Ballymurphy massacre

blueskys · 13-05-2021 4:07pm

What some people seem to forget is that the movement for civil rights in the north was a peaceful movement and the IRA was basically non existent at the time they started up. If the Unionist Govt at the time engaged in any meaningful way with the civil rights movement then we wouldn't have had 'the troubles' or the birth of the Provos. Instead Civil Rights marchers were shot, beaten and attacked with sticks with nails in them whilst the 'Police' actively looked on.

Miniegg · 13-05-2021 4:21pm

downcow wrote: »

Believe it or not I completely understand your point of view, and I get. Most nationalists see the killings by the British Army (which were extremely small in number compared to terrorism) as somehow worse than the killing of e.g. border Protestants by the IRA or the killing of Catholics by the Shankill butchers.
Most Unionists I know, see it entirely differently. I have really tried to avoid comparing atrocities, but since a number of posts are now doing it, I feel I need to point out that if you start making comparisons, Unionists will inevitably see it as even worse, when isolated rural Protestants spent every hour of the day worrying that an IRA terrorist was going to lie in wait outside their home and shoot them in the back when they were taking their kids to school.

I was actually horrified by the BM massacre as it was told on the news last night. I was not aware how innocent those people were and I completely absolutely condemn the indiscriminate killing of them. There was no excuse.

Downcow I hope I am picking you up wrong but reading your posts it appears that your input on this thread is purely to say that what happened in Ballymurphy was "wrong" whilst tacitly legitimizing it because "look at what the IRA did". Why else mention them? The IRA has absolutely nothing to do with Ballymurphy, the people who were murdered had absolutely nothing to do with the IRA.

Also it is wise not to compare atrocities, given that the 'native' Irish had Cromwell, the Plantations, the Penal Laws, indentured servitude, the mass starvation of the Famine (when the country was full of food), the use of poor Irish people as cannon fodder in countless British wars, the attempted extinction of Gaelic language and culture, the execution of 1916 revolutionaries, the Black and Tans, the burning of Cork, the murder of innocent players and spectators at Croke Park, partition, Derry Bloody Sunday, UK state collusion with loyalist death squads and countless others inflicted on them by the British state.

Maybe you don't see, agree or believe this, but for Irish nationalists the Ballymurphy massacre is one more in a long line of atrocities inflicted on their communities down the years by the British state and their proxys.

A simple "sorry for your troubles" and move on might serve you a bit better in future.

gormdubhgorm · 13-05-2021 4:24pm

blueskys wrote: »

What some people seem to forget is that the movement for civil rights in the north was a peaceful movement and the IRA was basically non existent at the time they started up. If the Unionist Govt at the time engaged in any meaningful way with the civil rights movement then we wouldn't have had 'the troubles' or the birth of the Provos. Instead Civil Rights marchers were shot, beaten and attacked with sticks with nails in them whilst the 'Police' actively looked on.

So basically you are saying eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. Isn't that marvelous. Thankfully there were men like Hume who did not think like that.
History has proven him right.

BonnieSituation · 13-05-2021 4:24pm

blueskys wrote: »

What some people seem to forget is that the movement for civil rights in the north was a peaceful movement and the IRA was basically non existent at the time they started up. If the Unionist Govt at the time engaged in any meaningful way with the civil rights movement then we wouldn't have had 'the troubles' or the birth of the Provos. Instead Civil Rights marchers were shot, beaten and attacked with sticks with nails in them whilst the 'Police' actively looked on.

You can apply that to British interventions everywhere. The rise of Irish nationalism is pocked with bad treatment. It's beyond me how they keep doing the same thing and end up surprised at the results.

BonnieSituation · 13-05-2021 4:26pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So basically you are saying eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. Isn't that marvelous. Thankfully there were men like Hume who did not think like that.
History has proven him right.

Would you ever stop. Honestly, what are you trying to achieve here?

Miniegg · 13-05-2021 4:59pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So basically you are saying eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. Isn't that marvelous. Thankfully there were men like Hume who did not think like that.
History has proven him right.

Somehow you are saying that this poster describing the position that Irish nationalists in NI were in is tantamount to him declaring the same treatment upon the British?

I agree with you that Nationalist communities need to draw a line and move on with the British Government and vice versa. However, I don't believe saying "sure we are all as bad as each other, nothing to see here" is a good way of doing this - it smears people who lived through unbelievable terror as being exactly equal to infinitely powerful imperialist oppressors, and that is not the case to most observers. More damage is done by not recognizing the past than by recognizing it.

Also - your belief is that it is ludicrous that a member of the UK Government apologize for a crime that was committed when he was 7 is very short sighted. The initial crime was committed 50 years ago yes, but the crime of covering up, smearing the victims and their families, harboring the perpetrators (and in some cases promoting them to head of the army!) has happened every single day since. I believe an apology is the very least a member of that government can do.

downcow · 13-05-2021 5:15pm

trashcan wrote: »

Well, no. You’re proving that you don’t actually get it. I’m not saying the shootings in and of themselves were worse than anything the IRA did. The comparison is not between the deeds. It’s about the fact that Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday were carried out by those who were supposed to be upholding the rule of law, with the full force of the British State behind them. That’s what makes it worse, and newsworthy. Something which you just won’t acknowledge, for whatever reason. And I do understand the point that your “side” feels that no-one cares about their victims, but as I said before, no one was stopping the justice system pursuing those cases in full.

Not true. Many IRA including MLAs have been given assurances that they will not be pursued for creating victims in my community. One public case was three out of the court even though the evidence was there to convict.
So stop pretending this is simple

downcow · 13-05-2021 5:18pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

You found your intent hard to hide in this post didn't you?

I thought my intent was clear. To point out how complex it is and that the killings by the paras were no more savage than the killings by the Uvf and ira

BonnieSituation · 13-05-2021 5:21pm

downcow wrote: »

I thought my intent was clear. To point out how complex it is and that the killings by the paras were no more savage than the killings by the Uvf and ira

They were though.

downcow · 13-05-2021 5:24pm

Hqrry113 wrote: »

What a joke, how could you not realise, you simply don't believe anything until your British heroes stand up in Westminster and say it's true.

Another brainwashed victim of propaganda fed into the Republic during the troubles.

It was the news told me. Not the government.
You just don’t understand who conflicts work.
Each side up here see the other as the main perpetrator and their own as the main victims.

I knew little of the nuances of BM or the facts.
Same as you know little of the nuances or the facts of the mass sectarian murder of Protestants by the Ira. It’s just how it is

Miniegg · 13-05-2021 5:27pm

downcow wrote: »

Not true. Many IRA including MLAs have been given assurances that they will not be pursued for creating victims in my community. One public case was three out of the court even though the evidence was there to convict.
So stop pretending this is simple

Why are the IRA relevant to this discussion? These poor people had absolutely nothing to do with the IRA.

BonnieSituation · 13-05-2021 5:38pm

downcow wrote: »

It was the news told me. Not the government.
You just don’t understand who conflicts work.
Each side up here see the other as the main perpetrator and their own as the main victims.

I knew little of the nuances of BM or the facts.
Same as you know little of the nuances or the facts of the mass sectarian murder of Protestants by the Ira. It’s just how it is

Neither do you.

As a man who constantly exclaimed that he had many Nationalist and/or Catholic friends and lives in an overwhelmingly Nationalist town, it is frightfully ridiculous that you knew nothing about the circumstances or the context of Ballymurphy until Tuesday.

It's frankly ridiculous that you're peddling this.

BonnieSituation · 13-05-2021 5:40pm

Miniegg wrote: »

Why are the IRA relevant to this discussion? These poor people had absolutely nothing to do with the IRA.

The literal outcome of the inquest was this!

And yet the apologists are no where to be seen and those that are here are dancing around on a pin so hard they'll get blisters.

downcow · 13-05-2021 5:47pm

Miniegg wrote: »

Why are the IRA relevant to this discussion? These poor people had absolutely nothing to do with the IRA.

I was replying to a poster who stated that no government had prevented the prosecution of killers of my community, which is clearly nonsense

downcow · 13-05-2021 5:53pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Neither do you.

As a man who constantly exclaimed that he had many Nationalist and/or Catholic friends and lives in an overwhelmingly Nationalist town, it is frightfully ridiculous that you knew nothing about the circumstances or the context of Ballymurphy until Tuesday.

It's frankly ridiculous that you're peddling this.

You might be surprised how the conflict is remembered here differently by each community, but that does not change the fact that it is.
It would not be appropriate on this thread, but I could tell you of endless cases in my community of the most terrible crime torture and murder directed against us. I would only really know about local cases of nationalists meeting horrific deaths and of course prominent cases like Shankill butchers.
So you are just simply wrong.

Here’s the evidence If it helps you.
Do you know of hundreds of Protestants tortured before being murdered by the Ira ? If your answer is no, then my point is proven

BonnieSituation · 13-05-2021 5:57pm

downcow wrote: »

You might be surprised how the conflict is remembered here differently by each community, but that does not change the fact that it is.
It would not be appropriate on this thread, but I could tell you of endless cases in my community of the most terrible crime torture and murder directed against us. I would only really know about local cases of nationalists meeting horrific deaths and of course prominent cases like Shankill butchers.
So you are just simply wrong.

Here’s the evidence If it helps you.
Do you know of hundreds of Protestants tortured before being murdered by the Ira ? If your answer is no, then my point is proven

You're welcome to set up a thread on whatever subject you want.

Why you can't accept the heinous actions of the British Army on people they were ostensibly protecting is beyond me. Its's sick.

Miniegg · 13-05-2021 6:12pm

downcow wrote: »

Not true. Many IRA including MLAs have been given assurances that they will not be pursued for creating victims in my community. One public case was three out of the court even though the evidence was there to convict.
So stop pretending this is simple

downcow wrote: »

I was replying to a poster who stated that no government had prevented the prosecution of killers of my community, which is clearly nonsense

I am sorry to hear that. I hope that the victims in your community receive justice.

The incident at Ballymurphy involved British soldiers shooting 10 innocent British citizens in cold blood, and the British Government covering it up and smearing the victims and their families for over 50 years.

Whether you recognize it or not, since your initial post it looks as though you are tacitly legitimizing the British state murdering it's own citizens in Ballymurphy because the IRA or other groups, who were completely unrelated to the victims, were involved in killings. I do hope I am picking you up wrong.

Junkyard Tom · 13-05-2021 7:13pm

downcow wrote: »

Do you know of hundreds of Protestants tortured before being murdered by the Ira?

The Troubles was bad enough without you making shit up.

Barry904 · 13-05-2021 7:37pm

downcow wrote: »

You might be surprised how the conflict is remembered here differently by each community, but that does not change the fact that it is.
It would not be appropriate on this thread, but I could tell you of endless cases in my community of the most terrible crime torture and murder directed against us. I would only really know about local cases of nationalists meeting horrific deaths and of course prominent cases like Shankill butchers.
So you are just simply wrong.

Here’s the evidence If it helps you.
Do you know of hundreds of Protestants tortured before being murdered by the Ira ? If your answer is no, then my point is proven

Hahahaha "hundred of prostestants torured by the IRA before being murdered" what absolute rubbish and it's very sad you have to resort to complete lies to make some sort of pathetic point.

You know what maybe you didn't make it up I can tell by your posts on here you haven't got a clue about the conflict you are very ill informed.

The provos killed about 1600 people over 1,000 of which were members of the security forces, out of the other 600 some were politicians, prison guards, judges and of course civilians as well.

Very few IRA killings were actually sectarian most of the IRA sectarian killings took place between 74-76 when loyalist went on a rampage of sectarian killings and some IRA members sadly resorted to retaliation.

trashcan · 13-05-2021 7:40pm

downcow wrote: »

Not true. Many IRA including MLAs have been given assurances that they will not be pursued for creating victims in my community. One public case was three out of the court even though the evidence was there to convict.
So stop pretending this is simple

That’s relatively recent though, as in post GFA. In the preceding years there was no impediment to police investigation and prosecution. I’m not pretending anything is simple, but you still can’t bring yourself to acknowledge the difference between the State committing murder, and the IRA doing it, can you ?

Stovepipe · 13-05-2021 8:50pm

Very few IRA killings were actually sectarian most of the IRA sectarian killings took place between 74-76 when loyalist went on a rampage of sectarian killings and some IRA members sadly resorted to retaliation.[/QUOTE]

You are delusional. The IRA campaign against Protestant farmers and their families along the Border was a very real thing and had the function of instilling terror in the Protestant community in general, farmers in particular and to have the side effect of clearing the way for controlling smuggling. Victims were routinely claimed to be RUC or UDR Reserve to justify the killings, to their mind, when many of them were never in or had long retired. Failing that, they were called "touts",none of which was ever proven.

Barry904 · 13-05-2021 9:14pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

Very few IRA killings were actually sectarian most of the IRA sectarian killings took place between 74-76 when loyalist went on a rampage of sectarian killings and some IRA members sadly resorted to retaliation.

Yo

Yes they targetted soldiers and police that were not in uniform,sometimes intelligence was wrong and they had retired.

Does that make the IRA as a whole sectarian?

downcow · 13-05-2021 9:18pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're welcome to set up a thread on whatever subject you want.

Why you can't accept the heinous actions of the British Army on people they were ostensibly protecting is beyond me. Its's sick.

Why are you missing what I have said in several posts. I’ll say it again if that helps.
I accept that the soldiers who killed the BM residents committed a heinous crime.

Is that better?

downcow · 13-05-2021 9:20pm

Miniegg wrote: »

I am sorry to hear that. I hope that the victims in your community receive justice.

The incident at Ballymurphy involved British soldiers shooting 10 innocent British citizens in cold blood, and the British Government covering it up and smearing the victims and their families for over 50 years.

Whether you recognize it or not, since your initial post it looks as though you are tacitly legitimizing the British state murdering it's own citizens in Ballymurphy because the IRA or other groups, who were completely unrelated to the victims, were involved in killings. I do hope I am picking you up wrong.

You are picking me up wrong. The killings in BM were completely wrong.

Barry904 · 13-05-2021 9:23pm

downcow wrote: »

You are picking me up wrong. The killings in BM were completely wrong.

Nothing to say about your false claims of "hundreds of protestants tortured by the IRA before they were murdered"?

Do you really have that little knowledge of the troubles that you believed some Willie Frazer article about "hundreds" of tortured protestants before they were murdered?

I wonder what other crap you believe about the troubles.

downcow · 13-05-2021 9:28pm

Barry904 wrote: »

Hahahaha "hundred of prostestants torured by the IRA before being murdered" what absolute rubbish and it's very sad you have to resort to complete lies to make some sort of pathetic point.

You know what maybe you didn't make it up I can tell by your posts on here you haven't got a clue about the conflict you are very ill informed.

The provos killed about 1600 people over 1,000 of which were members of the security forces, out of the other 600 some were politicians, prison guards, judges and of course civilians as well.

Very few IRA killings were actually sectarian most of the IRA sectarian killings took place between 74-76 when loyalist went on a rampage of sectarian killings and some IRA members sadly resorted to retaliation.

I don’t want to get into this on a thread about the BM killings, but you are demonstrating why many unionists find it difficult to support the likes of the BM enquiry. Republicans like you have buried the reality of what happened in this vicious sectarian conflict. I know of quite a few cases where Protestants were taken away by the Ira and slowly killed over three days. So I take some offence from you ‘hahahaha’ comment.

I’ll leave it at that as this is not what this thread is about.

downcow · 13-05-2021 9:29pm

Barry904 wrote: »

Nothing to say about your false claims of "hundreds of protestants tortured by the IRA before they were murdered"?

Do you really have that little knowledge of the troubles that you believed some Willie Frazer article about "hundreds" of tortured protestants before they were murdered?

I wonder what other crap you believe about the troubles.

Nothing to do with Willie Frazer. I didn’t know he had made such a comment

Barry904 · 13-05-2021 9:57pm

downcow wrote: »

I don’t want to get into this on a thread about the BM killings, but you are demonstrating why many unionists find it difficult to support the likes of the BM enquiry. Republicans like you have buried the reality of what happened in this vicious sectarian conflict. I know of quite a few cases where Protestants were taken away by the Ira and slowly killed over three days. So I take some offence from you ‘hahahaha’ comment.

I’ll leave it at that as this is not what this thread is about.

"I know of quite a few cases" a few posts ago you were saying you knew of "hundreds". Any evidence to these claims? I seen you were asking other posters for evidence of claims that are common knowledge so surely you won't mind provoding evidence for this, I'm not saying there isn't one or two cases (although I doubt it)but I've personally never heard of any.

You say now that you are on the defensive about your rubbish claims that you don't want to get into this on a thread about BM killing yet you're the one who brought it up in the first place!!!

You are unbelievable, the hahaha was me laughing at how idiotic your false claim was and you say now that you take offence to it? Is this some sort of wind up?

downcow · 13-05-2021 11:08pm

Barry904 wrote: »

"I know of quite a few cases" a few posts ago you were saying you knew of "hundreds". Any evidence to these claims? I seen you were asking other posters for evidence of claims that are common knowledge so surely you won't mind provoding evidence for this, I'm not saying there isn't one or two cases (although I doubt it)but I've personally never heard of any.

You say now that you are on the defensive about your rubbish claims that you don't want to get into this on a thread about BM killing yet you're the one who brought it up in the first place!!!

You are unbelievable, the hahaha was me laughing at how idiotic your false claim was and you say now that you take offence to it? Is this some sort of wind up?

How would you take it if I said hahaha about victims of the British army.?

I am happy to give you examples but I could predict I will be the one that is sanctioned for taking it off thread.
Open a thread on the ira torture and I’ll gladly filll it for you

lawred2 · 13-05-2021 11:10pm

downcow wrote: »

How would you take it if I said hahaha about victims of the British army.?

I am happy to give you examples but I could predict I will be the one that is sanctioned for taking it off thread.
Open a thread on the ira torture and I’ll gladly filll it for you

Open it yourself. You're only itching to do so. Fill your boots.

Barry904 · 13-05-2021 11:10pm

downcow wrote: »

How would you take it if I said hahaha about victims of the British army.?

I am happy to give you examples but I could predict I will be the one that is sanctioned for taking it off thread.
Open a thread on the ira torture and I’ll gladly filll it for you

You're on the wind up I'm not going to converse with you any further while you try to put me on the defensive, everyone can see the last few posts and see how you have made yourself look an absolute fool.

downcow · 13-05-2021 11:21pm

Barry904 wrote: »

You're on the wind up I'm not going to converse with you any further while you try to put me on the defensive, everyone can see the last few posts and see how you have made yourself look an absolute fool.

Says the guy who has never heard that the ira tortured many of their victims (and the (Uvf)

Barry904 · 13-05-2021 11:33pm

downcow wrote: »

Says the guy who has never heard that the ira tortured many of their victims (and the (Uvf)

So you have taken back your claim that the IRA tortured "hundreds" of protestants before they killed them?

I just googled IRA torture, not much articles about IRA torture apart from a few informers and a British soldier.... All of which were catholics not protestants.

I'm glad we are making progress downcow and we are clearing up many of your misconceptions about the IRA.

JP Liz V1 · 14-05-2021 12:20am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Shocking that the families of the victims had to wait this long to have their names cleared.

40 years to wait

I hope it it some comfort closure justice and relief for the victims (RIP) families

Fionn1952 · 14-05-2021 9:37am

Every thread, no matter how inappropriate, you can always count on good ol' Downcow to land in with a, 'but whatabout the IRA', accompanied by some anecdotes that are totally irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Have a bit of decorum for Christ sake, the IRA are completely irrelevant to the innocent victims of the Ballymurphy Massacre and their families' long wait for vindication, though justice isn't likely.

volchitsa · 14-05-2021 9:41am

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Every thread, no matter how inappropriate, you can always count on good ol' Downcow to land in with a, 'but whatabout the IRA', accompanied by some anecdotes that are totally irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Have a bit of decorum for Christ sake, the IRA are completely irrelevant to the innocent victims of the Ballymurphy Massacre and their families' long wait for vindication, though justice isn't likely.

This. It's disgusting to see posters (well, one, TBF) still trying to conflate the Bally murphy victims with the IRA. They were completely innocent victims, and the men who murdered them knew that.

political analyst · 14-05-2021 11:59am

It was the policy of internment that led to the horror that took place in Ballymurphy in August 1971.

Which government was calling the shots on that policy - Whitehall or Stormont?

Given that Stormont was a devolved government, Whitehall could have refused to do what Brian Faulkner wanted, couldn't it?

Barry904 · 14-05-2021 12:56pm

political analyst wrote: »

It was the policy of internment that led to the horror that took place in Ballymurphy in August 1971.

Which government was calling the shots on that policy - Whitehall or Stormont?

Given that Stormont was a devolved government, Whitehall could have refused to do what Brian Faulkner wanted, couldn't it?

They had to run it by Westminster and get approval for any major action like that

downcow · 14-05-2021 9:17pm

volchitsa wrote: »

This. It's disgusting to see posters (well, one, TBF) still trying to conflate the Bally murphy victims with the IRA. They were completely innocent victims, and the men who murdered them knew that.

I hadn’t seen any posts conflating the BM victims with the IRA. Could you post an example. I thought everyone on here was agreed they were innocent.

downcow · 14-05-2021 9:21pm

Barry904 wrote: »

So you have taken back your claim that the IRA tortured "hundreds" of protestants before they killed them?

I just googled IRA torture, not much articles about IRA torture apart from a few informers and a British soldier.... All of which were catholics not protestants.

I'm glad we are making progress downcow and we are clearing up many of your misconceptions about the IRA.

I don’t know if you are on a wind up or not. I could give you examples of cases where I unfortunately know too many details of what the IRA done to their Protestant (and catholic) victims before they killed them, but this really is not the thread to do it and it would be inappropriate to name the victims out of respect to their families.

You seem to be living in some alternative universe where the ira were honourable and treated their prisoners with respect. Are you for real?

lawred2 · 14-05-2021 9:21pm

downcow wrote: »

I hadn’t seen any posts conflating the BM victims with the IRA. Could you post an example. I thought everyone on here was agreed they were innocent.

ah here

is this a sport for you?

Barry904 · 14-05-2021 10:23pm

downcow wrote: »

I don’t know if you are on a wind up or not. I could give you examples of cases where I unfortunately know too many details of what the IRA done to their Protestant (and catholic) victims before they killed them, but this really is not the thread to do it and it would be inappropriate to name the victims out of respect to their families.

You seem to be living in some alternative universe where the ira were honourable and treated their prisoners with respect. Are you for real?

You say you don't want to get into this on this thread but you're the one who brought it up!

You only don't want to get into it because I asked for evidence of your claims of "hundreds of protestants tortured by the IRA before they were murdered" you can't provide any evidence because it was a blatant lie and now your last resort is some crap about the moral highground.

15-05-2021 12:20am

It's weird for me if it is your own country that you send armies to kill people

BonnieSituation · 15-05-2021 12:22am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's weird for me if it is your own country that you send armies to kill people

Right?

Fann Linn · 15-05-2021 12:48am

'Ballymurphy situation' is how our Taoiseach is describing this according to accounts on Twitter. Is he ashamed or afraid to use the word 'massacre'.

celt262 · 15-05-2021 12:51am

Fann Linn wrote: »

'Ballymurphy situation' is how our Taoiseach is describing this according to accounts on Twitter. Is he ashamed or afraid to use the word 'massacre'.

He used to be "Brits out" until he went on a trip to Belfast God knows he wouldn't want to offend anyone.

BonnieSituation · 15-05-2021 12:54am

Fann Linn wrote: »

'Ballymurphy situation' is how our Taoiseach is describing this according to accounts on Twitter. Is he ashamed or afraid to use the word 'massacre'.

Did he actually say that?

That's absolutely disgraceful.

Fann Linn · 15-05-2021 12:58am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Did he actually say that?

That's absolutely disgraceful.

Heard it myself him giving his speech 'We actually had a good discussion on the Ballymurphy situation..

The video is on Twitter.

BonnieSituation · 15-05-2021 1:19am

Fann Linn wrote: »

Heard it myself him giving his speech 'We actually had a good discussion on the Ballymurphy situation..

The video is on Twitter.

Yup. Just saw it.

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1393270597057236992?s=19

So, not only does he call it that twice, why the hell is the Taoiseach telling us about Boris Johnson's understanding of the situation... shouldn't we have Boris telling us?

Another proxy explanation from Mícheal, much like the proxy apology from the FM/dFM on Tuesday.

Barry904 · 15-05-2021 1:41am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Yup. Just saw it.

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1393270597057236992?s=19

So, not only does he call it that twice, why the hell is the Taoiseach telling us about Boris Johnson's understanding of the situation... shouldn't we have Boris telling us?

Another proxy explanation from Mícheal, much like the proxy apology from the FM/dFM on Tuesday.

MI5/MI6 had thoroughly infiltrated Irish politics during the troubles they probably still have strong influence, not like they were all on MI5 payroll or anything like that (although maybe some of them were) more sort of like pulling their strings without them even realising it.

Ballymurphy massacre

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