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Dublin - BusConnects

marno21

Two weeks after a similar publication for Metrolink, the NTA have published a tender for design of 16 Core Bus Corridors for the BusConnect project:

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=127159&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

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p_haugh

Busconnects website has an updated page about the new fare structure and the implementation timeline. Still somewhat vague on exact details however:

https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/simpler-fare-structure/

punisher5112

LXFlyer wrote: »

There is no official network map available online or elsewhere, except the map on the BusConnects site which Jarrett Walker's team had to prepare themselves. That is shocking to be honest. Having network maps available and having information at the stops such as local maps and buses from the stops is basic stuff, yet it's been like that since 2010.

Regarding BusConnects, to be fair the NTA have outlined exactly where the money has been spent. Redesigning the network is not a simple or cheap task, nor is the design and preparation of the significant engineering work required for the corridors.

Dublin Bus repaint vehicles every four years, not every two as you suggest, which I think is reasonable, and the repainting that is taking place right now is in line with that. It's the 2013 and 2017 vehicles.

More often then 4

LXFlyer

punisher5112 wrote: »

More often then 4

It used to be every three years but is now every four.

It is important for vehicles to be well presented - first impressions do make a difference.

p_haugh

LXFlyer wrote: »

It used to be every three years but is now every four.

It is important for vehicles to be well presented - first impressions do make a difference.

Something which Dublin Bus actually seem to care about, unlike Bus Eireann!

Sam Russell

p_haugh wrote: »

Something which Dublin Bus actually seem to care about, unlike Bus Eireann!

Well since they went for the blue and custard, the buses always look clean inside and out.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well since they went for the blue and custard, the buses always look clean inside and out.

Yes, there seems to have been real improvements over the last 15 years. DB and the NTA seem to understand that in order to attract people out of cars and onto buses, they need to be modern, reliable, well maintained, bright, clean, well presented and have touches like good info systems and USB.

No one is getting out of their car for some 20 year old banger spewing Diesel fumes everywhere, breaking down and filthy inside and out like we use to have in the past!

Sam Russell

Now they just need to clean up the fare system. I would ike to see just two fares - a single journey of say €1 to €2. The second fare would be a 90 min fare used for multiple journeys between DB, Luas and Dart costing €3 or so - with no cash alternative.

If the leap card was the ticket system, it would reduce the need for ticket inspectors as validation would be required for all.

punisher5112

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now they just need to clean up the fare system. I would ike to see just two fares - a single journey of say €1 to €2. The second fare would be a 90 min fare used for multiple journeys between DB, Luas and Dart costing €3 or so - with no cash alternative.

If the leap card was the ticket system, it would reduce the need for ticket inspectors as validation would be required for all.

But it would, the amount using child cards and they are grown adults...
Many using others free travel cards or expired ones or blocked.

The validator should be like in London, at the drivers screen so everyone has to actually scan beside the driver.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now they just need to clean up the fare system. I would ike to see just two fares - a single journey of say €1 to €2. The second fare would be a 90 min fare used for multiple journeys between DB, Luas and Dart costing €3 or so - with no cash alternative.

That sounds like a great idea and could be combined with punisher5112's idea of the validator next to the driver.

Unfortunately it sounds that instead we will get a more complicated system of two fares, a short fare from the driver or a 90 minute fare from the right hand validator.

punisher5112 wrote: »

The validator should be like in London, at the drivers screen so everyone has to actually scan beside the driver.

I agree, but that would only work with Sam's suggestion above. You'd only need one validator. With the system that they seem to be currently heading for, you need two validators, one for the short fare, the other for the 90 minute fare.

I suppose you could put two validators next to the driver, but that would be a bit weird and complicated.

punisher5112

bk wrote: »

That sounds like a great idea and could be combined with punisher5112's idea of the validator next to the driver.

Unfortunately it sounds that instead we will get a more complicated system of two fares, a short fare from the driver or a 90 minute fare from the right hand validator.

I agree, but that would only work with Sam's suggestion above. You'd only need one validator. With the system that they seem to be currently heading for, you need two validators, one for the short fare, the other for the 90 minute fare.

I suppose you could put two validators next to the driver, but that would be a bit weird and complicated.

Only way would be have tap at money drop part and the other where they still place card on drivers machine, colour the 2 different.

Sam Russell

Well, there is another way.

Validate all tickets at the validator. If its 90 min ticket still valid - one sound. If its adult single journey - second sound. If its child ticket - third sound. If its FTP - the fourth sound. Invalid ticket - fifth sound - driver intervenes if necessary.

I think a grown adult getting the child sound would be mortified, and so would not try it on.

Problem could be with the FTP because some users might think it stigmatises them, but so what - they can always pay the fare.

A ticket inspector could sit near the validator on occasion and challenge anyone that looked like they should be challenged. Then check all tickets on the bus if it warrants it.

vrusinov

That sounds even more complicated.

I don't see the problem with two fares as proposed - I imagine majority will use 90 minute ticket, and people who do a few stops will know to use a driver side validator.

Sure, it's difficult to enforce but so it the current system. Nothing stops me saying "2.25" to driver and going all the way to Tallaght.

riddlinrussell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, there is another way.

Validate all tickets at the validator. If its 90 min ticket still valid - one sound. If its adult single journey - second sound. If its child ticket - third sound. If its FTP - the fourth sound. Invalid ticket - fifth sound - driver intervenes if necessary.

I think a grown adult getting the child sound would be mortified, and so would not try it on.

Problem could be with the FTP because some users might think it stigmatises them, but so what - they can always pay the fare.

A ticket inspector could sit near the validator on occasion and challenge anyone that looked like they should be challenged. Then check all tickets on the bus if it warrants it.

Don't really get the FTP being singled out there, wouldn't it make sense to get the 90 minute fare beep, as its effectively no different to it? Enforcement of who is an FTP holder will happen at an administrative level rather than bus level.

Qrt

Just to note, there’s already different sounds for adult and child leap cards. It’s a beeeeeeep and bee bee beeeep situation.

punisher5112

Qrt wrote: »

Just to note, there’s already different sounds for adult and child leap cards. It’s a beeeeeeep and bee bee beeeep situation.

That's around a long time, it was pulled for the student leap card a while back.

There are loads using child cards, guys and girls regularly at it, some off sites, regular full time workers even one I know of working at a pharmacy.

cgcsb

There would be less fare evasion if the fares were lowered. We have some of the world's most expensive public transport and ironically it seems to be more expensive outside of Dublin. Only Scandinavia and switzerland seems to have more expensive tickets and these are very high waged economies.

Pre pandemic DART and Dublin Bus were nominally profit making transport providers, something that doesn't really exist elsewhere. The cost of PT needs to be more heavily subsidised.

That being said the artificially high fares here act as a capacity management tool. If it were cheap the existing crush loading seen on pt here would be worse.

Sam Russell

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Don't really get the FTP being singled out there, wouldn't it make sense to get the 90 minute fare beep, as its effectively no different to it? Enforcement of who is an FTP holder will happen at an administrative level rather than bus level.

You correct.

cgcsb wrote: »

There would be less fare evasion if the fares were lowered. We have some of the world's most expensive public transport and ironically it seems to be more expensive outside of Dublin. Only Scandinavia and switzerland seems to have more expensive tickets and these are very high waged economies.

Pre pandemic DART and Dublin Bus were nominally profit making transport providers, something that doesn't really exist elsewhere. The cost of PT needs to be more heavily subsidised.

That being said the artificially high fares here act as a capacity management tool. If it were cheap the existing crush loading seen on pt here would be worse.

The cheap fares could be off peak to start with if capacity is an issue.

CatInABox

They've taken down a load of bus stops along the Howth Rd, should be seeing the new poles going in over the next few days. I assume it's the infrastructure works for the H spine. Looking forward to seeing them.

Peregrine

CatInABox wrote: »

They've taken down a load of bus stops along the Howth Rd, should be seeing the new poles going in over the next few days. I assume it's the infrastructure works for the H spine. Looking forward to seeing them.

Yep. They'll do that for all the phases.

Peregrine

bk wrote: »

Also do you know when the N2 is supposed to be rolled out?

The O, N2, W2, W4 and W6 will now be rolled out in June 2022 alongside the G spine. That's pretty much all of the delays. Everything still on track after that.

C spine in October 2021 (one month behind schedule) and N4 and N6 in January 2022 as planned.

[Deleted User]

Is their a public list somewhere of planned rollout order & dates?

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

Is their a public list somewhere of planned rollout order & dates?

Just the results of FOI requests reported on twitter.

In summary next year is focussing on the orbitals - the S orbitals are due later next year if the original schedule is followed.

In 2021:
H Spine & associated radial route
C Spine & associated radial/local routes

In 2022:
N4/N6 Orbitals
G Spine & associated radial/local routes; O, N2, W2/W4/W6 Orbitals
S2/S4/S6 Orbitals (and probably L25 too)

In 2023:
F Spine & associated radial/local routes
E Spine & associated radial/local routes
D Spine & associated radial/local routes

In 2024:
A Spine & associated radial/local routes
B Spine & associated radial/local routes
Ranelagh radial routes

cgcsb

Peregrine wrote: »

The O, N2, W2, W4 and W6 will now be rolled out in June 2022 alongside the G spine. That's pretty much all of the delays. Everything still on track after that.

C spine in October 2021 (one month behind schedule) and N4 and N6 in January 2021 as planned.

Are N4 and N6 running now? I can't see any info on that. Thought that H was going to be the first and only one for a while.

Geuze

CatInABox wrote: »

They've taken down a load of bus stops along the Howth Rd, should be seeing the new poles going in over the next few days. I assume it's the infrastructure works for the H spine. Looking forward to seeing them.

Sorry for asking, as this question has probably been answered already.

Does BusConnects mean a change in the number / location / spacing of bus stops along a route?

AFAIK, Dublin has too many bus stops.

Does BusConnects mean that every bus stop will have a unique name, and that the name will be displayed at the bus stop?

[Deleted User]

2024 at the earliest for the A routes? Oh lordy.

Peregrine

cgcsb wrote: »

Are N4 and N6 running now? I can't see any info on that. Thought that H was going to be the first and only one for a while.

Sorry, January 2022.

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

2024 at the earliest for the A routes? Oh lordy.

Bear in mind that this all involves a lot of extra buses as well a complete rescheduling of the entire bus service across the city (which is a very intense and specialised process).

There's an article on it here:

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/busconnects-dublin-new-routes-launch-20564130

[Deleted User]

Is that true for the A1? Given the existing frequency/24 hour nature of the 15, it's not actually going to involve many more buses or much scheduling changes surely? And similar for the 16!

I had actually thought that this would have made the A routes one of the first to be rolled out.

Peregrine

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is their a public list somewhere of planned rollout order & dates?

They haven't published anything but I did get this list. It doesn't include the non-spine radial routes which will be rolled out alongside the spines.

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

Is that true for the A1? Given the existing frequency/24 hour nature of the 15, it's not actually going to involve many more buses or much scheduling changes surely? And similar for the 16!

I had actually thought that this would have made the A routes one of the first to be rolled out.

The whole process involves a completely different approach to scheduling for Dublin Bus.

It involves fixed stop-by-stop schedules along the entire route rather than the current process whereby officially the only schedules are the departure times and driver handover points.

The timings that deliver the RTPI times currently are regularly changed by Dublin Bus in the background to reflect the changing traffic conditions so that buses keep moving.

Now they will operate like GAI, with every stop having a fixed time, and buses may wait at certain stops if they are early. That's a massive change in the process and will require significantly more detailed work than current processes. Scheduling is a very specialised task.

It also involves coming up with integrated schedules between the routes for every stop along the core element of each spine so that there is an even headway along the section where all of the spine routes operate.

Therefore, none of the spines are not going to be straightforward as that has to be married up with driver rosters and breaks, and make sure that the latter are in compliance with the EU Working Time directive.

The H Spine is the simplest to start with - it involves the least amount of change in terms of routes, isn't cross-city and allows DB to get a handle on the new processes with the routes all being along the Howth Road.

After that the C & G spines are probably the next easiest as they generally involve one corridor (Lucan and Ballyfermot) with Sandymount added into the C Spine, but also involve quite a few local routes too.

Implementing the orbital network is probably far more important at that point than additional spines, as they are the missing part of the network which will offer far more journeys around the city than currently available.

Beyond that, all the other spines are north/south ones through the city centre and each will impact on two corridors (one north of the river, one south), which means if they get it wrong, the impact is much greater. I don't think that any one of spines A, B, D, E or F are easier than any other if I'm honest.

The A Spine is not just the A1 though - there's the A2, A3, A4, A9 too, and then also associated various radial, peak and local routes on both sides of the city. As indeed are all the other ones.