Dublin - BusConnects

punisher5112

LXFlyer wrote: »

The whole process involves a completely different approach to scheduling for Dublin Bus.

It involves fixed stop-by-stop schedules along the entire route rather than the current process whereby officially the only schedules are the departure times and driver handover points.

The timings that deliver the RTPI times currently are regularly changed by Dublin Bus in the background to reflect the changing traffic conditions so that buses keep moving.

Now they will operate like GAI, waiting at certain stops if they are early. That's a massive change in the process and will require significantly more detailed work than current processes. Scheduling is a very specialised task.

It also involves coming up with integrated schedules between the routes for every stop along the core element of each spine so that there is an even headway along the section where all of the spine routes operate.

Therefore, none of the spines are not going to be straightforward.

The H Spine is the simplest to start with - it involves the least amount of change in terms of routes, isn't cross-city and allows DB to get a handle on the new processes with the routes all being along the Howth Road.

After that the C & G spines are probably the next easiest as they generally involve one corridor (Lucan and Ballyfermot) with Sandymount added into the C Spine, but also involve quite a few local routes too.

Implementing the orbital network is probably far more important at that point than additional spines, as they are the missing part of the network which will offer far more journeys around the city than currently available.

Beyond that, all the other spines are north/south ones through the city centre and each will impact on two corridors (one north of the river, one south), which means if they get it wrong, the impact is much greater. I don't think that any one of spines A, B, D, E or F are easier than any other if I'm honest.

The A Spine is not just the A1 though - there's the A2, A3, A4, A9 too, and then also associated various radial, peak and local routes on both sides of the city. As indeed are all the other ones.

But db is now holding at stops, this is in a month now.
There are timing points and if a bus is ahead they wait at these specific stops.

LXFlyer

punisher5112 wrote: »

But db is now holding at stops, this is in a month now.
There are timing points and if a bus is ahead they wait at these specific stops.

It is a massive change in the scheduling process though and makes it much more difficult.

This will be true particularly in getting the spine routes to arrive at the start of each core spine section in an integrated manner.

punisher5112

LXFlyer wrote: »

It is a massive change in the scheduling process though and makes it much more difficult.

This will be true particularly in getting the spine routes to arrive at the start of each core spine section in an integrated manner.

Indeed, hence we need more done about bus delays. A new pole isn't going to fix it

LXFlyer

punisher5112 wrote: »

Indeed, hence we need more done about bus delays. A new pole isn't going to fix it

You have to look at this as a complete relaunch of the bus service in Dublin. And every aspect of that is important including branding. You have to look at the whole project in its entirety rather than talking about “new poles” as if that’s the only thing happening.

All of the components add up:

* new expanded route network
* far more orbital services
* integrated spine services with better frequency
* improved infrastructure with far more priority for buses along spines
* integrated time-based tickets and contactless payments
* new greener buses
* far better information online and on-street
* new single livery across all PSO services
* redesigned single design of bus stops with improved customer information on stops across the country which will also remove the clutter of multi-operator stops at certain locations as all will be on the one stop

You go on about this just being about poles. Well what about all of those things above? The infrastructure plans which will deliver improved priority are about to go to ABP. Things are happening on all of the fronts above.

Branding IS important and relaunching the bus service with a new livery across the buses and stops is a part of that. The NTA are trying to encourage people who (for whatever reason) don’t use the bus to do so. All of the above add up when you are trying to do that. Not one or the other. All of them.

cgcsb

Wetasanotter wrote: »

2024 at the earliest for the A routes? Oh lordy.

Is that not the most frustrating thing you've ever heard. :pac:

AngryLips

LXFlyer wrote: »

The whole process involves a completely different approach to scheduling for Dublin Bus.

It involves fixed stop-by-stop schedules along the entire route rather than the current process whereby officially the only schedules are the departure times and driver handover points.

This is going to be a disaster for public transport services in Dublin. The GA passenger experience is terrible as a result - lengthy and slow buses, unnecessarily long dwell times, I can't imagine Dubliners putting up with it for long before there'll be public uproar. It's completely unnecessary on routes with frequencies of 15 minutes or more IMO, and it's even more unnecessary because we have RTPI so it's not as if people are ever ignorant of actual bus times. They can fine-tweak it all they want, but I don't see it working.

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

This is going to be a disaster for public transport services in Dublin. The GA passenger experience is terrible as a result - lengthy and slow buses, unnecessarily long dwell times, I can't imagine Dubliners putting up with it for long before there'll be public uproar. It's completely unnecessary on routes with frequencies of 15 minutes or more IMO, and it's even more unnecessary because we have RTPI so it's not as if people are ever ignorant of actual bus times. They can fine-tweak it all they want, but I don't see it working.

Well on the flip side it means predictable arrival times - check the journey planner and see when it’s due to arrive at your destination which is important in terms of making connections.

But I have similar fears - I was on two early 75 buses on a Sunday morning recently that crawled along and waited several times. But that is down to excessively generous scheduling.

The challenge is getting the running time right - they should be achievable but not overly generous. DB might be more ambitious than GAI in that regard.

CatInABox

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well on the flip side it means predictable arrival times - check the journey planner and see when it’s due to arrive at your destination which is important in terms of making connections.

But I have similar fears - I was on two early 75 buses on a Sunday morning recently that crawled along and waited several times. But that is down to excessively generous scheduling.

The challenge is getting the running time right - they should be achievable but not overly generous. DB might be more ambitious than GAI in that regard.

I wonder was the schedule updated to take account of the lessened traffic during covid?

LXFlyer

CatInABox wrote: »

I wonder was the schedule updated to take account of the lessened traffic during covid?

First thing on Sunday morning????

It was the first bus when there is never any traffic.

The schedule is just too generous.

That’s common across GAI routes especially at weekends (before Covid too).

We had to wait 4 minutes at one stop while it barely got out of second gear all the way.

The fear that I have is that given that the revenue risk is with the NTA, that the companies will schedule generously to avoid being penalised for arriving late.

Pete_Cavan

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well on the flip side it means predictable arrival times - check the journey planner and see when it’s due to arrive at your destination which is important in terms of making connections.

Doesn't that just mean that your journey time will always be the maximum possible? The downside to not doing that is potentially arriving early, which most people probably wouldn't see as a negative.

LXFlyer

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Doesn't that just mean that your journey time will always be the maximum possible? The downside to not doing that is potentially arriving early, which most people probably wouldn't see as a negative.

Yes it does - but will that entice people out of their cars and onto buses, especially for orbital journeys?

Leave the car behind for a bus that’ll trundle along and possibly wait at certain locations to catch up on the schedule.

It’s a very fine balancing act getting the running times right.

CatInABox

Looking well this morning, they have most of them done from the bottom of the Howth Road to Killester. Don't know if they've gone any further.

Don't approve of the way that they did the upgrade though.
Day one, they take down the existing pole, leaving a hole surrounded by barriers
Day two, the hole is filled in with concrete with the connecter in place for the new pole, surrounded by barriers
Day three, they take away the barriers, leaving no sign that they were there
Day four, the new pole goes up.

At no point did they have a "Temporary Bus Stop" sign, or any BusConnects branded sign or anything, and this was a load of bus stops. In some locations there's literally no evidence that there's a bus stop there at all. Yes, it was only for a day, but even so, they should really have thought of this before starting.

yascaoimhin

CatInABox wrote: »

Looking well this morning, they have most of them done from the bottom of the Howth Road to Killester. Don't know if they've gone any further.

Don't approve of the way that they did the upgrade though.
Day one, they take down the existing pole, leaving a hole surrounded by barriers
Day two, the hole is filled in with concrete with the connecter in place for the new pole, surrounded by barriers
Day three, they take away the barriers, leaving no sign that they were there
Day four, the new pole goes up.

At no point did they have a "Temporary Bus Stop" sign, or any BusConnects branded sign or anything, and this was a load of bus stops. In some locations there's literally no evidence that there's a bus stop there at all. Yes, it was only for a day, but even so, they should really have thought of this before starting.

Why is it so far into the footpath?!

CatInABox

yascaoimhin wrote: »

Why is it so far into the footpath?!

It's where the original was. :rolleyes: Frustrating.

punisher5112

Less risk of it been hit, the services wooden pole is in a very bad spot, or you could say the bus stop itself.....

AngryLips

punisher5112 wrote: »

Less risk of it been hit, the services wooden pole is in a very bad spot, or you could say the bus stop itself.....

...some things never change

bk

I jsut posted this over on C&T too, but I was out for a stroll myself today and got some pictures of both the new and old poles on the same street. I have to say the new ones look very nice. Much sturdier looking then the old ones and easier to read:



And old poles:

tobsey

LXFlyer wrote: »

That’s common across GAI routes especially at weekends (before Covid too).

We had to wait 4 minutes at one stop while it barely got out of second gear all the way.

The fear that I have is that given that the revenue risk is with the NTA, that the companies will schedule generously to avoid being penalised for arriving late.

Why aren't NTA setting the route times also? (a general question not aimed at you). If the NTA are the ones managing the routes and selecting the operator, why aren't they also specifying the frequency and route times. It's bizarre. The NTA should be defining the full timetable and then putting it out to tender for operators to bid on. The operators shouldn't be winning the bidding and then saying it'll take 90 minutes for a 60 minute route.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

And old poles:

Your first pic is very frustrating, someone thought putting a pole there just for a sign that says the bus lane ends here (something abundantly and painfully obvious to all road users) was a valid use of our money.

Someone very powerful in this country has a cousin in a sign making, or poll making business. The place is destroyed with polls and offical signage. Ironically you go to poorer places like Northern Ireland and see how little of this official clutter there is, signs that are required are mounted onto existing lamp posts or service poles.

yascaoimhin

cgcsb wrote: »

Your first pic is very frustrating, someone thought putting a pole there just for a sign that says the bus lane ends here (something abundantly and painfully obvious to all road users) was a valid use of our money.

You think that's bad?

Look at this pic of the new cycle lane on Constitution Hill.
https://twitter.com/dublincycling/status/1330831477886636033/photo/2

You can see the first sign, it is to say the bus lane is starting and the hours it operates.

Immediately after it is another pole to say that the bus lane is in effect and the hours it operates.

Then there's a bus stop.

Then there's another pole with another sign telling you the bus lane continues after the bus stop and the hours it operates.

Three signs all saying the same thing one after another in the space of 20 meters

LXFlyer

tobsey wrote: »

Why aren't NTA setting the route times also? (a general question not aimed at you). If the NTA are the ones managing the routes and selecting the operator, why aren't they also specifying the frequency and route times. It's bizarre. The NTA should be defining the full timetable and then putting it out to tender for operators to bid on. The operators shouldn't be winning the bidding and then saying it'll take 90 minutes for a 60 minute route.

The NTA are setting the service levels on each route once BusConnects starts.

But the detailed work in developing the full schedules is a very specialised skill which the NTA as a regulator have limited access to. The job of building up the bus and driver rosters behind the timetable is down to the operating companies which is really where it needs to be done.

But the NTA do review the schedules before they are implemented and can ask for changes. But unfortunately how good/bad a schedule actually is really can't be judged until it actually starts operating - then you need the processes to monitor the performance of that schedule. But let's be honest if buses are crawling along, no data reports are going to show that. It'll be down to passengers complaining.

BonnieSituation

cgcsb wrote: »

Your first pic is very frustrating, someone thought putting a pole there just for a sign that says the bus lane ends here (something abundantly and painfully obvious to all road users) was a valid use of our money.

Someone very powerful in this country has a cousin in a sign making, or poll making business. The place is destroyed with polls and offical signage. Ironically you go to poorer places like Northern Ireland and see how little of this official clutter there is, signs that are required are mounted onto existing lamp posts or service poles.

Ah Rennicks

bk

I actually happened to pass them replacing poles today. Looks like a major operation, much more then just a pole replacement.

Looks like:
- Remove old pole
- Kango hammer out the old concrete and dig decently deep foundations
- Put in deep looking base
- Pour concrete into hole around base with a big cement mixer truck!

Hopefully this will lead to very secure poles that won't fall over as easily as the old ones.

BTW Some of these poles in this street were only repainted if not replaced by DB just a month ago!!!

punisher5112

bk wrote: »

I actually happened to pass them replacing poles today. Looks like a major operation, much more then just a pole replacement.

Looks like:
- Remove old pole
- Kango hammer out the old concrete and dig decently deep foundations
- Put in deep looking base
- Pour concrete into hole around base with a big cement mixer truck!

Hopefully this will lead to very secure poles that won't fall over as easily as the old ones.

BTW Some of these poles in this street were only repainted if not replaced by DB just a month ago!!!

If you look,most pole holders have been replaced for exactly what they are now digging and putting in more new ones. These have a cap cover you remove to tightens bolts into the bottom of the pole to stop it been pulled out.

Thelonious Monk

RE the Howth Road pictures above, that bus lane is a car park for what seems like most of the day. Is it going to remain like that? I can't imagine they'd have the balls to get rid of parking altogether. It also means you've to cycle in the middle of the road to avoid getting car doored, much to the ire of motorists behind you.

GT89

punisher5112 wrote: »

Less risk of it been hit, the services wooden pole is in a very bad spot, or you could say the bus stop itself.....

Yes very bad planning alright not sure why the kassel kerbing was put in front of that lamp post

p_haugh

Was out in Howth today for a walk to the summit and took the 31 back into town - seems all of the bus shelters along the route had the new TFI branding. The poles however, are still the normal Dublin Bus ones up until the junction of All Saints Road and Howth Road - presumably these stops will be done over the coming week.

dublinman1990

Re: Buses being launched for the H Spine.

It appears that the EV's are getting repainted in the new TFI green livery. EV78, which was registered in 2008, is the first bus in that type to be painted in the new livery from a few days ago. It is currently parked up in Freeneys Graphics in Tallaght. I'm guessing that EV78 is based at Clontarf which is the main garage for the H Spine routes to be launched this summer. This could also mean that the buses that won't get painted in this green livery at all will be the AX's & VT's.

I already knew that some of the AX's from Dublin Bus have been painted in the TFI Blue livery for Go Ahead to provide extra school services on some of the Northside Dublin routes. But this is probably as far as they could go in terms of their repaints as a lot of them have placed or going into storage at Ardee to be sold as 2nd hand buses to other operators. Some of the AX's have appeared in Dublin City Centre although they have no ad's on the side of them.

GT89

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Re: Buses being launched for the H Spine.

It appears that the EV's are getting repainted in the new TFI green livery. EV78, which was registered in 2008, is the first bus in that type to be painted in the new livery from a few days ago. It is currently parked up in Freeneys Graphics in Tallaght. I'm guessing that EV78 is based at Clontarf which is the main garage for the H Spine routes to be launched this summer. This could also mean that the buses that won't get painted in this green livery at all will be the AX's & VT's.

I already knew that some of the AX's from Dublin Bus have been painted in the TFI Blue livery for Go Ahead to provide extra school services on some of the Northside Dublin routes. But this is probably as far as they could go in terms of their repaints as a lot of them have placed or going into storage at Ardee to be sold as 2nd hand buses to other operators. Some of the AX's have appeared in Dublin City Centre although they have no ad's on the side of them.

I'm surprised they're doing the EVs which will all be withdrawn in the next few years under DBs fleet replacement scheme. AXs should be all gone by the end of the year if everything goes to plan with PA deliveries. None of the AXs even have the new TFI logos so I'd be very surprised if the repainted them.

I would have thought the NTA would want the H Spine routes operated exclusively by dual door buses. If they're trying to promote the service on the new H Spine I wouldn't think operating ancient buses is a good idea.

punisher5112

Wouldn't surprise me that they are painted and then sent off packing with the new colours.....
After a year or so, this then leaves the new owner with the colour they would need for services.

Now that's speculation of course.