Dublin - BusConnects

LXFlyer · 03-05-2021 3:13pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, I should have said the approach to ticketing and the operating model of Dublin Bus, rather then specifically the "stage fare system".

Though I will say that no one but bus drivers actually understand the stage fare system and I've found some bus drivers to not even really know it. So from the ease of use perspective it is broken.

The mistake really stems from the decision by Dublin Bus in the 80's when they got rid of conductors and decided to get rid of dual door buses and instead go for single door buses, with drivers selling tickets and making sure people pay.

This entire operating model has proven to be a disaster and even a major step back from when we had conductors.

Instead at the time they should have gone with the mainland European model. Off bus ticketing, enter via any door, validate ticket onboard, inspectors.

Basically like how the Luas works. You didn't even need technology for this, just a print date/time on a paper ticket like happened in the past.

You could have even kept the same fare system, it would have had no impact on revenue (other then needing to pay for inspectors).

The mistake, which happens with a lot of government IT projects around the world, is layering technology on top of an already broken manual process and think that will fix it. It rarely does, you normally also need to fix the underlying issues first or at least at the same time.

This really isn't rocket science, this is very much a solved problem.

Btw the fairest system I've ever used is in Amsterdam, you pay per km travelled. Tag on at the start of the journey, tag off at the end and the ticket machine works out the distance travelled via GPS and thus how much you pay.

You can also transfer between bus/tram/metro and it works out the distance, with a slightly higher per km fare for Metro versus bus.

Nice, easy system that is very fair and works well.

Sigh, it has taken us so long to fix the mistakes made in the 80's.

Your dates are a little bit off :-)

While the rollout of driver only double deck buses started in the late 1980s, single door buses only appeared in 2000 with the AV fleet.

As to the staged fares, it really didn't help that some genius removed the physical stage markings from bus stops some time back, and that simple line diagrams showing the fares from stops were all discontinued.

Again it boils down to how the system is explained. It really isn't that complicated, but it has been made to be.

The lack of proper maps since 2010 is utterly bizarre, and personally speaking when I heard the NTA as part of their rationale for BusConnects saying the network was difficult to understand, I couldn't help wondering that the lack of maps at stops and a network map didn't exactly help in that regard, despite having been in place before.

Again - it is another example of getting the detail wrong having a negative impact.

Geuze · 03-05-2021 7:30pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The lack of proper maps since 2010 is utterly bizarre, and personally speaking when I heard the NTA as part of their rationale for BusConnects saying the network was difficult to understand, I couldn't help wondering that the lack of maps at stops and a network map didn't exactly help in that regard, despite having been in place before.

Dublin is brutal for bus network maps.

Every bus stop should have a map.

I accept that the volume of routes means a map may be cluttered.

But I'm sure there are ways around that.

The London spider maps are useful.

Geuze · 03-05-2021 7:34pm

The TFL website has a menu item: Maps.

The TFI does not.

OK, fair enough, under Getting Around, there are Network maps.

And they are better than they used to be, okay.

But still no Dublin bus map.

I have been going on and on about this for 20 years.

Zebra3 · 03-05-2021 7:38pm

BK.

I'm not gonna quote your long post, but just a few points....

With an honour based system of paying, you need to have a fairly middle class clientele. That was not Dublin (or Ireland) in the 80 or even for a fair bit of the 90s. People would've gamed the system as they had very little disposable income.

The system works well in some mainland European countries because it's drilled in to kids in schools that it's what you do, and because people carry ID cards and getting away with it seems very risky. (Is civics classes still a thing in schools?).

I'm all for bringing best practices from abroad in to Ireland at all levels of society, but we need to be realistic about what will and won't/wouldn't have work(ed).

bk · 03-05-2021 8:10pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

With an honour based system of paying, you need to have a fairly middle class clientele. That was not Dublin (or Ireland) in the 80 or even for a fair bit of the 90s. People would've gamed the system as they had very little disposable income.

The system works well in some mainland European countries because it's drilled in to kids in schools that it's what you do, and because people carry ID cards and getting away with it seems very risky. (Is civics classes still a thing in schools?).

LOL and Eastern Europe and the other countries behind the iron curtain was and are so rich? :rolleyes:

Having spent a lot of time in Eastern Europe, I can tell you that fare evasion is rampant there. But they also have a lot of ticket checkers and if you get caught, a big fine, the fines seem to be enough to pay for the ticket checkers and enough to keep most people "honest" even though they have feck all money and seem to cover the fares from the people they don't catch.

Middle class clientele, what a load of nonsense!

And it isn't like Dublin Buses obsession with a poor fare system worked, the system was ripe with fare evasion. How many people had fake free travel passes getting on the bus.

How many people just get the cheapest fare or a childs fare (as an adult) and travel as far as they want today.

In the end, those who aren't going to pay, aren't going to pay, while that pisses me off greatly, the mistake DB made was being stupidly obsessed with it and creating a really poor service for all their customers, rather then focusing on and prioritising the needs of their actual honest fare paying customers.

Zebra3 · 03-05-2021 8:34pm

Wow. "LOL". Fair play for being being so disgustingly patronising. :rolleyes: A real charmer.

And therein ends my discussions with you.

LXFlyer · 03-05-2021 8:54pm

Geuze wrote: »

The TFL website has a menu item: Maps.

The TFI does not.

OK, fair enough, under Getting Around, there are Network maps.

And they are better than they used to be, okay.

But still no Dublin bus map.

I have been going on and on about this for 20 years.

Well you clearly did not look very hard.

There was a network map until 11 years ago along with maps at stops.

punisher5112 · 03-05-2021 10:04pm

To be honest, lots do be going on about moving on and technology etc etc etc....

To be honest near everyone has a smart phone these days, maps a plenty on those....

The money going out is at what 55 million already and for what....

All I see is a few bus stops with now 3 different types of branding, it's actually near like a willy measuring contest.....

There was big expensive fancy stops on Eden Quay for example, they came out dug up and put in new poles recently, then at bus shelter they have no numbers up on it but on the glass itself, the amount of people asking me does such and such still stop there, because the pole is gone....

We are looking at around €5k a bus to repaint, there is no way London or others paint every 2 years, this is a absolute waste and imo stupid.

People really should be more interested in a top notch service, punctual, adequate place and safe for to alight and board without having to step off between cars or onto a road, now with e scooter and e bikes, the speed of them and the near misses I see daily, I've had numerous people hit after they got off or even waiting to get on.

The SG bus is absolutely the most uncomfortable bus I've ever been a passenger on and driver of, you feel every single bump or crack.

I've emailed numerous times for road sections where the road surfaces have collapsed or gone and some get a bit of a fill, more need to do this imo.

Stevek101 · 04-05-2021 9:43am

Is there temporarily going to be a different fare scheme for the H Spine? Or by short medium and long distance it is Stages 1- 3 €1.55,
Stages 4 – 13 €2.25 & over 13 Stages €2.50?

LXFlyer · 06-05-2021 5:02pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

To be honest, lots do be going on about moving on and technology etc etc etc....

To be honest near everyone has a smart phone these days, maps a plenty on those....

The money going out is at what 55 million already and for what....

All I see is a few bus stops with now 3 different types of branding, it's actually near like a willy measuring contest.....

There was big expensive fancy stops on Eden Quay for example, they came out dug up and put in new poles recently, then at bus shelter they have no numbers up on it but on the glass itself, the amount of people asking me does such and such still stop there, because the pole is gone....

We are looking at around €5k a bus to repaint, there is no way London or others paint every 2 years, this is a absolute waste and imo stupid.

People really should be more interested in a top notch service, punctual, adequate place and safe for to alight and board without having to step off between cars or onto a road, now with e scooter and e bikes, the speed of them and the near misses I see daily, I've had numerous people hit after they got off or even waiting to get on.

The SG bus is absolutely the most uncomfortable bus I've ever been a passenger on and driver of, you feel every single bump or crack.

I've emailed numerous times for road sections where the road surfaces have collapsed or gone and some get a bit of a fill, more need to do this imo.

There is no official network map available online or elsewhere, except the map on the BusConnects site which Jarrett Walker's team had to prepare themselves. That is shocking to be honest. Having network maps available and having information at the stops such as local maps and buses from the stops is basic stuff, yet it's been like that since 2010.

Regarding BusConnects, to be fair the NTA have outlined exactly where the money has been spent. Redesigning the network is not a simple or cheap task, nor is the design and preparation of the significant engineering work required for the corridors.

Dublin Bus repaint vehicles every four years, not every two as you suggest, which I think is reasonable, and the repainting that is taking place right now is in line with that. It's the 2013 and 2017 vehicles.

p_haugh · 08-05-2021 1:45am

Busconnects website has an updated page about the new fare structure and the implementation timeline. Still somewhat vague on exact details however:

https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/simpler-fare-structure/

punisher5112 · 08-05-2021 4:05pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

There is no official network map available online or elsewhere, except the map on the BusConnects site which Jarrett Walker's team had to prepare themselves. That is shocking to be honest. Having network maps available and having information at the stops such as local maps and buses from the stops is basic stuff, yet it's been like that since 2010.

Regarding BusConnects, to be fair the NTA have outlined exactly where the money has been spent. Redesigning the network is not a simple or cheap task, nor is the design and preparation of the significant engineering work required for the corridors.

Dublin Bus repaint vehicles every four years, not every two as you suggest, which I think is reasonable, and the repainting that is taking place right now is in line with that. It's the 2013 and 2017 vehicles.

More often then 4

LXFlyer · 08-05-2021 5:06pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

More often then 4

It used to be every three years but is now every four.

It is important for vehicles to be well presented - first impressions do make a difference.

p_haugh · 08-05-2021 6:51pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

It used to be every three years but is now every four.

It is important for vehicles to be well presented - first impressions do make a difference.

Something which Dublin Bus actually seem to care about, unlike Bus Eireann!

Sam Russell · 08-05-2021 7:35pm

p_haugh wrote: »

Something which Dublin Bus actually seem to care about, unlike Bus Eireann!

Well since they went for the blue and custard, the buses always look clean inside and out.

bk · 08-05-2021 8:13pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well since they went for the blue and custard, the buses always look clean inside and out.

Yes, there seems to have been real improvements over the last 15 years. DB and the NTA seem to understand that in order to attract people out of cars and onto buses, they need to be modern, reliable, well maintained, bright, clean, well presented and have touches like good info systems and USB.

No one is getting out of their car for some 20 year old banger spewing Diesel fumes everywhere, breaking down and filthy inside and out like we use to have in the past!

Sam Russell · 08-05-2021 9:33pm

Now they just need to clean up the fare system. I would ike to see just two fares - a single journey of say €1 to €2. The second fare would be a 90 min fare used for multiple journeys between DB, Luas and Dart costing €3 or so - with no cash alternative.

If the leap card was the ticket system, it would reduce the need for ticket inspectors as validation would be required for all.

punisher5112 · 08-05-2021 11:46pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now they just need to clean up the fare system. I would ike to see just two fares - a single journey of say €1 to €2. The second fare would be a 90 min fare used for multiple journeys between DB, Luas and Dart costing €3 or so - with no cash alternative.

If the leap card was the ticket system, it would reduce the need for ticket inspectors as validation would be required for all.

But it would, the amount using child cards and they are grown adults...
Many using others free travel cards or expired ones or blocked.

The validator should be like in London, at the drivers screen so everyone has to actually scan beside the driver.

bk · 09-05-2021 12:15pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now they just need to clean up the fare system. I would ike to see just two fares - a single journey of say €1 to €2. The second fare would be a 90 min fare used for multiple journeys between DB, Luas and Dart costing €3 or so - with no cash alternative.

That sounds like a great idea and could be combined with punisher5112's idea of the validator next to the driver.

Unfortunately it sounds that instead we will get a more complicated system of two fares, a short fare from the driver or a 90 minute fare from the right hand validator.

punisher5112 wrote: »

The validator should be like in London, at the drivers screen so everyone has to actually scan beside the driver.

I agree, but that would only work with Sam's suggestion above. You'd only need one validator. With the system that they seem to be currently heading for, you need two validators, one for the short fare, the other for the 90 minute fare.

I suppose you could put two validators next to the driver, but that would be a bit weird and complicated.

punisher5112 · 09-05-2021 12:27pm

bk wrote: »

That sounds like a great idea and could be combined with punisher5112's idea of the validator next to the driver.

Unfortunately it sounds that instead we will get a more complicated system of two fares, a short fare from the driver or a 90 minute fare from the right hand validator.

I agree, but that would only work with Sam's suggestion above. You'd only need one validator. With the system that they seem to be currently heading for, you need two validators, one for the short fare, the other for the 90 minute fare.

I suppose you could put two validators next to the driver, but that would be a bit weird and complicated.

Only way would be have tap at money drop part and the other where they still place card on drivers machine, colour the 2 different.

Sam Russell · 10-05-2021 12:23pm

Well, there is another way.

Validate all tickets at the validator. If its 90 min ticket still valid - one sound. If its adult single journey - second sound. If its child ticket - third sound. If its FTP - the fourth sound. Invalid ticket - fifth sound - driver intervenes if necessary.

I think a grown adult getting the child sound would be mortified, and so would not try it on.

Problem could be with the FTP because some users might think it stigmatises them, but so what - they can always pay the fare.

A ticket inspector could sit near the validator on occasion and challenge anyone that looked like they should be challenged. Then check all tickets on the bus if it warrants it.

vrusinov · 10-05-2021 2:21pm

That sounds even more complicated.

I don't see the problem with two fares as proposed - I imagine majority will use 90 minute ticket, and people who do a few stops will know to use a driver side validator.

Sure, it's difficult to enforce but so it the current system. Nothing stops me saying "2.25" to driver and going all the way to Tallaght.

riddlinrussell · 10-05-2021 2:22pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, there is another way.

Validate all tickets at the validator. If its 90 min ticket still valid - one sound. If its adult single journey - second sound. If its child ticket - third sound. If its FTP - the fourth sound. Invalid ticket - fifth sound - driver intervenes if necessary.

I think a grown adult getting the child sound would be mortified, and so would not try it on.

Problem could be with the FTP because some users might think it stigmatises them, but so what - they can always pay the fare.

A ticket inspector could sit near the validator on occasion and challenge anyone that looked like they should be challenged. Then check all tickets on the bus if it warrants it.

Don't really get the FTP being singled out there, wouldn't it make sense to get the 90 minute fare beep, as its effectively no different to it? Enforcement of who is an FTP holder will happen at an administrative level rather than bus level.

Qrt · 10-05-2021 4:57pm

Just to note, there’s already different sounds for adult and child leap cards. It’s a beeeeeeep and bee bee beeeep situation.

punisher5112 · 10-05-2021 4:59pm

Qrt wrote: »

Just to note, there’s already different sounds for adult and child leap cards. It’s a beeeeeeep and bee bee beeeep situation.

That's around a long time, it was pulled for the student leap card a while back.

There are loads using child cards, guys and girls regularly at it, some off sites, regular full time workers even one I know of working at a pharmacy.

cgcsb · 10-05-2021 5:19pm

There would be less fare evasion if the fares were lowered. We have some of the world's most expensive public transport and ironically it seems to be more expensive outside of Dublin. Only Scandinavia and switzerland seems to have more expensive tickets and these are very high waged economies.

Pre pandemic DART and Dublin Bus were nominally profit making transport providers, something that doesn't really exist elsewhere. The cost of PT needs to be more heavily subsidised.

That being said the artificially high fares here act as a capacity management tool. If it were cheap the existing crush loading seen on pt here would be worse.

Sam Russell · 10-05-2021 5:54pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Don't really get the FTP being singled out there, wouldn't it make sense to get the 90 minute fare beep, as its effectively no different to it? Enforcement of who is an FTP holder will happen at an administrative level rather than bus level.

You correct.

cgcsb wrote: »

There would be less fare evasion if the fares were lowered. We have some of the world's most expensive public transport and ironically it seems to be more expensive outside of Dublin. Only Scandinavia and switzerland seems to have more expensive tickets and these are very high waged economies.

Pre pandemic DART and Dublin Bus were nominally profit making transport providers, something that doesn't really exist elsewhere. The cost of PT needs to be more heavily subsidised.

That being said the artificially high fares here act as a capacity management tool. If it were cheap the existing crush loading seen on pt here would be worse.

The cheap fares could be off peak to start with if capacity is an issue.

CatInABox · 11-05-2021 2:55pm

They've taken down a load of bus stops along the Howth Rd, should be seeing the new poles going in over the next few days. I assume it's the infrastructure works for the H spine. Looking forward to seeing them.

Peregrine · 11-05-2021 3:07pm

CatInABox wrote: »

They've taken down a load of bus stops along the Howth Rd, should be seeing the new poles going in over the next few days. I assume it's the infrastructure works for the H spine. Looking forward to seeing them.

Yep. They'll do that for all the phases.

Peregrine · 11-05-2021 3:13pm

bk wrote: »

Also do you know when the N2 is supposed to be rolled out?

The O, N2, W2, W4 and W6 will now be rolled out in June 2022 alongside the G spine. That's pretty much all of the delays. Everything still on track after that.

C spine in October 2021 (one month behind schedule) and N4 and N6 in January 2022 as planned.

11-05-2021 3:20pm

Is their a public list somewhere of planned rollout order & dates?

LXFlyer · 11-05-2021 4:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Is their a public list somewhere of planned rollout order & dates?

Just the results of FOI requests reported on twitter.

In summary next year is focussing on the orbitals - the S orbitals are due later next year if the original schedule is followed.

In 2021:
H Spine & associated radial route
C Spine & associated radial/local routes

In 2022:
N4/N6 Orbitals
G Spine & associated radial/local routes; O, N2, W2/W4/W6 Orbitals
S2/S4/S6 Orbitals (and probably L25 too)

In 2023:
F Spine & associated radial/local routes
E Spine & associated radial/local routes
D Spine & associated radial/local routes

In 2024:
A Spine & associated radial/local routes
B Spine & associated radial/local routes
Ranelagh radial routes

cgcsb · 11-05-2021 4:25pm

Peregrine wrote: »

The O, N2, W2, W4 and W6 will now be rolled out in June 2022 alongside the G spine. That's pretty much all of the delays. Everything still on track after that.

C spine in October 2021 (one month behind schedule) and N4 and N6 in January 2021 as planned.

Are N4 and N6 running now? I can't see any info on that. Thought that H was going to be the first and only one for a while.

Geuze · 11-05-2021 4:27pm

CatInABox wrote: »

They've taken down a load of bus stops along the Howth Rd, should be seeing the new poles going in over the next few days. I assume it's the infrastructure works for the H spine. Looking forward to seeing them.

Sorry for asking, as this question has probably been answered already.

Does BusConnects mean a change in the number / location / spacing of bus stops along a route?

AFAIK, Dublin has too many bus stops.

Does BusConnects mean that every bus stop will have a unique name, and that the name will be displayed at the bus stop?

11-05-2021 4:35pm

2024 at the earliest for the A routes? Oh lordy.

Peregrine · 11-05-2021 4:41pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Are N4 and N6 running now? I can't see any info on that. Thought that H was going to be the first and only one for a while.

Sorry, January 2022.

LXFlyer · 11-05-2021 4:50pm

Deleted User wrote: »

2024 at the earliest for the A routes? Oh lordy.

Bear in mind that this all involves a lot of extra buses as well a complete rescheduling of the entire bus service across the city (which is a very intense and specialised process).

There's an article on it here:

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/busconnects-dublin-new-routes-launch-20564130

11-05-2021 5:00pm

Is that true for the A1? Given the existing frequency/24 hour nature of the 15, it's not actually going to involve many more buses or much scheduling changes surely? And similar for the 16!

I had actually thought that this would have made the A routes one of the first to be rolled out.

Peregrine · 11-05-2021 5:01pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is their a public list somewhere of planned rollout order & dates?

They haven't published anything but I did get this list. It doesn't include the non-spine radial routes which will be rolled out alongside the spines.

LXFlyer · 11-05-2021 5:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Is that true for the A1? Given the existing frequency/24 hour nature of the 15, it's not actually going to involve many more buses or much scheduling changes surely? And similar for the 16!

I had actually thought that this would have made the A routes one of the first to be rolled out.

The whole process involves a completely different approach to scheduling for Dublin Bus.

It involves fixed stop-by-stop schedules along the entire route rather than the current process whereby officially the only schedules are the departure times and driver handover points.

The timings that deliver the RTPI times currently are regularly changed by Dublin Bus in the background to reflect the changing traffic conditions so that buses keep moving.

Now they will operate like GAI, with every stop having a fixed time, and buses may wait at certain stops if they are early. That's a massive change in the process and will require significantly more detailed work than current processes. Scheduling is a very specialised task.

It also involves coming up with integrated schedules between the routes for every stop along the core element of each spine so that there is an even headway along the section where all of the spine routes operate.

Therefore, none of the spines are not going to be straightforward as that has to be married up with driver rosters and breaks, and make sure that the latter are in compliance with the EU Working Time directive.

The H Spine is the simplest to start with - it involves the least amount of change in terms of routes, isn't cross-city and allows DB to get a handle on the new processes with the routes all being along the Howth Road.

After that the C & G spines are probably the next easiest as they generally involve one corridor (Lucan and Ballyfermot) with Sandymount added into the C Spine, but also involve quite a few local routes too.

Implementing the orbital network is probably far more important at that point than additional spines, as they are the missing part of the network which will offer far more journeys around the city than currently available.

Beyond that, all the other spines are north/south ones through the city centre and each will impact on two corridors (one north of the river, one south), which means if they get it wrong, the impact is much greater. I don't think that any one of spines A, B, D, E or F are easier than any other if I'm honest.

The A Spine is not just the A1 though - there's the A2, A3, A4, A9 too, and then also associated various radial, peak and local routes on both sides of the city. As indeed are all the other ones.

punisher5112 · 11-05-2021 5:42pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The whole process involves a completely different approach to scheduling for Dublin Bus.

It involves fixed stop-by-stop schedules along the entire route rather than the current process whereby officially the only schedules are the departure times and driver handover points.

The timings that deliver the RTPI times currently are regularly changed by Dublin Bus in the background to reflect the changing traffic conditions so that buses keep moving.

Now they will operate like GAI, waiting at certain stops if they are early. That's a massive change in the process and will require significantly more detailed work than current processes. Scheduling is a very specialised task.

It also involves coming up with integrated schedules between the routes for every stop along the core element of each spine so that there is an even headway along the section where all of the spine routes operate.

Therefore, none of the spines are not going to be straightforward.

The H Spine is the simplest to start with - it involves the least amount of change in terms of routes, isn't cross-city and allows DB to get a handle on the new processes with the routes all being along the Howth Road.

After that the C & G spines are probably the next easiest as they generally involve one corridor (Lucan and Ballyfermot) with Sandymount added into the C Spine, but also involve quite a few local routes too.

Implementing the orbital network is probably far more important at that point than additional spines, as they are the missing part of the network which will offer far more journeys around the city than currently available.

Beyond that, all the other spines are north/south ones through the city centre and each will impact on two corridors (one north of the river, one south), which means if they get it wrong, the impact is much greater. I don't think that any one of spines A, B, D, E or F are easier than any other if I'm honest.

The A Spine is not just the A1 though - there's the A2, A3, A4, A9 too, and then also associated various radial, peak and local routes on both sides of the city. As indeed are all the other ones.

But db is now holding at stops, this is in a month now.
There are timing points and if a bus is ahead they wait at these specific stops.

LXFlyer · 11-05-2021 6:24pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

But db is now holding at stops, this is in a month now.
There are timing points and if a bus is ahead they wait at these specific stops.

It is a massive change in the scheduling process though and makes it much more difficult.

This will be true particularly in getting the spine routes to arrive at the start of each core spine section in an integrated manner.

punisher5112 · 11-05-2021 6:35pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

It is a massive change in the scheduling process though and makes it much more difficult.

This will be true particularly in getting the spine routes to arrive at the start of each core spine section in an integrated manner.

Indeed, hence we need more done about bus delays. A new pole isn't going to fix it

LXFlyer · 11-05-2021 7:07pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Indeed, hence we need more done about bus delays. A new pole isn't going to fix it

You have to look at this as a complete relaunch of the bus service in Dublin. And every aspect of that is important including branding. You have to look at the whole project in its entirety rather than talking about “new poles” as if that’s the only thing happening.

All of the components add up:

* new expanded route network
* far more orbital services
* integrated spine services with better frequency
* improved infrastructure with far more priority for buses along spines
* integrated time-based tickets and contactless payments
* new greener buses
* far better information online and on-street
* new single livery across all PSO services
* redesigned single design of bus stops with improved customer information on stops across the country which will also remove the clutter of multi-operator stops at certain locations as all will be on the one stop

You go on about this just being about poles. Well what about all of those things above? The infrastructure plans which will deliver improved priority are about to go to ABP. Things are happening on all of the fronts above.

Branding IS important and relaunching the bus service with a new livery across the buses and stops is a part of that. The NTA are trying to encourage people who (for whatever reason) don’t use the bus to do so. All of the above add up when you are trying to do that. Not one or the other. All of them.

cgcsb · 11-05-2021 8:52pm

Deleted User wrote: »

2024 at the earliest for the A routes? Oh lordy.

Is that not the most frustrating thing you've ever heard. :pac:

AngryLips · 12-05-2021 8:32am

LXFlyer wrote: »

The whole process involves a completely different approach to scheduling for Dublin Bus.

It involves fixed stop-by-stop schedules along the entire route rather than the current process whereby officially the only schedules are the departure times and driver handover points.

This is going to be a disaster for public transport services in Dublin. The GA passenger experience is terrible as a result - lengthy and slow buses, unnecessarily long dwell times, I can't imagine Dubliners putting up with it for long before there'll be public uproar. It's completely unnecessary on routes with frequencies of 15 minutes or more IMO, and it's even more unnecessary because we have RTPI so it's not as if people are ever ignorant of actual bus times. They can fine-tweak it all they want, but I don't see it working.

LXFlyer · 12-05-2021 8:42am

AngryLips wrote: »

This is going to be a disaster for public transport services in Dublin. The GA passenger experience is terrible as a result - lengthy and slow buses, unnecessarily long dwell times, I can't imagine Dubliners putting up with it for long before there'll be public uproar. It's completely unnecessary on routes with frequencies of 15 minutes or more IMO, and it's even more unnecessary because we have RTPI so it's not as if people are ever ignorant of actual bus times. They can fine-tweak it all they want, but I don't see it working.

Well on the flip side it means predictable arrival times - check the journey planner and see when it’s due to arrive at your destination which is important in terms of making connections.

But I have similar fears - I was on two early 75 buses on a Sunday morning recently that crawled along and waited several times. But that is down to excessively generous scheduling.

The challenge is getting the running time right - they should be achievable but not overly generous. DB might be more ambitious than GAI in that regard.

CatInABox · 12-05-2021 9:42am

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well on the flip side it means predictable arrival times - check the journey planner and see when it’s due to arrive at your destination which is important in terms of making connections.

But I have similar fears - I was on two early 75 buses on a Sunday morning recently that crawled along and waited several times. But that is down to excessively generous scheduling.

The challenge is getting the running time right - they should be achievable but not overly generous. DB might be more ambitious than GAI in that regard.

I wonder was the schedule updated to take account of the lessened traffic during covid?

LXFlyer · 12-05-2021 9:50am

CatInABox wrote: »

I wonder was the schedule updated to take account of the lessened traffic during covid?

First thing on Sunday morning????

It was the first bus when there is never any traffic.

The schedule is just too generous.

That’s common across GAI routes especially at weekends (before Covid too).

We had to wait 4 minutes at one stop while it barely got out of second gear all the way.

The fear that I have is that given that the revenue risk is with the NTA, that the companies will schedule generously to avoid being penalised for arriving late.

Pete_Cavan · 12-05-2021 10:19am

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well on the flip side it means predictable arrival times - check the journey planner and see when it’s due to arrive at your destination which is important in terms of making connections.

Doesn't that just mean that your journey time will always be the maximum possible? The downside to not doing that is potentially arriving early, which most people probably wouldn't see as a negative.

Dublin - BusConnects

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