter would it ?

    There are several photos of him in uniform serving with them but i suppose because he claims he is pro western him serving with actual Nazis is ok?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,615 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    There are several photos of him in uniform serving with them but i suppose because he claims he is pro western him serving with actual Nazis is ok?

    So you have evidence of him being a nazi ? Or is it just so unverified photos being shared from pro Belarus and anti EU Twitter accounts.


  • Options
    #73
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    listermint wrote: »
    So you have evidence of him being a nazi ? Or is it just so unverified photos being shared from pro Belarus and anti EU Twitter accounts.

    https://twitter.com/DeanoBeano1/status/1397605229223452674?s=19

    I'm sure he just got lost on his travels and accidentally joined a unit of neo nazis hundreds of miles from home could happen to any of us.


  • Options
    #74
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,615 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/DeanoBeano1/status/1397605229223452674?s=19

    I'm sure he just got lost on his travels and accidentally joined a unit of neo nazis hundreds of miles from home could happen to any of us.

    Sorry in still trying to grapple what proof of anything this is. Genuinely?


  • Options
    #75
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    listermint wrote: »
    Sorry in still trying to grapple what proof of anything this is. Genuinely?

    He is pictured in the Azov battalion a Nazi organisation it's not very hard to grasp the point being made here.


  • Options
    #76
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    listermint wrote: »
    Sorry in still trying to grapple what proof of anything this is. Genuinely?

    I'm trying to grapple with what on earth difference it makes.


  • Options
    #77
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,471 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I'm trying to grapple with what on earth difference it makes.

    It's back to the same tactics used by the Kremlin cheerleaders on here when Russia annexed Ukranian territory.

    "Everyone opposed to us is a Nazi, therefore every crime we commit is actually perfectly fine".


  • Options
    #78
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I'm trying to grapple with what on earth difference it makes.

    The difference it makes is that the media is portraying him as a pro democracy journalist when the truth is he is much more dangerous than that.

    The Belarussian government accuse him of trying to ferment an armed rebellion against them now if he were a simple pro democracy journalist that would be dismissed as nonsense straight away but given that he is a military trained neo nazi it can't be dismissed.


  • Options
    #79
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Even if he can be considered a terrorist for his associations, where are the precedents, or the justification, of a civil aircraft being forced to land because they have a suspected terrorist onboard?

    Even if we accept the notion that he was a legitimate target for arrest, the methods used were completely disproportionate and at odds with the rest of the continent's own approaches. Just because we may not like the guy's politics, the ends can't justify the means here. Suspects tend to be arrested either at either terminal, not via MiG interception and de-facto coercion; it's not like the flight itself was a target, or Pratasevich's associates were known suicide bombers.


  • Options
    #80
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    The difference it makes is that the media is portraying him as a pro democracy journalist when the truth is he is much more dangerous than that.

    The Belarussian government accuse him of trying to ferment an armed rebellion against them now if he were a simple pro democracy journalist that would be dismissed as nonsense straight away but given that he is a military trained neo nazi it can't be dismissed.

    None of this, even if true, mitigates what they did. It is utterly irrelevant.


  • Options
    #81
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Even if he can be considered a terrorist for his associations, where are the precedents, or the justification, of a civil aircraft being forced to land because they have a suspected terrorist onboard?

    Even if we accept the notion that he was a legitimate target for arrest, the methods used were completely disproportionate and at odds with the rest of the continent's own approaches. Just because we may not like the guy's politics, the ends can't justify the means here. Suspects tend to be arrested either at either terminal, not via MiG interception and de-facto coercion; it's not like the flight itself was a target, or Pratasevich's associates were known suicide bombers.

    Evo morales plane was forced to land in Vienna in 2013 due to the ludicrous claim that Snowden was aboard perhaps they are using that as precedent?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    None of this, even if true, mitigates what they did. It is utterly irrelevant.

    Of course it is relevant he is being portrayed as a Western loving peaceful pro democracy journalist when in truth he is a neo nazi thug with military training.

    Now the methods employed by Belarus to arrest this terrorist were clearly wrong and illegal but let's not pretend the outrage would be the same if say Britain seized an ISIS terrorist in this manner.


  • Options
    #83
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Morales plane was denied overflight rights before entering airspace and diverted to Vienna for this reason. Not great, but wildly different.

    He is being portrayed as a journalist who Belarus concocted a false bomb scare and sent military aircraft to intimidate a civilian airliner to reroute to their territory in order to arrest. This remains entirely accurate.


  • Options
    #84
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    The difference it makes is that the media is portraying him as a pro democracy journalist when the truth is he is much more dangerous than that.

    The Belarussian government accuse him of trying to ferment an armed rebellion against them now if he were a simple pro democracy journalist that would be dismissed as nonsense straight away but given that he is a military trained neo nazi it can't be dismissed.

    How reliable is the evidence to support the Nazi or Neo-Nazi claim? Are the photos genuine in content or circumstance? [Is it him, and is that a Neo-Nazi group?]

    The tactic appears to be that the Belarus Gov puts out a big lie, and when that does not work, puts out a bigger lie. For example, Lukashenko did not win the election by a whisker, but got 80% of the votes, which is unlikely to be true. The supposed bomb on board was from Hamas - which was most unlikely to be true. Now it was Switzerland that warned about the bomb on board.

    And so on. Why would anyone believe anything they put out?


  • Options
    #85
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Morales plane was denied overflight rights before entering airspace and diverted to Vienna for this reason. Not great, but wildly different.

    He is being portrayed as a journalist who Belarus concocted a false bomb scare and sent military aircraft to intimidate a civilian airliner to reroute to their territory in order to arrest. This remains entirely accurate.

    Not really, they forced the plane to run out of fuel, and then gave it permission to land in Austria.


  • Options
    #86
    Swindled
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭Swindled


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    How reliable is the evidence to support the Nazi or Neo-Nazi claim?

    Pretty sketchy I'd say, anyone to the right of Pol Pot, Mao, or Stalin is called far-right / neo nazi these days.


  • Options
    #87
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,615 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    Of course it is relevant he is being portrayed as a Western loving peaceful pro democracy journalist when in truth he is a neo nazi thug with military training.

    Now the methods employed by Belarus to arrest this terrorist were clearly wrong and illegal but let's not pretend the outrage would be the same if say Britain seized an ISIS terrorist in this manner.

    Once again. Il ask. Do you have any real evidence of .

    1. He has any Nazi connections.
    2. That is even him in this images that just surfaced.

    I'm asking because it seems you are quite happy to talk unknown Twitter sources trading back to anti EU accounts as gospel. Which I find quite unusual. I would have assumed truth seeking and mistrust of source material was a go to thing.


  • Options
    #88
    VG31
    Registered Users Posts: 3,390 ✭✭✭VG31


    blackwhite wrote: »
    It's back to the same tactics used by the Kremlin cheerleaders on here when Russia annexed Ukranian territory.

    "Everyone opposed to us is a Nazi, therefore every crime we commit is actually perfectly fine".

    I remember a while ago Russian propaganda also made out Navalny to be some some kind of far-right extremist or Nazi.


  • Options
    #89
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,615 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    VG31 wrote: »
    I remember a while ago Russian propaganda also made out Navalny to be some some kind of far-right extremist or Nazi.

    In Europe it's Nazi in the US it's pizza and child trafficking.


  • Options
    #90
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    VG31 wrote: »
    I remember a while ago Russian propaganda also made out Navalny to be some some kind of far-right extremist or Nazi.

    Perhaps you should look up some old Navalny interviews he espouses some hideous anti immigrant rhetoric.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    Scoundrel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    listermint wrote: »
    Once again. Il ask. Do you have any real evidence of .

    1. He has any Nazi connections.
    2. That is even him in this images that just surfaced.

    I'm asking because it seems you are quite happy to talk unknown Twitter sources trading back to anti EU accounts as gospel. Which I find quite unusual. I would have assumed truth seeking and mistrust of source material was a go to thing.

    That's him in the photos ffs there are several different photos of him and no denials from anyone on his side. The NY times printed his involvement in azov before later deleting it


Advertisement