Pieta

Patrick2010 · 09-05-2021 10:48am #1

Saw 6 million euro was raised yesterday for Pieta to prevent suicide. I looked but can’t see how this money is spent or how much their executives earn, does anyone know?

biko · 09-05-2021 10:52am

Sinn Féin spokesperson for Mental Health, Mark Ward TD, has questioned the high salaries of the management of Pieta House. The salaries of the top six earners combined are in excess of €500,000 per annum; with the CEO being paid a salary of €120,000 plus benefits.

It has also been revealed that Pieta House will pay €420,000 in redundancies this year and had been running at loss pre-Covid.

“I am shocked to find out that the CEO of Pieta earns a €120,000 per annum, rising to almost €150,000 after benefits.

“I also received information from some self-employed therapists who had contacted me and other members of my party that counsellors only charge Pieta €24 per hour, yet the State is funding Pieta to the tune of €1,146 per hour.

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/59493

lawred2 · 09-05-2021 10:54am

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Saw 6 million euro was raised yesterday for Pieta to prevent suicide. I looked but can’t see how this money is spent or how much their executives earn, does anyone know?

Another gravy train

09-05-2021 10:55am

120k for a CEO is very low, especially considering the profile of the charity.

I presume the permanently outraged will be up soon, but you’d make that easy in Dublin working in law/accounting/medicine/specialised IT etc.

Nothing to see here. That Mark Ward lad must have little to do.

lawred2 · 09-05-2021 10:56am

biko wrote: »

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/59493

“Pieta also availed of the wage subsidy scheme"

Nice

Professor Moriarty · 09-05-2021 11:00am

Deleted User wrote: »

120k for a CEO is very low, especially considering the profile of the charity.

I presume the permanently outraged will be up soon, but you’d make that easy in Dublin working in law/accounting/medicine/specialised IT etc.

Nothing to see here. That Mark Ward lad must have little to do.

Yeah. Let's get someone highly qualified and very experienced to manage an organisation employing 200 people across 13 centres throughout Ireland. Let's pay the minimum wage. It'll be grand.

PCeeeee · 09-05-2021 11:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

120k for a CEO is very low, especially considering the profile of the charity.

I presume the permanently outraged will be up soon, but you’d make that easy in Dublin working in law/accounting/medicine/specialised IT etc.

Nothing to see here. That Mark Ward lad must have little to do.

What percentage of people in Ireland make that kind of money or above it was the question I asked myself when you posted.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/

That kind of wage puts you in the 97th percentile for salaries (2018 data admittedly), it would seem that as easy as you think it is to make that only 3 people in an hundred in Ireland manage to do it.

SSeanSS · 09-05-2021 11:06am

The basic salary of a backbench TD is €96,189. I’d quieten down if i were him.

Smee_Again · 09-05-2021 11:09am

PCeeeee wrote: »

What percentage of people in Ireland make that kind of money or above it was the question I asked myself when you posted.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/

That kind of wage puts you in the 97th percentile for salaries (2018 data admittedly), it would seem that as easy as you think it is to make that only 3 people in an hundred in Ireland manage to do it.

How many people in Ireland manage a business with annual income of over €13m.

I don’t have much time for charities but if we’re going to use them to provide much needed services then we need properly qualified people to run them.

Beechwoodspark · 09-05-2021 11:10am

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Saw 6 million euro was raised yesterday for Pieta to prevent suicide. I looked but can’t see how this money is spent or how much their executives earn, does anyone know?

I just HOPE that pieta is being run responsibly

They have a huge presence now in society

Beechwoodspark · 09-05-2021 11:12am

lawred2 wrote: »

Another gravy train

A friend said similar to me yesterday evening

09-05-2021 11:13am

PCeeeee wrote: »

What percentage of people in Ireland make that kind of money or above it was the question I asked myself when you posted.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/distribution/

That kind of wage puts you in the 97th percentile for salaries (2018 data admittedly), it would seem that as easy as you think it is to make that only 3 people in an hundred in Ireland manage to do it.

See the post about. If you run a charity that has multiple centres, fund raising activities, staff etc then you aren’t going to get Mike who drives a forklift down the hardware store to run it.

120k sounds very cheap tbh.

PCeeeee · 09-05-2021 11:13am

Smee_Again wrote: »

How many people in Ireland manage a business with annual income of over €13m.

I don’t have much time for charities but if we’re going to use them to provide much needed services then we need properly qualified people to run them.

I don't disagree, I'm refuting the idea that a 120k salary is common place. If the discussion proceeds from there then it is clear the CEO and the other 4 high earners wages are in fact appropriate.

PCeeeee · 09-05-2021 11:14am

Deleted User wrote: »

See the post about. If you run a charity that has multiple centres, fund raising activities, staff etc then you aren’t going to get Mike who drives a forklift down the hardware store to run it.

120k sounds very cheap tbh.

No one suggested that?

09-05-2021 11:16am

SSeanSS wrote: »

The basic salary of a backbench TD is €96,189. I’d quieten down if i were him.

His party also own at least 50 properties down here. They could donate one or two of them to Pieta if they were feeling generous.

Running a charity involved in suicide prevention for 120k is being on the gravy train! Jesus, some people don’t live in the real world at all. For them it’s a world where everything is terrible, a scam, and people are out to rip society off.

Joke

Smee_Again · 09-05-2021 11:16am

PCeeeee wrote: »

I don't disagree, I'm refuting the idea that a 120k salary is common place. If the discussion proceeds from there then it is clear the CEO and the other 4 high earners wages are in fact appropriate.

Ah, fair enough. It’s not commonplace but it’s not outlandish for the work either.

09-05-2021 11:17am

PCeeeee wrote: »

No one suggested that?

How much should the CEO of a large charity make in your opinion?

PCeeeee · 09-05-2021 11:18am

Smee_Again wrote: »

Ah, fair enough. It’s not commonplace but it’s not outlandish for the work either.

Exactly, I think it's fair to discuss it.

Bannasidhe · 09-05-2021 11:19am

Smee_Again wrote: »

How many people in Ireland manage a business with annual income of over €13m.

I don’t have much time for charities but if we’re going to use them to provide much needed services then we need properly qualified people to run them.

It's not supposed to be a 'business'.
It's a charity reliant on money from the State and donations.

Elaine Austin the CEO came from Bank of Ireland - an organisation well known for it's charitable work and involvement in mental health issues.

The qualified people - i.e. those providing the services are on as little as €25k.

Pieta House in another Rehab. Rich pickings for those at the top whose main skill is signing application forms for grant aid, and exploitation of those doing the actual work.

PCeeeee · 09-05-2021 11:20am

Deleted User wrote: »

How much should the CEO of a large charity make in your opinion?

I actually have no idea. I would have to understand their role and what their abilities bring in terms of added value.

duffman13 · 09-05-2021 11:21am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

120k for a CEO is very low, especially considering the profile of the charity.

I presume the permanently outraged will be up soon, but you’d make that easy in Dublin working in law/accounting/medicine/specialised IT etc.

Nothing to see here. That Mark Ward lad must have little to do.

He's actually a nice fella and done some good work locally in his area as a Councillor. I met him doing the doors for the last election and he had a very poor knowledge of anything and his messaging was populist nonsense. O'Broin is a different level and very articulate. Sinn Fein need better quality candidates for the Dail though, Ward is a reasonably good Councillor but way out of his depth on the national scene. Given himself and Gino Kenny are two of the local reps, he's still probably not the worst person from Dublin Mid West in the Dail

Pieta is local so I can see why he brings it up even if its a bit naive

Edit: Maybe not so naive, surprised at the redundancy situation, would hope its top earners and not front line staff but wouldn't be shocked if it's a huge reduction in services

Meeoow · 09-05-2021 11:22am

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Saw 6 million euro was raised yesterday for Pieta to prevent suicide. I looked but can’t see how this money is spent or how much their executives earn, does anyone know?

You can Google pieta house accounts. All their years accounts are downloadable. Same with most charities. It's shocking how little goes where it should go. That is why I don't give to them.

HBC08 · 09-05-2021 11:23am

biko wrote: »

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/59493

Sinn Fein are insulting peoples intelligence with this sort of nonsense.

Meanwhile back in the real world that's a modest salary for a CEO of such an organisation.

If they want to get outraged about people's salaries look at Tubridy or John Delaney before him.

09-05-2021 11:23am

Well if they can prevent a few people from taking their own lives and all the devastation that follows for those families then I don't care where the money goes..

Professor Moriarty · 09-05-2021 11:25am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's not supposed to be a 'business'.
It's a charity reliant on money from the State and donations.

Elaine Austin the CEO came from Bank of Ireland - an organisation well known for it's charitable work and involvement in mental health issues.

The qualified people - i.e. those providing the services are on as little as €25k.

Pieta House in another Rehab. Rich pickings for those at the top whose main skill is signing application forms for grant aid, and exploitation of those doing the actual work.

Christ. They are not qualified or experienced to be CEO of Pieta House. Nor would they want the responsibility. This is simplistic nonsense.

Smee_Again · 09-05-2021 11:32am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's not supposed to be a 'business'.
It's a charity reliant on money from the State and donations.

Elaine Austin the CEO came from Bank of Ireland - an organisation well known for it's charitable work and involvement in mental health issues.

The qualified people - i.e. those providing the services are on as little as €25k.

Pieta House in another Rehab. Rich pickings for those at the top whose main skill is signing application forms for grant aid, and exploitation of those doing the actual work.

Nonsense you need qualified people in all positions. A therapist won’t have the skills to oversee a budget of that size. Just like the CEO won’t have the skills to deal with a suicidal patient.

The issue you’ve highlighted isn’t the CEO’s salary, it’s the low salary for the therapists and counsellors (I’m not sure what their correct title is so apologies if it’s something else).

hawley · 09-05-2021 11:35am

Smee_Again wrote: »

Nonsense you need qualified people in all positions. A therapist won’t have the skills to oversee a budget of that size. Just like the CEO won’t have the skills to deal with a suicidal patient.

The issue you’ve highlighted isn’t the CEO’s salary, it’s the low salary for the therapists and counsellors (I’m not sure what their correct title is so apologies if it’s something else).

Because people who worked in Irish banking are excellent at managing their budgets.

zerosugarbuzz · 09-05-2021 11:36am

Deleted User wrote: »

120k for a CEO is very low, especially considering the profile of the charity.

I presume the permanently outraged will be up soon, but you’d make that easy in Dublin working in law/accounting/medicine/specialised IT etc.

Nothing to see here. That Mark Ward lad must have little to do.

Depends on many factors. Previous experience and success of the CEO. current achievements and contributions to the role. Also take into account the generous mileage, car allowance, health care, pension plan and the 120 salary is very much exceeded.

Cal4567 · 09-05-2021 11:37am

lawred2 wrote: »

“Pieta also availed of the wage subsidy scheme"

Nice

Not to do with Pieta specifically, but I reminded of the fair few charities that availed of the now forgotten Job bridge scheme back a decade ago. No media outrage but I remember real jobs being withdrawn and being re-advertised, with some minor changes as Job bridge. OK, a lot of these was done by private companies but a fair few charities did the same.

As it is politely referred to - the optics don't look good. The inference is that organisations who don't need to, availing of these advantages.

Bannasidhe · 09-05-2021 11:38am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Christ. They are not qualified or experienced to be CEO of Pieta House. Nor would they want the responsibility. This is simplistic nonsense.

And a banker is qualified to run a charity how exactly?
What qualifications in the provision of mental health services are gained while re-organising a bailed out bank?

Simplistic nonsense me hole. There is a cadre of 'CEO's' who move from highly paid job to highly paid job - Paul Reid is another example - with feck all actual experience in the field in which we are told they are 'highly qualified'.

The point of Pieta House is meant to be the provision of qualified help to vulnerable people - to do this they require qualified psychotherapists but are reluctant to pay them a decent wage.

Smee_Again · 09-05-2021 11:41am

hawley wrote: »

Because people who worked in Irish banking are excellent at managing their budgets.

Some are, some obviously weren’t. BOI were one of the better Irish banks at it.

Besides you can’t blame everyone who worked in banking with collapse. I doubt Elaine Austin in her HR role during the lead up to the crash had much influence in the bank needing a government (don’t call it a) bailout.

One eyed Jack · 09-05-2021 11:42am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How much should the CEO of a large charity make in your opinion?

Zero. The clue is in the type of organisation it is - a charity. Plenty of much larger voluntary organisations than Pieta where the management are volunteers, and the staff are volunteers, all qualified in what they do.

€100k salaries attract figureheads, it says nothing about their ability to manage a charity organisation.

Patrick2010 · 09-05-2021 11:42am

No one has said what they actually do. I asked the question because we all saw where the Bothar money went.

Professor Moriarty · 09-05-2021 11:44am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And a banker is qualified to run a charity how exactly?
What qualifications in the provision of mental health services are gained while re-organising a bailed out bank?

Simplistic nonsense me hole. There is a cadre of 'CEO's' who move from highly paid job to highly paid job - Paul Reid is another example - with feck all actual experience in the field in which we are told they are 'highly qualified'.

The point of Pieta House is meant to be the provision of qualified help to vulnerable people - to do this they require qualified psychotherapists but are reluctant to pay them a decent wage.

If you think you will get someone capable of managing an organisation of 200 people with 13 centres for less than 120k pa, then you don't know what you are talking about. I'll leave you at it.

shtpEdthePlum · 09-05-2021 11:46am

A former colleague confided in me that they were basically turfed out the door when they accessed Pieta two years ago. Having been referred by a counselling service in work as they mentioned that they have suicidal thoughts, they had two sessions and the therapist started to discuss discharge.

This person as far as I'm aware has huge stress at home and I believe they are a very subtle drug user. They mentioned it to me years ago, and later said would be afraid to mention this to a professional in case of any repercussions which would follow them in their career (as they feel they have a handle on it, but how much of a handle can you really have on a damaging addiction). They also engage in low level self-injurious behaviour. I don't know how they were discharged so soon. They would be one of the people still majorly on my radar to watch out for.

I know six men and four women (I was very close with one) in the area I live who have committed suicide since 2018.

On this basis, I feel that the service provided by Pieta House is not for for purpose and only acts as lip service which is ineffective in this worsening mental health crisis we're in.

Bannasidhe · 09-05-2021 11:48am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you think you will get someone capable of managing an organisation of 200 people with 13 centres for less than 120k pa, then you don't know what you are talking about. I'll leave you at it.

If you think the CEO is involved in the day to day organisation of 200 people and the running of 13 centres you don't know what you are talking about. I'll leave you at it.

lawred2 · 09-05-2021 11:49am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you think you will get someone capable of managing an organisation of 200 people with 13 centres for less than 120k pa, then you don't know what you are talking about. I'll leave you at it.

The heist is that these charities are needed in the first place. That 500k while maybe "well spent" in the context of a the individuals involved and their abilities is still 500k that should be spent by the state through the already middle management and admin heavy HSE on 15 - 20 councillors.

13m revenue. Christ. 13m would be pocket change to the HSE. Yet how many councillors and team leads would that pay for in the HSE!?

We're complete mugs.

One eyed Jack · 09-05-2021 11:53am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you think you will get someone capable of managing an organisation of 200 people with 13 centres for less than 120k pa, then you don't know what you are talking about. I'll leave you at it.

There are plenty of people who could manage a small organisation of 200 people with 13 centres and would do so on a voluntary basis. They can easily be got. Pieta doesn’t want to get them, what Pieta wants (and I can’t say I blame them) is to increase their public profile, in order to bring in more funding from the public and the HSE. They opened a branch in New York a couple of years ago, funded in part by the Irish Government.

They are an example of a charity organisation that appears to have forgotten what the word charity means, in favour of operating the organisation like a pyramid scheme.

Professor Moriarty · 09-05-2021 11:54am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If you think the CEO is involved in the day to day organisation of 200 people and the running of 13 centres you don't know what you are talking about. I'll leave you at it.

Christ. You thought this was about her ringing 200 people every week to see how they are getting on. that explains a lot. She's the CEO. She reports to a board. She is taking RESPONSIBILITY for the management of 200 people and 13 centres. It is her fault completely whatever goes wrong. But let's pay her the average wage. Fcuk me, it's like trying to explain it to a child.

Professor Moriarty · 09-05-2021 11:56am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There are plenty of people who could manage a small organisation of 200 people with 13 centres and would do so on a voluntary basis. They can easily be got. Pieta doesn’t want to get them, what Pieta wants (and I can’t say I blame them) is to increase their public profile, in order to bring in more funding from the public and the HSE. They opened a branch in New York a couple of years ago, funded in part by the Irish Government.

They are an example of a charity organisation that appears to have forgotten what the word charity means, in favour of operating the organisation like a pyramid scheme.

No there's not.

One eyed Jack · 09-05-2021 11:58am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Christ. You thought this was about her ringing 200 people every week to see how they are getting on. that explains a lot. She's the CEO. She reports to a board. She is taking RESPONSIBILITY for the management of 200 people and 13 centres. It is her fault completely whatever goes wrong. But let's pay her the average wage. Fcuk me, it's like trying to explain it to a child.

It’s completely up to the organisation whatever they want to pay their CEOs, but this argument that a good CEO can’t be got for less than €100k is something I’d expect a CEO who just fancies the title to say, because their salary says nothing about anyone’s ability as a CEO.

karlitob · 09-05-2021 11:59am

Smee_Again wrote: »

How many people in Ireland manage a business with annual income of over €13m.

I don’t have much time for charities but if we’re going to use them to provide much needed services then we need properly qualified people to run them.

What qualifications do they have?

If a ceo of a €13m business earns €120k. How much should the ceo of the HSE which is a €20bn business, the largest organisation in the state, the largest employer in the state be paid?

CEOs of the model 4 hospitals in ireland earn €120k
CEOs of the model 3, model 2 hospitals earns €80k
CEOs of the small section 38s - which is what pieta is more or less like - is €60k.

Are you saying that the ceo of pieta should earn the same as the ceo of St. James’s hospital - the largest hospital in the state with 4400 staff and incredibly complex services - inc inpatient and outpatient psychiatric services.

The charities sectors in Ireland has over 8000 bodies at a cost of some billion most of which was supplied by government. Which is impossible to manage. Because of a lack of transparency the charities regulator had to be set up.

On the other side of that - only 1% of charities staff are paid >€80k.

screamer · 09-05-2021 12:03pm

I don’t think the amount paid for the CEO is the issue, it’s the value for money. In a lot of cases ( not pieta) we’ve seen utter corruption in charity organisation, and it seems the high paid are there to only line their own pockets on top of the salary they pay themselves.

Professor Moriarty · 09-05-2021 12:03pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s completely up to the organisation whatever they want to pay their CEOs, but this argument that a good CEO can’t be got for less than €100k is something I’d expect a CEO who just fancies the title to say, because their salary says nothing about anyone’s ability as a CEO.

Here's the problem. You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. You can't just pluck Joe Bloggs off the assembly line and give him the responsibility of running the factory. Suitably qualified and experienced people won't take the responsibility of running a large organisation without commensurate pay. So you pay someone suitably qualified and experienced or you employ someone who isn't suitably qualified and experienced.

Gatling · 09-05-2021 12:06pm

It's the same as off the homeless charities based in Dublin making a killing off donations and having voulenteers walk around the street for a few hours carrying flasks ,

Cluedo Monopoly · 09-05-2021 12:06pm

I think using the title CEO isn't ideal. It suggests a business first and charity second.
I think General Manager or Managing Director works better.

Smee_Again · 09-05-2021 12:08pm

karlitob wrote: »

What qualifications do they have?

If a ceo of a €13m business earns €120k. How much should the ceo of the HSE which is a €20bn business, the largest organisation in the state, the largest employer in the state be paid?

CEOs of the model 4 hospitals in ireland earn €120k
CEOs of the model 3, model 2 hospitals earns €80k
CEOs of the small section 38s - which is what pieta is more or less like - is €60k.

Are you saying that the ceo of pieta should earn the same as the ceo of St. James’s hospital - the largest hospital in the state with 4400 staff and incredibly complex services - inc inpatient and outpatient psychiatric services.

The charities sectors in Ireland has over 8000 bodies at a cost of some billion most of which was supplied by government. Which is impossible to manage. Because of a lack of transparency the charities regulator had to be set up.

On the other side of that - only 1% of charities staff are paid >€80k.

CEO of James’ sounds underpaid to be honest.

I know a retired school principal who was on €120K when he retired about 10 years ago.

It’d be better if these services were provided by the HSE, it’s a scandal that the charities are needed, but if that is how we are going to fund them then salaries like this to administrate everything are needed.

karlitob · 09-05-2021 12:11pm

lawred2 wrote: »

The heist is that these charities are needed in the first place. That 500k while maybe "well spent" in the context of a the individuals involved and their abilities is still 500k that should be spent by the state through the already middle management and admin heavy HSE on 15 - 20 councillors.

13m revenue. Christ. 13m would be pocket change to the HSE. Yet how many councillors and team leads would that pay for in the HSE!?

We're complete mugs.

Midpoint on the salary scale for counsellor therapist is 55€k plus 11.5% Employer prsi and presuming 5% non pay costs is €64k is 203 counsellors.

The HSE is not admin heavy. 1.5% are in the nefarious ‘management’. The NHS - according to the kings fund has 3.7% and their analysis culminates in the following ‘our analysis seems to suggest that the nhs - particularly given the complexity of health care - is under-, rather than over-managed.

We need more managers in the HSE. Not less.

Richard Hillman · 09-05-2021 12:12pm

Pieta have been a bit of a sham in recent years. I have never done the walk but would be sympathetic to what they were doing.

As usual though, the bigger the charity gets, the more business orientated they become and essentially lose the origins of what they started as.

The problem with these NGOs is that the bigger they become the more public funding they get. And there is absolutely no chance a government would be able to cut or reduce funding without screeching from the media. NGO funding is becoming perpetual and bleeding the country dry.

_Kaiser_ · 09-05-2021 12:13pm

RTE R1 news a few minutes ago said they've collected €7 million so far for Darkness into Light (up on the €5 million they were forecasting), with the ability to donate still open. Final total expected this week apparently.

I wonder will they give a breakdown of where that money will go, but I'd guess not. As others here have said, too many of these big "headline" charities are not passing the money to where it needs to be.

zerosugarbuzz · 09-05-2021 12:13pm

Meeoow wrote: »

You can Google pieta house accounts. All their years accounts are downloadable. Same with most charities. It's shocking how little goes where it should go. That is why I don't give to them.

Completely agree, most seem to spend in excess of 70% of their revenue on running costs which is insane. The well known homeless charities and Drug Treatment Charities are also guilty of this.

Pieta

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