Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Anti-vaxxers

Options
1…185186188190191…199

Comments

  • Options
    #5612
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,104 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I don't think the comparison is valid. As you've said, science changes and evolves over time based on facts and evidence.

    People latching onto unaccountable cranks and acting as vectors for their nonsense. At least the science has the data to back it up.
    Science also welcomes being challenged and questioned.


  • Options
    #5613
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,284 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Indeed, but my point was it makes neither of them immune to virtue signalling and smugness. Plus science gets it wrong all the time. It gets things wrong or half right, realises this at some point and changes tack and gets things right, or less wrong. It's a feature, nay the killer app of science. It evolves in response to new theories and evidence and questions, though is often a prisoner of culture and the market.

    one of them is based on the best information we have, the other is based on made up nonsense. Pick a side.


  • Options
    #5614
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,799 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Science also welcomes being challenged and questioned.

    This is the huge one. I've been working in research for a decade now and scientists are always up for debate, hence the various talks, conferences, meetings and such.

    Contrast that to the anti-vaxx cult nonsense where the well is instantly poisoned and the victim complex is quickly trotted out.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Options
    #5615
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Brian? wrote: »
    I think you should look up the definition of Orwellian while you're there horse.

    im grand, the main lack of foresight by Orwell was not anticipating the boot on the neck being delivered by the private sector.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Options
    #5616
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,109 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I don't think the comparison is valid.
    No, but my point was both camps are just as guilty of virtue signalling.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #5617
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,799 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Wibbs wrote: »
    No, but my point was both camps are just as guilty of virtue signalling.

    I'm gong to disagree there. It can certainly happen but I think that covid is a special case for obvious reasons and, as such having an elderly relative get the vaccine means you can now visit them in person which to many will be a huge relief.

    There just isn't really the same impetus to share a pic of you getting a flu shot on social media.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Options
    #5618
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    How do you feel about people who refuse to wear masks using the "my body my choice" argument, do you think it's valid?

    Do you think people have a right to refuse to wear masks?

    I think it was the wrong hill to die on at he start because there were so many unknowns. As of today if people say they will stop wearing them after the summer I think that would be a reasonable. It would be the government not following the science at that stage

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Options
    #5619
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,284 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Wibbs wrote: »
    No, but my point was both camps are just as guilty of virtue signalling.

    I'll take a bit of virtue signalling over promoting dangerous health advice.


  • Options
    #5620
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,109 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    So the argument is invalid in that case. An individual isn't entitled to refuse to wear a mask because "my body my choice".
    The argument remains entirely valid. "My body my choice" so long as it doesn't affect the bodies and choice of others. So if you don't want to wear a mask that's fine, however you can't be around the rest of society while you exercise that right.
    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Science also welcomes being challenged and questioned.
    It does and it doesn't Seth. It can be quite the status quo field and can be heavily influenced by the market and culture. Look how long it took the antibiotic treatment for stomach ulcers to gain traction. Medical science in particular can be remarkably conservative. It can also be err to really dubious studies. A few years back one of the editors of the Lancet wrote an editorial about how so many studies were highly suspect and how this was a major concern.
    silverharp wrote: »
    im grand, the main lack of foresight by Orwell was not anticipating the boot on the neck being delivered by the private sector.
    Actually one could argue Orwell's biggest oversight was not factoring in how many everyday people would actively seek out invasion of privacy and handing over control to corporate entities in return for remarkably little. That the average person is happy with as routine and "safe" a life as possible, with enough attention to keep them happy and a constant dopamine hit of the novel, that they'll happily give up the wider power to anyone who will take it. It should be obvious from history of course. If a population don't actually want something it doesn't last long.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Options
    #5621
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,805 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Wibbs wrote: »
    The argument remains entirely valid. "My body my choice" so long as it doesn't affect the bodies and choice of others.

    And that's the important caveat.

    So if someone has unvaccinated children, and they send them to school, they could be affecting the bodies and choice of others (including your children)

    In fact, if someone decided not to vaccinate against Covid, couldn't the same be said?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #5622
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,109 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    And that's the important caveat.

    So if someone has unvaccinated children, and they send them to school, they could be affecting the bodies and choice of others (including your children)

    In fact, if someone decided not to vaccinate against Covid, couldn't the same be said?
    I hate to break it to you, but I'm not anti vaccination. Very much the opposite in fact and will take the vaccine when it comes around to me. Though it seems to even question anything around it marks one out as being somehow in league with antivaxxers. That level of black and white reactive ballsology I can well do without.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Options
    #5623
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    silverharp wrote: »
    I think it was the wrong hill to die on at he start because there were so many unknowns. As of today if people say they will stop wearing them after the summer I think that would be a reasonable. It would be the government not following the science at that stage

    Well, it's pretty likely we will be wearing them until the end of the year. Between questions over how long immunity will last and taking some degree of precautions, it's likely that they will require masks until the end of the year as we're entering flu season. Mask mandates might be shorter in the US but they're far ahead of the globe vaccine wise.


  • Options
    #5624
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,805 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I hate to break it to you, but I'm not anti vaccination. Very much the opposite in fact and will take the vaccine when it comes around to me. Though it seems to even question anything around it marks one out as being somehow in league with antivaxxers. That level of black and white reactive ballsology I can well do without.

    Not accusing you of such, at all.

    I am pointing out, in general, that the "my body my choice" line has issues and caveats.


  • Options
    #5625
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I hate to break it to you, but I'm not anti vaccination. Very much the opposite in fact and will take the vaccine when it comes around to me. Though it seems to even question anything around it marks one out as being somehow in league with antivaxxers. That level of black and white reactive ballsology I can well do without.

    I think this is my first day posting in this thread, and im thinking wow hostile crowd :pac:

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Options
    #5626
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,104 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    silverharp wrote: »
    I think this is my first day posting in this thread, and im thinking wow hostile crowd :pac:
    You started posting in the thread last week
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117065315&postcount=5464


  • Options
    #5627
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well, it's pretty likely we will be wearing them until the end of the year. Between questions over how long immunity will last and taking some degree of precautions, it's likely that they will require masks until the end of the year as we're entering flu season. Mask mandates might be shorter in the US but they're far ahead of the globe vaccine wise.

    my wife listen's to Drosten's podcasts (he is the well know German virologist), his view of the virus is that it will be endemic and everyone will be exposed to it over the next year or 2. In light of that kind of information I am not sure what purpose a general mask mandate would be. it will be revolving booster shots and if people dont get the vaccine they will catch it

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Options
    #5628
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    You started posting in the thread last week
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117065315&postcount=5464

    no memory Im afriad

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Options
    #5629
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    And do you disagree that they should have a choice of whether or not they get a vaccine or does it only apply to abortions?

    Hypocrisy on both sides as far as i can see.

    <tongue in cheek>
    It is nice to see the people who badly lost the abortion referendum - due to lack of any actual arguments - are still bitter about it. :P
    </tongue in cheek>

    But I really think that the "my body, my choice" slogan only works in a situation where your body and yours alone is affected. Which is why it was so good to use in the abortion referendum because the pregnant woman was a person - the fetus was not. The slogan was used not just to explicitly point out it was a bodily autonomy issue - but more importantly it was her body and hers _alone_ that was in question. No one else involved.

    But "my body my choice" only goes so far. Try walking up and down the main city street in the capital stark naked sometime and see how quickly the police inform you of just how much "your body" is "your choice" in any society :)

    I am all for personal freedoms - but I know they have limits too. So I think I would have to hear the arguments behind the slogans on this matter before I know which was to opinionate on it. Other than feeling personal freedoms are being impinged upon - what are the actual straight up arguments against mandatory nationwide vaccinations on certain classes (rather than all) of vaccine?

    But there is no hypocrisy in recognizing when a slogan actually does fit Situation A but not Situation B. Abortion is not comparable to discussions on vaccines as it is not just you and yourself that is affected by such choices. But the people you and yours might infect - or perhaps even the entire society as a whole if the threshold for herd immunity is not met and so everyone who did take the injection - and everyone who paid for it - have had their choice removed by invalidating it.


  • Options
    #5630
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    JustAThought wrote: »
    changes in menstration cycles now being reported by 20,000 women post covid vaccine.

    That is not what the link says. It says that one person started a survey that received 22,000 responses. What those responses said is not mentioned in your link. For all you know 21,999 of those responses reported no effect. So claiming that "20,000 women" have reported changes is simply not an accurate summary of your own link. You did read the link past the headline right??? :confused:

    Worse the survey itself is too general to read too much into it straight up. For example the survey includes people who had Covid as well as those who did not and those who are not sure. So any real effects on menstruation - rather than just imagined or placebo effects - would be difficult to assign to the cure rather than the disease too.

    This is a self reporting survey of course which is far from the highest standard of scientific rigor. For example there is an option to the question "have you had covid" that is simply "No". Actually - many people who have had it don't even know they had it. Are these results to be checked for antibodies to confirm??? If not - that is far from science my friend.

    One big issue with anecdote - which is all this actually is - is that such changes in menstruation happen all the time. But people sometimes do not notice - notice but do not think about it - or do not care. But suddenly when someone on twitter is scare mongering some narrative that the injection is causing such effects - the anecdotes suddenly have a "me too" effect. This effect was - and to an extent still is - the reason the autism nonsense around MMR caught on briefly.

    Other things in your link are just as telling. The system in the US for reporting side effects recorded a mere 323 menstrual event anecdotes while the Canadian one a big fat zero.

    None of this is to say that a vaccine would _not_ cause menstrual events or changes however. The whole point of a vaccine is to stimulate an immune response in your body. The uterus lining is part of the immune system. A response there is not a surprise really. Or a problem. Or something we need to worry / care about generally. If anyone in your life experiences (or thinks they are experiencing) such after an injection then reassure them emotionally that this is nothing too bad rather than collage anecdotes to scare monger - keep an eye on the situation - and have them report to a GP if you think any individual situation is getting out of hand.

    JustAThought wrote: »
    Oddly early MeNOPAUSE for children aged 13 & 14 was one of the horrifying ‘side effects’ (allegedly) for previously healthy Irish girls who took the gardasil HPV vaccine.

    Citations needed.
    JustAThought wrote: »
    The scientists and professors quoted in this canadian report are well qualified experts and detail some frightening omissions in the trails.

    Here you are less off with your summary. You still put an unwarranted spin of scare mongering on it with words like "frightening omissions". But certainly the one useful and good thing about your article - certainly better than their PC need to call women "menstruating individuals" :) - is that they are reporting something many of us have known a long time. That clinical trials are not always complete and do not always encompass every large subgroup of society. Sometimes this is oversight. Sometimes laziness. Sometimes funding and sheer logistics of the thing.

    But I would hope these things are getting better. As we become a more and more global society in terms of drug trials - I would hope our motivation tracks with our ability on have wider and more comprehensive studies and trials on drugs.


  • Options
    #5631
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Deleted User wrote: »
    <tongue in cheek>
    It is nice to see the people who badly lost the abortion referendum - due to lack of any actual arguments - are still bitter about it. :P
    </tongue in cheek>

    But I really think that the "my body, my choice" slogan only works in a situation where your body and yours alone is affected. Which is why it was so good to use in the abortion referendum because the pregnant woman was a person - the fetus was not. The slogan was used not just to explicitly point out it was a bodily autonomy issue - but more importantly it was her body and hers _alone_ that was in question. No one else involved.

    But "my body my choice" only goes so far. Try walking up and down the main city street in the capital stark naked sometime and see how quickly the police inform you of just how much "your body" is "your choice" in any society :)

    I am all for personal freedoms - but I know they have limits too. So I think I would have to hear the arguments behind the slogans on this matter before I know which was to opinionate on it. Other than feeling personal freedoms are being impinged upon - what are the actual straight up arguments against mandatory nationwide vaccinations on certain classes (rather than all) of vaccine?

    But there is no hypocrisy in recognizing when a slogan actually does fit Situation A but not Situation B. Abortion is not comparable to discussions on vaccines as it is not just you and yourself that is affected by such choices. But the people you and yours might infect - or perhaps even the entire society as a whole if the threshold for herd immunity is not met and so everyone who did take the injection - and everyone who paid for it - have had their choice removed by invalidating it.

    Obesity could be shoe horned in there, its not just a personal choice any more , it has public health consequences for everyone else and in particular with this virus?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #5632
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,799 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    silverharp wrote: »
    Obesity could be shoe horned in there, its not just a personal choice any more , it has public health consequences for everyone else and in particular with this virus?

    No, it can't. You can't give obesity to someone.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Options
    #5633
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    No, it can't. You can't give obesity to someone.

    way to read my post. Its clear from corona that had there been less obesity there would be less hospital admissions and deaths, and risking other people in the process

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Options
    #5634
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    silverharp wrote: »
    Obesity could be shoe horned in there, its not just a personal choice any more , it has public health consequences for everyone else and in particular with this virus?

    This one I know a lot less about myself so I would find it hard to comment.

    I know when someone asked why smoking was not outright banned because of it being a public health concern and a financial draw on our medical system - they were roundly lambasted. Responses seemed to think it was very simplistic to claim "If you remove this issue - it would save us all a lot of money and resources". In fact they claimed the opposite - that it would leave our medical system reeling for finances if Tobacco taxes were no longer a revenue stream.

    But I guess it comes down to not what issues you address - or what products you ban - but more to how you go about doing it. And certainly Obesity does seem to be a cause of - predictor of - or cause an exacerbation of - many conditions.

    So certainly interested in that discussion. Wary of derailing this thread having it though :)


  • Options
    #5635
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,799 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    silverharp wrote: »
    way to read my post. Its clear from corona that had there been less obesity there would be less hospital admissions and deaths, and risking other people in the process

    It's a ridiculous comparison. I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is, if any unless it's just whataboutery.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Options
    #5636
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,102 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    silverharp wrote: »
    Obesity could be shoe horned in there, its not just a personal choice any more , it has public health consequences for everyone else and in particular with this virus?

    If you think obesity is a personal choice, you'd be wrong, it's not that simple.

    Have a look at the work of Dr. Stephen O'Rahilly at Cambridge for a good understandings of the mechanisms that impact obesity.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMjS_X5Hk7Y


  • Options
    #5637
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,274 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    silverharp wrote: »
    my wife listen's to Drosten's podcasts (he is the well know German virologist), his view of the virus is that it will be endemic and everyone will be exposed to it over the next year or 2.

    But even if he is a "well known" (but you still needed to explain who he is) German virologist, he's still just one guy. The opinion of one guy is not how science works.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Options
    #5638
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,274 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    silverharp wrote: »
    My body my choice.

    My body, my right to not have other people infect me. Especially health care workers who have no possible medical reason to not take a vaccine but refuse to do so. Uptake of the flu vaccine among HCWs has been depressingly low for years and that is not, imho, acceptable.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Options
    #5639
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,456 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    silverharp wrote: »
    way to read my post. Its clear from corona that had there been less obesity there would be less hospital admissions and deaths, and risking other people in the process

    The same could be said about diabetes or heart disease.


  • Options
    #5640
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    The same could be said about diabetes or heart disease.


    Or CF or COPD or asthma or any number of other comorbidities, you know what i think weve figured out how to stop this covid thing in its tracks..... stop everyone from being just sick at all.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #5641
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,790 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Romanian lad in work to me...

    "Did you get the vaccine?"

    "Yep"

    Him laughing "man you're crazy. You know they have your DNA now. They took your DNA from the needle"

    "I watched them throw it in those yellow sealed bins"

    "No...when you leave, they take it back out and they get your DNA. That's how they caught Bin Laden. They did a mass vaccination for polio then got a DNA match for his kids then followed them home to his house"

    "Surely they'd have checked the register for the same surname"

    *Silence*


    "Ah you're in big trouble now they have your DNA".


    I watched the girl who vaccinated me do another 3 or 4 people after me. It was an open cubicle and I sat close to it for 15 minutes after getting my jab. At no stage did she take any needles from the bin.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement