Ballymurphy massacre

downcow wrote: »

Believe it or not I completely understand your point of view, and I get. Most nationalists see the killings by the British Army (which were extremely small in number compared to terrorism) as somehow worse than the killing of e.g. border Protestants by the IRA or the killing of Catholics by the Shankill butchers.
Most Unionists I know, see it entirely differently. I have really tried to avoid comparing atrocities, but since a number of posts are now doing it, I feel I need to point out that if you start making comparisons, Unionists will inevitably see it as even worse, when isolated rural Protestants spent every hour of the day worrying that an IRA terrorist was going to lie in wait outside their home and shoot them in the back when they were taking their kids to school.

I was actually horrified by the BM massacre as it was told on the news last night. I was not aware how innocent those people were and I completely absolutely condemn the indiscriminate killing of them. There was no excuse.

Downcow I hope I am picking you up wrong but reading your posts it appears that your input on this thread is purely to say that what happened in Ballymurphy was "wrong" whilst tacitly legitimizing it because "look at what the IRA did". Why else mention them? The IRA has absolutely nothing to do with Ballymurphy, the people who were murdered had absolutely nothing to do with the IRA.

Also it is wise not to compare atrocities, given that the 'native' Irish had Cromwell, the Plantations, the Penal Laws, indentured servitude, the mass starvation of the Famine (when the country was full of food), the use of poor Irish people as cannon fodder in countless British wars, the attempted extinction of Gaelic language and culture, the execution of 1916 revolutionaries, the Black and Tans, the burning of Cork, the murder of innocent players and spectators at Croke Park, partition, Derry Bloody Sunday, UK state collusion with loyalist death squads and countless others inflicted on them by the British state.

Maybe you don't see, agree or believe this, but for Irish nationalists the Ballymurphy massacre is one more in a long line of atrocities inflicted on their communities down the years by the British state and their proxys.

A simple "sorry for your troubles" and move on might serve you a bit better in future.

blueskys wrote: »

What some people seem to forget is that the movement for civil rights in the north was a peaceful movement and the IRA was basically non existent at the time they started up. If the Unionist Govt at the time engaged in any meaningful way with the civil rights movement then we wouldn't have had 'the troubles' or the birth of the Provos. Instead Civil Rights marchers were shot, beaten and attacked with sticks with nails in them whilst the 'Police' actively looked on.

You can apply that to British interventions everywhere. The rise of Irish nationalism is pocked with bad treatment. It's beyond me how they keep doing the same thing and end up surprised at the results.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So basically you are saying eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. Isn't that marvelous. Thankfully there were men like Hume who did not think like that.
History has proven him right.

Somehow you are saying that this poster describing the position that Irish nationalists in NI were in is tantamount to him declaring the same treatment upon the British?

I agree with you that Nationalist communities need to draw a line and move on with the British Government and vice versa. However, I don't believe saying "sure we are all as bad as each other, nothing to see here" is a good way of doing this - it smears people who lived through unbelievable terror as being exactly equal to infinitely powerful imperialist oppressors, and that is not the case to most observers. More damage is done by not recognizing the past than by recognizing it. 

Also - your belief is that it is ludicrous that a member of the UK Government apologize for a crime that was committed when he was 7 is very short sighted. The initial crime was committed 50 years ago yes, but the crime of covering up, smearing the victims and their families, harboring the perpetrators (and in some cases promoting them to head of the army!) has happened every single day since. I believe an apology is the very least a member of that government can do.

steddyeddy wrote: »

You found your intent hard to hide in this post didn't you?

I thought my intent was clear. To point out how complex it is and that the killings by the paras were no more savage than the killings by the Uvf and ira

Hqrry113 wrote: »

What a joke, how could you not realise, you simply don't believe anything until your British heroes stand up in Westminster and say it's true.

Another brainwashed victim of propaganda fed into the Republic during the troubles.

It was the news told me. Not the government.
You just don’t understand who conflicts work.
Each side up here see the other as the main perpetrator and their own as the main victims.

I knew little of the nuances of BM or the facts.
Same as you know little of the nuances or the facts of the mass sectarian murder of Protestants by the Ira. It’s just how it is

downcow wrote: »

It was the news told me. Not the government.
You just don’t understand who conflicts work.
Each side up here see the other as the main perpetrator and their own as the main victims.

I knew little of the nuances of BM or the facts.
Same as you know little of the nuances or the facts of the mass sectarian murder of Protestants by the Ira. It’s just how it is

Neither do you.

As a man who constantly exclaimed that he had many Nationalist and/or Catholic friends and lives in an overwhelmingly Nationalist town, it is frightfully ridiculous that you knew nothing about the circumstances or the context of Ballymurphy until Tuesday.

It's frankly ridiculous that you're peddling this.

Miniegg wrote: »

Why are the IRA relevant to this discussion? These poor people had absolutely nothing to do with the IRA.

I was replying to a poster who stated that no government had prevented the prosecution of killers of my community, which is clearly nonsense

downcow wrote: »

You might be surprised how the conflict is remembered here differently by each community, but that does not change the fact that it is.
It would not be appropriate on this thread, but I could tell you of endless cases in my community of the most terrible crime torture and murder directed against us. I would only really know about local cases of nationalists meeting horrific deaths and of course prominent cases like Shankill butchers.
So you are just simply wrong.

Here’s the evidence If it helps you.
Do you know of hundreds of Protestants tortured before being murdered by the Ira ? If your answer is no, then my point is proven

You're welcome to set up a thread on whatever subject you want.

Why you can't accept the heinous actions of the British Army on people they were ostensibly protecting is beyond me. Its's sick.

downcow wrote: »

Do you know of hundreds of Protestants tortured before being murdered by the Ira?

The Troubles was bad enough without you making shit up.

downcow wrote: »

Not true. Many IRA including MLAs have been given assurances that they will not be pursued for creating victims in my community. One public case was three out of the court even though the evidence was there to convict.
So stop pretending this is simple

That’s relatively recent though, as in post GFA. In the preceding years there was no impediment to police investigation and prosecution. I’m not pretending anything is simple, but you still can’t bring yourself to acknowledge the difference between the State committing murder, and the IRA doing it, can you ?

Miniegg wrote: »

I am sorry to hear that. I hope that the victims in your community receive justice.

The incident at Ballymurphy involved British soldiers shooting 10 innocent British citizens in cold blood, and the British Government covering it up and smearing the victims and their families for over 50 years.

Whether you recognize it or not, since your initial post it looks as though you are tacitly legitimizing the British state murdering it's own citizens in Ballymurphy because the IRA or other groups, who were completely unrelated to the victims, were involved in killings. I do hope I am picking you up wrong.

You are picking me up wrong. The killings in BM were completely wrong.

Barry904 wrote: »

Hahahaha "hundred of prostestants torured by the IRA before being murdered" what absolute rubbish and it's very sad you have to resort to complete lies to make some sort of pathetic point.

You know what maybe you didn't make it up I can tell by your posts on here you haven't got a clue about the conflict you are very ill informed.

The provos killed about 1600 people over 1,000 of which were members of the security forces, out of the other 600 some were politicians, prison guards, judges and of course civilians as well.

Very few IRA killings were actually sectarian most of the IRA sectarian killings took place between 74-76 when loyalist went on a rampage of sectarian killings and some IRA members sadly resorted to retaliation.

I don’t want to get into this on a thread about the BM killings, but you are demonstrating why many unionists find it difficult to support the likes of the BM enquiry. Republicans like you have buried the reality of what happened in this vicious sectarian conflict. I know of quite a few cases where Protestants were taken away by the Ira and slowly killed over three days. So I take some offence from you ‘hahahaha’ comment.

I’ll leave it at that as this is not what this thread is about.

downcow wrote: »

How would you take it if I said hahaha about victims of the British army.?

I am happy to give you examples but I could predict I will be the one that is sanctioned for taking it off thread.
Open a thread on the ira torture and I’ll gladly filll it for you

Open it yourself. You're only itching to do so. Fill your boots.